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SKYFALL Post-Release - Printable Version

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- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odo19 View Post

lol, poor TCD. Taking tons of shit for making valid criticisms about a awful movie. This is almost an exact replay of Mcnooj in the TDKR thread. Or anyone who criticized the movie in the TDKR thread actually.

Get out while you can!

Isn't movie debate what we do here on CHUD? Should I be posting pictures of cats with humorous subtitles?




- laurenortega - 11-10-2012

I think I'm probably so rabid and attack doggy here because I spent the past while actively WATCHING the entire Bond series.

And nothing convinces me that Skyfall is a good movie than comparing it to like 70% of the series.




- gabe t - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post
Connery never occurred to me, and I was able to view the character on his own terms.

Raise your hand if you went into that scene, heard the introduction of that dude, saw glimpses of an old man with a beard and thought it would be Connery. Come on, raise them high. Honestly curious.




- Rene (Mr.Eko) - 11-10-2012

It is, then there's people getting mad, because someone didn't like the movie. It's diversity. Some will love it, some won't.

I re-read through some of the earlier thread, and it is pretty shitty that duke fleed was getting crapped on for not liking the film. So he didn't like it? So what? I didn't like Drive last year, or Detention and The Dark Knight Rises this year. It's my opinion. Everybody doesn't have to love the same stuff.




- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


I only wish he'd applied this same logic to the fourth wall breaking discussion of the ejector seat (M apparently knowing all about the button, ETC).
That moment ripped me out of the film. I hated it.


I'm with you there, Doc. Well, I didn't hate it but it certainly left me confused. I spent at least thirty seconds (possibly missing something important onscreen) thinking "Waaaait a minute. So... did Connery Bond's adventures take place between QoS and Skyfall? This is still a prequel, right? Or, has, like, almost fifty years passed between this movie and the last one? What the hell is - Oh! That's what Skyfall is!"




- laurenortega - 11-10-2012

Because Duke Fleed is an idiot.

Lots of people have different tastes, and sometimes they are stupid.

Quote:
I'm with you there, Doc. Well, I didn't hate it but it certainly left me confused. I spent at least thirty seconds (possibly missing something important onscreen0 thinking "Waaaait a minute. So... did Connery Bond's adventures take place between QoS and Skyfall? This is still a prequel, right? Or, has, like, almost fifty years passed between this movie and the last one? What the hell is - Oh! That's what Skyfall is!"

I didn't care because I don't actively attempt to construct a continuity between the movies.




- sebastian ob - 11-10-2012

I gave Duke a little crap because he adds nothing to the conversation for those who are tired of his schtick. I've long since stopped caring about his opinions.

Actually, I never cared about his opinions.




- Rene (Mr.Eko) - 11-10-2012

No need to say that though. It's his opinion, and it should be respected. Not outright saying it's stupid or calling him an idiot. That's pretty fucked up.




- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene (Mr.Eko) View Post

It is, then there's people getting mad, because someone didn't like the movie. It's diversity. Some will love it, some won't.

I re-read through some of the earlier thread, and it is pretty shitty that duke fleed was getting crapped on for not liking the film. So he didn't like it? So what? I didn't like Drive last year, or Detention and The Dark Knight Rises this year. It's my opinion. Everybody doesn't have to love the same stuff.

Oh man. Don't remind me about Detention. Just thinking about that movie makes me want Daniel Craig to walk into my room and break my neck. And it has to be Daniel Craig. I doubt Roger Moore would have the strength.




- gabe t - 11-10-2012

You can disagree with someone, and think they're wrong, and not be an asshole.

Duke's NEVER mean to anyone here, he's frequently complimentary, and he's funny. He grades films on a different criteria than some of us, and we won't see eye to eye with him. That doesn't mean you have to be assholes.




- laurenortega - 11-10-2012

Not that I need to get into a Duke Fleed argument here. But no, some people don't have opinions that automatically deserve respect.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Slim" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/300#post_3420275"]
No, I agree with you, Lauren-- and not just from a protection/vengeance standpoint. It's just that a standard trope of the Bond series hits harder when it's presented in a certain way. If it happens on screen-- as in SKYFALL or MOONRAKER-- then I want it addressed, or redressed, on screen somehow. 

In CR, for instance, even though Solange is tortured and killed off screen, Bond's basic indifference to the fact is commented on: "But that's not your problem, is it, Bond?"

If this pattern is going to continue-- as I suspect it will, because the death of the secondary Bond Girl is too easy a plot device to abandon-- I think future entries could use more of the CR or QOS treatment. It's preferable to just forgetting, in the rush of the plot, that the death of a (relative) innocent like Severine happened at all.
[/quote]

Bond did redress it. He made his quip about whiskey which was about refusing to let Silva horrify or wound him emotionally with his senseless killing of that poor girl. Then he proceeds to start murdering people, and then delivers one of his smuggest quips of all time when telling Silva about the radio.

