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Originally Posted by Ryan Bean
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Maybe the point was the life in his Avatar body was the only one worth living and the only one he wanted to live. But yeah.
I was wondering how they'd deal with the whole death-of-your-Avatar thing... looks like it freaked nerdy scientist out something fierce but no lasting harm.

The second time I saw the film, the scene where his avatar gets shot looks like he simply gets shot in the upper arm and shoulder, not a fatal chest shot. So maybe he didn't die and get kicked out, maybe he got shot, passed out, and returned to his own body same as if he'd fallen asleep.
I was thinking about the Matrix during that scene and was wondering if the consciousness is what mattered. That is, if they thought they were dead while in their Avatar, they actually died in their "real" body.

I also don't really understand how the humans got any sleep. When they are in their Avatars, sure their bodies are resting, but their brains are active. I guess one could say they are dreaming, but the transfer of consciousness suggest that they are fully awake just in their Avatar body. And when the Avatar is "sleeping", the human "driver" is awake. So how are Jake and the others functioning normally? There brains have to get some rest.
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Originally Posted by Bucho
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Yeah, I had fun with the spectacle but I did feel much the same as you about all that dramatic stuff. And also there was something about the fact that for most of the film it never felt like Jake was in mortal danger while he was galavanting about in his Avatar that seriously detracted from the stakes of his precarious actions and dampened the drama quite a bit. Say what you will about the flaws in Dances With Wolves and The Last Samurai but at least those guys face real swords and arrows in their own vulnerable human skin, not in a remote controlled drone body.

That really bothered me-- it would have been really easy to establish early on that the death of an avatar also results in the death of the operator through some technological bullshit, and while that would have really called back to, say, The Matrix, it would have at least levied some risk on Jake's and Norm's parts in the Epic CGI Battle at the end. Like Nooj said, everything felt far too easy. For me, rushed as well. I expected to see Jake wrangle the Toruk. Seeing that carried out, I think, was pretty important dramatically.

But Cameron didn't make Avatar as a dramatic exercise. It's a technological one. The only reason there's any drama whatsoever (however anorexic and undeveloped) is because without it there's nothing to prop the tech wizardry upon.

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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
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The second time I saw the film, the scene where his avatar gets shot looks like he simply gets shot in the upper arm and shoulder, not a fatal chest shot. So maybe he didn't die and get kicked out, maybe he got shot, passed out, and returned to his own body same as if he'd fallen asleep.

I hated that-- his avatar's death should have a) been a fucking death and not a flesh wound, and b) been a huge point of focus for the movie. If Avatar doesn't kill its operators when their avatars die, then at least we should know what the operator feels when that happens. Can you imagine experiencing someone else's death? This is where the film dropped the ball in a big way for me-- if avatar death doesn't lead to operator death, then we should understand what the operator feels when their avatar gets killed.

Ultimately, for me, Norm's resolution is one of the worst pieces of writing in the entire movie. Cameron might as well have included nothing involving Norm at all in the end.
It seemed like when their avatar went to sleep and they were taken out of the chamber, they would go to sleep in the real world.
Stop thinking so hard ya'll! And go wit da flow!
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Originally Posted by mcnooj82
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Stop thinking so hard ya'll! And go wit da flow!

A friend of mine told me that I didn't need to be so cerebral about the film.

Disapproving sigh.
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Originally Posted by Bucho
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And also there was something about the fact that for most of the film it never felt like Jake was in mortal danger while he was galavanting about in his Avatar that seriously detracted from the stakes of his precarious actions and dampened the drama quite a bit.

I'll concede this point.
Trudy is the real hero of the movie.

Anyway, I believe in the original scripment there was a character gone mad for the death of his avatar. Surely this could be expanded in the sequel.
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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
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It seemed like when their avatar went to sleep and they were taken out of the chamber, they would go to sleep in the real world.

