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THE DARK KNIGHT RISES Post-release thread..... - Printable Version

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- d.s. randlett - 03-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post

Aside from not finding Azzarello that particularly good of a writer, I think the recasting of the amazons in the "correct" mythical sense of man-hating sexual predators who kill their lovers and raise the female children to be really fucking horrid. Like the excuse is that he's being faithful to greek mythology* but it's recasting a really positive depiction of an exclusively female culture with a tired depiction of dick-severing man-haters.

I understand this criticism, and accept it to some extent, but I don't think that that's his intent. Within the context of his run, he more or less uses that as a means to "de-idealize" the Amazons for Wonder Woman, as the key conceit of the story is basically how she has to build up her identity after some key bits of it have been shattered (The new knowledge of her lineage, etc). Does it work? Not entirely in that specific instance, as I think it works somewhat from a character-centric perspective of his story, but that he should have taken more of what the WW version of Amazons meant outside of the story into account. As it stands that scene muddles Azzarello's themes unnecessarily (especially when that issue was brand new), but I think what he's shooting for is a vision of the Amazons as something more like the founding fathers: They did some great things and had some beautiful ideals, but they owned slaves. The question then becomes whether those ideals are still worth living up to, and that's what I think is at the center of his run and has made it worth following.

But then, I've never been a WW "fan", so those changes don't quite bristle so much.




- laurenortega - 03-28-2013

The amazons get progressively more militant the further you go along with the character. At the beginning the amazons really are this wonderful group of women who live in a feminine utopia and just want to stay away from the outside world in general. It's really George Perez(which is really the iconic run with the character) where the idea of amazons as WARRIORS with a few philosophers sprinkled throughout instead of the other way around.

And I think for the most part these authors had perfectly good intentions with this direction. Showing Wonder Woman as a warrior figure sounds like a pretty obvious thing on paper, but it actually robs her of the more unique role as problem-solver.




- laurenortega - 03-28-2013

Quote:
But then, I've never been a WW "fan", so those changes don't quite bristle so much.

I'm more of a "fan in theory' because I think most of Wonder Woman's history has really sucked.

The simple truth of the matter is that she might have been the first of the female heroes, but she's not exactly the figure of powerful feminism that she's been forced like a square peg into. She's more of a figure of real positive feminine values(Compassion, team-work, etc.) that Marston hoped would inspire readers somewhat way from the really repressed* male heroes that happened to be the rage.

It's why reading the old Wonder Woman comics are actually so fascinating, and why Grant Morrison's interest in them excites me. Authors kept trying to strip away or whitewash aspects of the character and that's always made her boring.

*And the overt BDSM play is totally the elephant in the room of Wonder Woman as a character. I think it's absolutely one of the most fascinating things about WW, because to some degree the overtness causes her to come across as easily the most healthy sexually of any early Superhero.




- laurenortega - 03-28-2013

Or basically this

http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2012/03/on-wonder-woman-7.html




- cylon baby - 03-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

Uh, no.

And that's with pants.

What is the problem? No cape to trip up in, no helmet or visor so she can only see what's directly in front of her, no heavy body armor making it hard to run or move. The only criticism I'd have was that the red in the custom is too bright.




- cylon baby - 03-28-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post

Found this on Google. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but for me it's in the ballpark.

<br />

..but I like this one better!




- ryoken - 03-28-2013

Ive always liked her costume for the battle against Medusa during Rucka's run:




- cylon baby - 03-28-2013

That costume looks like it would cut herself to ribbons every time she moves.




- jacknifejohnny - 03-28-2013

AWhen I was doing an outline for a WW script (that I dropped b/c I didn't create her, so it felt like fanfic) I was inspired by an NPR story about Middle Eastern immigrants who got a lot of their ideas about America from, and I'm being serious, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation (among other bits of popular entertainment). The part that really dug in deep is that said immigrants were shocked when they arrived and could not comprehend the idea of homelessness.

They didn't understand why we would allow people to sleep out in the cold and starve. In the outline I translated that experience for Diana. It was setup as a key scene, had nothing to do with kicking ass, and was meant to help illustrate the sharp difference between what the Amazons value and Western society.

That was Wonder Woman to me. Oh, and Dr. Poison was in it, and like Marston's version, she was genderqueer. For the life of me I had no idea what to do with Steve Trevor. He just kind of stewed about in the friendzone.