When Bond left the agent to bleed out in the beginning he didn't speak to the man or apologize. He just looked at him and left.

He shared a look with Severine that said a great deal, but at the end of the day she was expendable, and not his priority. She was caught up in some bad business and came to an unfortunate end. I'd expect Bond to get a bit pissed, but not suddenly turn a girl's death into his main reason for revenge. It felt right that he just absorbed her death and moved on. For better or worse, that is Bond. And he is in some ways sort of a sociopath, or at least he cannot allow himself to feel deeply.


- sebastian ob - 11-10-2012

I never said Duke is stupid, I said his taste in movies is terrible. That's my opinion so I guess you gave to respect it.




- Judas Booth - 11-10-2012

AQuestion: did M say 'I fucked up' when they first arrived at Skyfall? It sure sounded like it.


- gabe t - 11-10-2012

Not every opinion deserves respect. But some people do.

Again, just don't be assholes. It gets so catty and high school-ish on these boards sometime. Especially with topics as fucking stupid as James Bond.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="MrSaxon" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/350#post_3420380"]

I'm with you there, Doc. Well, I didn't hate it but it certainly left me confused. I spent at least thirty seconds (possibly missing something important onscreen) thinking "Waaaait a minute. So... did Connery Bond's adventures take place between QoS and Skyfall? This is still a prequel, right? Or, has, like, almost fifty years passed between this movie and the last one? What the hell is - Oh! That's what Skyfall is!"
[/quote

Same here, I spent way too much time thinking about how stupid it was and how much it pissed me off, when I should only have been thinking about the dramatic issues for the characters as they went into Scotland.


- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Judas Booth" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/350#post_3420394"]Question: did M say 'I fucked up' when they first arrived at Skyfall? It sure sounded like it.[/quote]

I believe she did, yes.


- Rene (Mr.Eko) - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

Oh man. Don't remind me about Detention. Just thinking about that movie makes me want Daniel Craig to walk into my room and break my neck. And it has to be Daniel Craig. I doubt Roger Moore would have the strength.

That movie is probably the biggest letdown of the year so far for me. It was held in such high regard that finally when I saw it I was like "This is it? This is what everyone's been praising?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

You can disagree with someone, and think they're wrong, and not be an asshole.

Duke's NEVER mean to anyone here, he's frequently complimentary, and he's funny. He grades films on a different criteria than some of us, and we won't see eye to eye with him. That doesn't mean you have to be assholes.

Exactly. There can be an honest discussion that comes from one person that likes the film, and the other one who doesn't, and there not be any name calling. Whoever resorts to that is the true idiot.

He is always nice, and yeah, I find him funny too. I won't lie, he and I tend to like some of the same films, so there's that too, but he seems like a good guy, and he always has reasons for why he likes or doesn't like a film. He just says them in a unique and humorous fashion that I dig.




- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

I think we need a "Duke.... Fleed..... Rules! No, he.... Sucks!" thread where you guys can hash this out.




- gabe t - 11-10-2012

I think people need to stop being assholes and stop making personal insults during movie discussions. We can hash that out pretty much anywhere, since some people wonder why we get so few new posters around the boards lately.

Anyway, back to bullshit. Goldfinger> Skyfall > Dark Knight Rises > Prometheus. Or something.




- Rene (Mr.Eko) - 11-10-2012

Yeah, back on topic, no I didn't think Kincaid was originally written as Connery being in it. The only thing "Connery-esque" that struck me was Bond's home being in Scotland. Other than that, I was all "Cool! It's Albert Finney and he looks exactly like my Father In Law!"

I totally heard M say "I fucked up." also.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Slim" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/350#post_3420309"]
Bond sending Greene out into the desert with a quart of motor oil is, for my money-- next to shooting Dent in DR. NO-- Bond's best kill in the entire franchise. Shame it came at the end of such a turd of a movie.
[/quote]

Same here! One of Bond's coldest moments in 50 years.

And I liked Fields death, because it was grisly and sad and DID serve a story purpose - to throw MI6 and the Americans off the trail and make them think it was about oil!

I didn't care for the actress (she didn't seem remotely human, so when she "died" it almost was as if a real character had not died), but her death gave her role meaning, and it was worth it for Bond's utter inability to justify his actions in dragging her to that party and his whole need for revenge. Craig sells it.


- doc phibes - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post

Question: did M say 'I fucked up' when they first arrived at Skyfall? It sure sounded like it.