I don't recall that, but it seems plausible. I recall Jake coming out of the chamber, doing his video log, and Weaver's character telling him to eat and get some rest.
Quote:

Originally Posted by danko
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Anyway, I believe in the original scripment there was a character gone mad for the death of his avatar. Surely this could be expanded in the sequel.

They should just start off Avatar 2 with this classic bit of cinema.
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Originally Posted by Diva
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I was thinking about the Matrix during that scene and was wondering if the consciousness is what mattered. That is, if they thought they were dead while in their Avatar, they actually died in their "real" body.

I also don't really understand how the humans got any sleep. When they are in their Avatars, sure their bodies are resting, but their brains are active. I guess one could say they are dreaming, but the transfer of consciousness suggest that they are fully awake just in their Avatar body. And when the Avatar is "sleeping", the human "driver" is awake. So how are Jake and the others functioning normally? There brains have to get some rest.

#1 Effort was made to show how poorly Jake's real world body/mind was reacting to his extended stays in Naavi-dom. He (rightfully) looked like an addict by the end.
#2 any neurophysiologists on chud?

Quote:

Originally Posted by agracru
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That really bothered me-- it would have been really easy to establish early on that the death of an avatar also results in the death of the operator through some technological bullshit, and while that would have really called back to, say, The Matrix, it would have at least levied some risk on Jake's and Norm's parts in the Epic CGI Battle at the end. Like Nooj said, everything felt far too easy. For me, rushed as well. I expected to see Jake wrangle the Toruk. Seeing that carried out, I think, was pretty important dramatically.

But Cameron didn't make Avatar as a dramatic exercise. It's a technological one. The only reason there's any drama whatsoever (however anorexic and undeveloped) is because without it there's nothing to prop the tech wizardry upon.



I hated that-- his avatar's death should have a) been a fucking death and not a flesh wound, and b) been a huge point of focus for the movie. If Avatar doesn't kill its operators when their avatars die, then at least we should know what the operator feels when that happens. Can you imagine experiencing someone else's death? This is where the film dropped the ball in a big way for me-- if avatar death doesn't lead to operator death, then we should understand what the operator feels when their avatar gets killed.

Ultimately, for me, Norm's resolution is one of the worst pieces of writing in the entire movie. Cameron might as well have included nothing involving Norm at all in the end.

I actually liked the decision to not show Jake wrangling the Toruk. An extended, boring, 10 minute wrangling sequence feels like something Lucas would jump at.

And the film showed Norm freaking the fuck out after he 'died', did it not? It's not like he was like ok oh well. I imagine it would have been a lot worse if he hadn't be so pumped on battle adrenaline, too.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Diva
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I don't recall that, but it seems plausible. I recall Jake coming out of the chamber, doing his video log, and Weaver's character telling him to eat and get some rest.

Which kind of implies sleep, doesn't it?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean
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And the film showed Norm freaking the fuck out after he 'died', did it not? It's not like he was like ok oh well. I imagine it would have been a lot worse if he hadn't be so pumped on battle adrenaline, too.

It looked more like "Holy shit I got shot!" to me. But it could have been elaborated on either way.
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Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
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Which kind of implies sleep, doesn't it?

Right, I'm saying your post makes sense.
Ah, gotcha.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean
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I actually liked the decision to not show Jake wrangling the Toruk. An extended, boring, 10 minute wrangling sequence feels like something Lucas would jump at.

And the film showed Norm freaking the fuck out after he 'died', did it not? It's not like he was like ok oh well. I imagine it would have been a lot worse if he hadn't be so pumped on battle adrenaline, too.

Given that bonding with a Toruk is such a big damn deal in Na'vi culture, I think seeing him subdue it and master it is pretty important, too. Only five Na'vi have ever done it. Jake does it with a single fade-to-black. I think my disappoint stems from the build-up and mystique surrounding the Toruk and those who have bonded with it in the past; we're given all of these juicy details, and then Jake just sort of gets it.