- freeman - 03-29-2013

So your version of Wonder Woman was the first half of the second act of Thor?




- jacknifejohnny - 03-29-2013

I have no clue what that means. I never saw Thor.




- bailey - 03-29-2013

I saw Thor and I have no clue what it means.  From what I remember the first part of the second act was all about enjoying pancakes.




- freeman - 03-29-2013

What I mean is the fish out of water adjusting to this new environment.  That's how Joss Whedon described his take on the character.  To be honest, every iteration of WW I've read or watched has been all about her adjusting to the reality of "man's world", so it's not exactly new territory.




- jacknifejohnny - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

What I mean is the fish out of water adjusting to this new environment.  That's how Joss Whedon described his take on the character.  To be honest, every iteration of WW I've read or watched has been all about her adjusting to the reality of "man's world", so it's not exactly new territory.

It wasn't about being a fish out of water, but about making a pointed statement about what her mission was to be and making a definitive statement about who she was. There were a handful of cultural "gags" in there, I guess, really only one that I can think of at the moment about her seeing massive billboards of supermodels in Times Square and inquiring if they were depictions of "our gods" and being subequently confounded by the explanation. I never really got that bit to go where I wanted it to go. It never stopped reading like something that would wind up on the cutting room floor in a finished film, but I intended to keep it based in character and not have a bunch a throwaway Austin Powers gags. It doesn't matter anyway, as I mentioned, I junked it because she's not mine, so I could never shake the fanfic feeling. Also, I like comics and all that, but I've long since managed to understand the difference between what I'd like to see and what I'd like to put energy into making.




- freeman - 03-29-2013

Fair enough.  I don't understand how in todays world Wonder Woman the movie doesn't exist.  I've said it a zillion times, the Whedon script, the WW2 script, the DC 2009 animated modern day origin story...  ALL of these are really, really cool movies waiting to happen on the big screen.  It's 300 meets a Marvel studios style movie, WHY is WB so fucking gun shy?  Was it really worth it to put Green Lantern into production for 300 million, but WW has to stay on the back burner because it's a female hero?  Ellen Ripley?  Sarah Connor?




- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

What is the problem? No cape to trip up in, no helmet or visor so she can only see what's directly in front of her, no heavy body armor making it hard to run or move. The only criticism I'd have was that the red in the custom is too bright.

And her tits would pop out when she fought....which I must admit would distract bad guys but I don't think that's what shes going for. Look I love leering women as much as any man (except in evil dirty boob threads!) and I don't want to destroy the costume but something that seems more practical would be nice.

It's one of the things that drove me nuts about Resident Evil 2. Well ok many things but this especially. They cut to a shot of a cop waking up. She turns on the tv and sees zombies running rampant and everyone is leaving town. She decides it's her duty to stay and fight the zombies. So what does she throw on? A tube top and a short skirt. Like they didn't catch her walking out of a club one night, she was at home. Now I get they are going for the video game vibe with the sexiness and attracting 13 year old boys but every time I was watching her do these elaborate karate moves all I kept thinking was "How does her top stay up?". Like girls just walking down the street have to pull them up every 2 minutes. Certainly you can find some kind of border between sexy and ridiculous.




- freeman - 03-29-2013

Why on earth was Resident Evil 2 your go to example??




- arturo rj - 03-29-2013

AWhat is it with most Americans and sex. I mean I'd rather a 13 year see boobs which are natural thing than a game about dismembering corpses. This whole subject of whether Wonder Woman is wearing fetish wear is silly. It's nothing of the kind it's amazing how silly our country can be. All female characters in comics have silly costumes, in fact Wonder Woman has one the less silly ones, I find this whole subject so odd.


- freeman - 03-29-2013

We're discussing the author.  Would you prefer we just pretend he wasn't into certain fetishes and that doesn't affect the formation of the character?




- laurenortega - 03-29-2013

Even the fun thread hijacking has gotten annoying now.




- grubstreeter - 03-29-2013

Whatever it takes to get this wacky thread to 100 pages!




- MichaelM - 03-29-2013

So who thinks Harvey Dent is coming back for BATMAN 4?




- untitled - 03-29-2013

I hope Batman has to fight a serial killer Riddler and the Penguin is a mob boss.