She said "I've fucked this all up, haven't I?" or something close to that.  For a character who refuses to cry, refuses to flinch at guns in her face, and refuses to show any lack of dignity, poise, or strength...  I thought it was great that she resorted to profanity at what must have been her lowest moment.  Considering her testimony and the poem she read, it must have been quietly devastating for her to believe all those deaths were ultimately her doing.

Was that the first time the f-bomb got dropped in a Bond film?  If so, I'm glad it went to such a personal and painful moment, not a cheap laugh.  And I'm glad Dench did it, as I've been quietly hoping for a while her M would say "fuck" at one moment during her run.




- sebastian ob - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe T View Post

I think people need to stop being assholes and stop making personal insults during movie discussions. We can hash that out pretty much anywhere, since some people wonder why we get so few new posters around the boards lately.

Devin was one of the biggest assholes on the board and he took most of the posters here with him, so this statement holds no water.

As much as Devin pissed me off sometimes, at least he didn't foster this "everyone gets a cookie" mentality. All opinions are not created equal. If someone wants to put some thought into what they post I'm happy to engage their opinion even if it's different than mine. And I don't make personal attacks except to people's taste, because if you choose to flaunt your bad taste, don't expect to not get called out for it. I certainly don't expect a free pass for my taste transgressions.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Rene (Mr.Eko)" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/400#post_3420403"]Yeah, back on topic, no I didn't think Kincaid was originally written as Connery being in it. The only thing "Connery-esque" that struck me was Bond's home being in Scotland. Other than that, I was all "Cool! It's Albert Finney and he looks exactly like my Father In Law!"


I totally heard M say "I fucked up." also.
[/quote]

Bond's people being Swiss / Scottish is a detail from the OHMSS novel, which was supposedly added due to the success of the first two Connery films.

Also, the Time review I read said that the film was trying to copy Marvel by giving Bond a back story about being an orphan, something the reviewer asserted was something Fleming never did. Completely wrong of course, Bond's parents died in a climbing accident in the original books. Rolleyes


- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Gabe T" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/350#post_3420376"]Raise your hand if you went into that scene, heard the introduction of that dude, saw glimpses of an old man with a beard and thought it would be Connery. Come on, raise them high. Honestly curious.
[/quote]

No because I knew Finney had been cast in that role. Connery never entered into my mind.


- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rene (Mr.Eko) View Post

Yeah, back on topic, no I didn't think Kincaid was originally written as Connery being in it. The only thing "Connery-esque" that struck me was Bond's home being in Scotland. Other than that, I was all "Cool! It's Albert Finney and he looks exactly like my Father In Law!"

I totally heard M say "I fucked up." also.


I believe (and I'm sure some of the Bondians - yeah, I just made that up - here will correct me if I'm wrong) that Flemming gave Bond Scottish antecedents, in honor of Connery's movie portrayal, so it makes sense that his childhood home would be there.

EDIT: Looks like Doc got there before me.




- tcd - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

In terms of deaths, M's was treated with the same importance as Vesper's and Tracy's. Should they have done another half a movie like QoS to show that Bond gave a shit?

I disagree. On Her Majesty's Secret Service ended with Bond a broken man, cradling his dead wife in his arms. Casino Royale ended with Bond hardened by Vesper's death and on the trail to avenge her. Skyfall ended with Bond basically saying "So that happened. What's next?".

Quote:
And your final paragraph makes a negative amount of sense.

No, that's incorrect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slim View Post

"Suspect" was a turn of phrase on my part. I thought the movie made fairly plain Bond's feelings about M's death. If you thought they handled similar material better in CASINO ROYALE, I won't quibble-- it's the better movie. But M's death certainly didn't seem cheap or pointless to me.

ETA: Gabe does make a good point above. SKYFALL was pretty determined to set the table for future installments-- e.g. moving Dench out and Fiennes in. If the strain shows for some folks, I can respect that.

Fair enough on both points. No matter how you feel about it, Skyfall is not a perfect movie. For some of us, those imperfections were more profound than for others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post

Forgive me it's just that this quote:

Sounds like. "Yeah the movie's shit! But it still beats Skyfall!"

Which is silly.

I could just as easily say "At least Skyfall had some amazing cinematography and good acting" in the context of a discussion about Die Another Day. Neither is a statement of overall preference, but rather a comparison of certain aspects of each movie.

Quote:

No I think everything you say is kinda suspect.

Like you literally sound like the major beef with the movie is "M dies but like the entire set-up of the movie was to stop her death and they failed and I don't like that."

Which again sounds suspect.

Had I actually phrased it like that, I would agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

If you think the movie is about Bond having to save M, you've missed the point of the movie. Bond having to save M is the engine that drives the plot. The movie is about what price must these people pay for the life they have chosen. What is the cost of "getting the job done"?