And yeah, we see Norm freak out after being shot, but for all of five seconds. I'd hardly call that a respectable attempt at exploring the relationship shared between the operator and the avatar. Like the Toruk scene, I wanted more out of it.
Quote:

Originally Posted by agracru
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Given that bonding with a Toruk is such a big damn deal in Na'vi culture, I think seeing him subdue it and master it is pretty important, too. Only five Na'vi have ever done it. Jake does it with a single fade-to-black. I think my disappoint stems from the build-up and mystique surrounding the Toruk and those who have bonded with it in the past; we're given all of these juicy details, and then Jake just sort of gets it.

But he was a Marine. OoRah!!! And... destiny... something... prophecy... something...
They already had the ikran one. Doing it again would have been way too superflous in an already long movie.
If anything, I wouldn't have even shown that much of him tracking down and jumping on the toruk. Showing him flying up to it and leaping down on to it doesn't leave a lot of doubt that he's going to be successful.
The home video release should have the blurb, "Takin' it to the next level has never been easier! Only $29.99!"
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Originally Posted by neoolong
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They already had the ikran one. Doing it again would have been way too superflous in an already long movie.

So why show him tracking it at all? Why not just hint at what Jake's scheme to regain the trust of the Na'vi is instead (as Dickson suggested)? With all of the lead-in to it, the resolution feels like a giant cop-out/Cameron being lazy.

I normally wouldn't care this much about something so arguably minuscule, but this is so much the case with the rest of the movie, too.
I just want the damn director's cut, or whatever they end up calling it. There will be 5 DVD/Blu versions of the film before that one sees release, no doubt.

I'm kind of hoping an extended version will have some more caricaturization and maybe something more... interesting, for lack of a better word, with the humans. Then again it might just all be bloat/unnecessary like the colonist stuff with Newt's family from the Aliens DC.
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Originally Posted by Nexus-7
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I'm kind of hoping an extended version will have some more caricaturization

They were already caricatures!

(Sorry, I'll leave now, I promise...)
Haha nice. Firefox spellcheck failed me and I was rushing.
Quote:

Originally Posted by agracru
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So why show him tracking it at all? Why not just hint at what Jake's scheme to regain the trust of the Na'vi is instead (as Dickson suggested)? With all of the lead-in to it, the resolution feels like a giant cop-out/Cameron being lazy.

Because people are stupid and need most things spelled out for them.
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Originally Posted by Troy Nixey
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I'm curious why you think this wasn't the director's cut? Has Jim said anywhere that he left some stuff on the proverbial cutting room floor?

Yes, yes he has.
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Originally Posted by Troy Nixey
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I'm curious why you think this wasn't the director's cut? Has Jim said anywhere that he left some stuff on the proverbial cutting room floor?

The shooting script they put out for Oscar purposes was shot.

ETA: "Shot" is probably the wrong word for this movie.
If there's a longer cut released later, you guys know you're just getting squeezed for more money, right? In what world does Cameron not have final cut?
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Originally Posted by Phil
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If there's a longer cut released later, you guys know you're just getting squeezed for more money, right? In what world does Cameron not have final cut?

He did. And basically every "director's cut" is not a director's cut.
The Abyss was probably the last time Cameron was pressured to deliver something other than what he wanted.
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Originally Posted by neoolong
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Because people are stupid and need most things spelled out for them.

...touche, good sir.
I think "director's cut" has just become shorthand for "extended cut" or "home video version," or whatever. Just because Cameron (likely) has final cut on his flicks doesn't mean he doesn't make painful concessions to commercial viability.

As much as I dug the theatrical version, Devin's piece about the shooting script has me salivating for an extended cut.
Looks like the PHANTOM MENACE guy reviewed AVATAR.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJarz7BYnHA

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLzKwTcGO_0

Particularly great moment: at one point he compares it to the Garbage Pail Kids.
Probably the fact that this review was 20 minutes as opposed to an hour, but found him much easier to tolerate this time.

And he's dead on.
He's dead on, even with the Garbage Pail Kids comparison..
Love the image of Cameron as a snake oil huckster.