- arturo rj - 03-29-2013

A[quote name="Untitled" url="/community/t/144220/the-dark-knight-rises-post-release-thread/4170#post_3486753"]I hope Batman has to fight a serial killer Riddler and the Penguin is a mob boss. 
[/quote]

Wait you had that idea too? But seriously the villians should be a pedophile Mad Hatter performed by Robin Williams and the Ventrilloquist played by John Malkovich and scarface voiced by Ray Liotta! You know that will make money!

Than maybe in the sequel Batman has to battle A returning Joker and Harley Quinn! And possibly a bunch of Clayfaces after that.


- bradito - 03-29-2013

AHugo Strange should be an evil TV talk show host like "Dr. Phil" in "The Dark Knight Rises Returns."


- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Why on earth was Resident Evil 2 your go to example??

Ehhh it was late and it always stuck out to me. As bad as the movie was for whatever reason that always stuck out to me the most. However im sure you see my point. I get what they are trying to do but it's really silly whcih takes me out of any movie. The Catwoman outfit made more sense, it's black, and you can movie around easily.




- cylon baby - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

And her tits would pop out when she fought....which I must admit would distract bad guys but I don't think that's what shes going for. Look I love leering women as much as any man (except in evil dirty boob threads!) and I don't want to destroy the costume but something that seems more practical would be nice.

Not if that top is reeeaaaall tight!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

Ehhh it was late and it always stuck out to me. As bad as the movie was for whatever reason that always stuck out to me the most. However im sure you see my point. I get what they are trying to do but it's really silly whcih takes me out of any movie. The Catwoman outfit made more sense, it's black, and you can movie around easily.

I'm sure they stuck out at you WINK WINK NUDGE NUIDGE SAY. NO. MORE!

I've never worn a full body suit made of leather, but I can imagine it would be the opposite of moving around easily in it. And we've expended pages on comments detailing the impracticalities of Batman's Armor suit.




- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Not if that top is reeeaaaall tight!

I'm sure they stuck out at you WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE SAY. NO. MORE!

I've worn a full body suit made of leather, but I can imagine it would be the opposite of moving around easily in it. And we've expended pages on comments detailing the impracticalities of Batman's Armor suit.

You've worn a full leather body suit? Tell us more please. Anyway just watch the roof top fight scene. Her or her stunt double or whatever is capable of high kicks while not worrying about any paparazzi slips of any kind. Batman's get up is different because it's thicker and has the cape and and mask that's actually connected to the head. Anyway im sure you can work something practical out with the WW costume. I mean were pants really so bad?




- bradito - 03-29-2013

APants on the Wonder Woman costume are like flames on Optimus Prime.


- cylon baby - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

You've worn a full leather body suit? Tell us more please. Anyway just watch the roof top fight scene. Her or her stunt double or whatever is capable of high kicks while not worrying about any paparazzi slips of any kind. Batman's get up is different because it's thicker and has the cape and and mask that's actually connected to the head. Anyway im sure you can work something practical out with the WW costume. I mean were pants really so bad?



Damn me and my Typos! I have NEVER worn a leather suit is what I meant to say.

I just think it's absurd that WW's outfit is considered "impractical" or "ridiculous" when we've got Green fucking Arrow, The Flash, Catwoman etc out there. Preferring other costumes to WW's from an aesthetic viewpoint, that I get. But saying it's "impractical" just makes no sense.




- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post



Damn me and my Typos! I have NEVER worn a leather suit is what I meant to say.

I just think it's absurd that WW's outfit is considered "impractical" or "ridiculous" when we've got Green fucking Arrow, The Flash, Catwoman etc out there. Preferring other costumes to WW's from an aesthetic viewpoint, that I get. But saying it's "impractical" just makes no sense.

Right but these guys rarely have to worry about their dicks popping out. In battle that's something I would want tucked back. I didn't think my opinion on the costume was controversial....




- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

Pants on the Wonder Woman costume are like flames on Optimus Prime.

Are you.....I.....alright im going to assume that's some gay joke about Optimus Prime and move on.




- MichaelM - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

Are you.....I.....alright im going to assume that's some gay joke about Optimus Prime and move on.

I think it's a reference to Bay either putting flames on OP or wanting to.




- waaaaaaaalt - 03-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

I think it's a reference to Bay either putting flames on OP or wanting to.

Oh! Ok well then yeah...




- stunt poop - 04-19-2013

I just revisited one of my favorite Kids in the Hall sketches and realized where Christopher Nolan got the idea for the Joker's bank robbery.