I don't think the movie was about Bond having to save M. I understand there were bigger themes at play. However, in terms of the stakes - the thing Bond was trying to achieve - the movie made that entirely about saving M's life. There was no other goal for Bond to fulfill. And it wasn't even so much that he failed at his one goal. It was how the movie handled that failure in that it wasn't really a failure. They just hit the reset button and moved on.

Bond didn't get the job done, so the cost of that is moot. The point was really more what is the cost of not getting the job done? And according to this movie, nothing. So then the question is, why should I care if the job gets done or not?

I don't have a problem with M dying in of itself. Only with the way this movie handled it. There were better ways to depict M's death and the impact of it. Casino Royale dealt with the same plot point in a much more artful and poignant manner.




- gabe t - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

Devin was one of the biggest assholes on the board and he took most of the posters here with him, so this statement holds no water.

As much as Devin pissed me off sometimes, at least he didn't foster this "everyone gets a cookie" mentality. All opinions are not created equal. If someone wants to put some thought into what they post I'm happy to engage their opinion even if it's different than mine. And I don't make personal attacks except to people's taste, because if you choose to flaunt your bad taste, don't expect to not get called out for it. I certainly don't expect a free pass for my taste transgressions.

Just don't be an asshole. How hard of a rule is that? We can disagree on stupid shit and not say shitty things to each other. Why does this merit a debate?

Back on topic. On Her Majesty's Secret Service > Skyfall > Fast Five > Monkeybone.




- Rene (Mr.Eko) - 11-10-2012

Yeah, there's all kinds of mistakes that end up in print magazines like that. Even if they didn't know that detail from the books, they should have known it was mentioned by Alec Trevalyn in Goldeneye.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="Rene (Mr.Eko)" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/400#post_3420413"]Yeah, there's all kinds of mistakes that end up in print magazines like that. Even if they didn't know that detail from the books, they should have known it was mentioned by Alec Trevalyn in Goldeneye.
[/quote]

And Craig's Bond is also identified as an orphan in Casino Royale on the train to Montenegro!


- MrSaxon - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post

I disagree. On Her Majesty's Secret Service ended with Bond a broken man, cradling his dead wife in his arms. Casino Royale ended with Bond hardened by Vesper's death and on the trail to avenge her. Skyfall ended with Bond basically saying "So that happened. What's next?".

What were you hoping he would do? Everyone responsible for M's demise is now dead (thanks to Bond). Who is he going to go after? You get the scene where he reflects on her death, he's given the bulldog which is M's way of telling him that he's needed in the field, and then he goes back to work because there's work to be done.




- laurenortega - 11-10-2012

Quote:
Had I actually phrased it like that, I would agree with you.

That's what it kinda sounds like. But I honestly can't make heads or tails out of your complaints.

Quote:
What were you hoping he would do? Everyone responsible for M's demise is now dead (thanks to Bond). Who is he going to go after? You get the scene where he reflects on her death, he's given the bulldog which is M's way of telling him that he's needed in the field, and then he goes back to work because there's work to be done.

Exactly! Her death is treated seriously, Bond failed to protect her, and he goes on.

We don't need Quantum of Solace or the opening of Diamonds Are Forever here. Bond can feel down without needing to to sit down and have a long talk with somebody about it.

M's dead, he killed the men who caused her death, he's a big boy and professional. Time to move along.




- dr harford - 11-10-2012

A[quote name="MrSaxon" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/400#post_3420417"]
What were you hoping he would do? Everyone responsible for M's demise is now dead (thanks to Bond). Who is he going to go after? You get the scene where he reflects on her death, he's given the bulldog which is M's way of telling him that he's needed in the field, and then he goes back to work because there's work to be done.
[/quote]

Craig's delivery of the line "With pleasure, sir. With pleasure." for me rivals the fantastic ending of Casino Royale for sheer bad ass impact. I felt like Bond had found his reason to continue on, and was hungry for whatever they could throw at him next. Bond is all about his job, and so in a way I think when M ordered him shot, he felt disposable, and that left him empty inside. He struggles with this throughout the film, failing evaluations, his worth as an agent being called into question.

By the en of the movie, he knows he is needed and he has a reason to fight.


- Judas Booth - 11-10-2012

ASomething else that bugged me: the subway wreck.

First off, it's a very well done sequence of destruction. It was extremely convincing and provided a strong WOW moment. However, it looked like the train eas empty. I remember seeing a driver but I don't remember seeing any passengers. The prior scenes showed that the tube system was in full use at the time...the cars were all packed with commuters. Hell, it was standing room only. The train that crashed should have been just as packed.