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SKYFALL Post-Release - Printable Version

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- Nooj - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post

 the Dark Knight Rises sit side by side for blockbuster of the year.  Because both are deeply invested in character, they're just a much more satisfying cinematic experience than the rest we've had this year.

But it's so bad...




- MrSaxon - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

But it's so bad...


*Puts on his Bane mask, breaks Mcnooj's back and then throws him down a hole which leads to the The Dark Knight Rises Post Release thread*




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post

Don Swoosh, Craig the...Best Bond?  Not to me.  After this...Terrible film, I am not sure he is even better than...Brosnan!  I rank Skyfall...24th!  The...Worst Bond Film! Silva is an...Awful, villain!  I definitely will not be seeing this ever again.  Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton and Sean Connery remain my top 3 Bonds.  Brosnan might even be...4th.  Lazenby is still the...Worst Bond but not by much.

Translated for people with good taste in movies: SKYFALL is great and Daniel Craig is the best Bond of all time.




- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

A[quote name="mcnooj82" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/150#post_3419643"]
But it's so bad...
[/quote]

Yeah, no it's not.


- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

A[quote name="Mr Pretzel" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/150#post_3419589"]
But story-wise this is the same.

Edit: i mean there might be different reasons for questioning the need for field agents/ "blunt instruments" - but the questioning itself is not different. And it serves the same prupose in both films: Creating artificial tension on Bond/ M when there are bigger dangers in both films.
[/quote]

GoldenEye doesn't take it as far as Skyfall does.


- Judas Booth - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

Translated for people with good taste in movies: SKYFALL is great and Daniel Craig is the best Bond of all time.

Dude.  Duke has every right to dislike the film.  He has provided reasons for disliking the film that you can argue against.  Do that instead of just slamming him.




- robotimkelly - 11-09-2012

Seconded. I value Duke's enthusiasm too much to do anything other than respect the man's opinions.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Duke never gives good reasons for liking or disliking anything. I'm not going to engage him in a debate about how Silva isn't EEEEEEEEEVIL enough or some stupid shit, sorry. I get that people have come to enjoy his schtick but don't ask me to engage him in thoughtful debate.




- Nooj - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post


Yeah, no it's not.

Oh yes it is!  Big Grin




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

I'll give you this much Nooj; I agree that SKYFALL is better than THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.




- Nooj - 11-09-2012

Their defenses are broken!

LET THE SLAUGHTER BEGIN!!!




- Judas Booth - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post

Mike's Pants, Hopefully future Bond films will be better.  Bond is basically...M's...Bodyguard through the 2nd half of the film.  Silva is...Nothing like an old school Bond Villain.  His plan is to kill...M!  Bond doesn't have to save the world from S.P.E.C.T.R.E, or Fort Knox's Gold, he just has to save his supervisor.  Thankfully, The Bond Series is...Moore than this...Dud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post

Dr Harford, Bond could have retired after his disappearing after being shot.  He didn't.  Bond is there to do things that ordinary agents, police etc cannot do.  Bond didn't get to 23 official films by just protecting his boss.  There are few Gadgets, they actually make fun of things like Exploding pens, Craig is not only uncomfortable in delivering puns, he is awful at it as well.  Timothy Dalton was serious, but no where near as Dour as Craig.  Bond has a relationship with M, but it doesn't have to be the main cog in the villains plan.  There should have been a bigger reason to eliminate M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post

Don Swoosh, Craig the...Best Bond?  Not to me.  After this...Terrible film, I am not sure he is even better than...Brosnan!  I rank Skyfall...24th!  The...Worst Bond Film! Silva is an...Awful, villain!  I definitely will not be seeing this ever again.  Roger Moore, Timothy Dalton and Sean Connery remain my top 3 Bonds.  Brosnan might even be...4th.  Lazenby is still the...Worst Bond but not by much.

OK, a summary of Duke's reasons for not enjoying the film:

1.  Bond is M's bodyguard through the second half of the film.  He doesn't like that this is how the plot uses him.

2.  Silva's plan isn't 'big' enough.  Duke would prefer something bigger that will affect the world rather than something so personal.

3.  Bond is used incorrectly (see point #1).  He should be doing things that ordinary men can't do, not just saving his boss.

4.  There aren't enough gadgets in the film to his liking.

5.  Duke enjoys it when Bond delivers funny quips, ala Roger Moore.  Craig doesn't do this at all in this film, decreasing his enjoyment value.

6.  Duke is not satisfied with the reasons for why Silva would focus on M so much.

I haven't seen the film yet (I'm seeing it tonight), but those sound like valid concerns regarding the plot AND valid expressions of personal preference.




- bitches leave - 11-09-2012

ADuke has an assistant now. Quite impressive and a first for the Chud forums as far as I recall!


- Judas Booth - 11-09-2012

I'm just standing up for him in this instance.  Cut through all of the ellipses and you'll find his reasons for disliking the film.

I'm also sick of people dismissing him so easily.  He may have opinions that go against the grain but SO WHAT.  He never goes after anyone, regardless of what they say about him, and he's exceedingly polite.  He's well regarded in the B Action thread and in the sports threads.

Cut him some damned slack.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Judas, you haven't seen the movie. Two of Dukes's "valid" criticisms aren't even true! Bond makes many quips and does things no normal human can do. And the rest of his criticisms boil down to "I wanted a different movie" (a dumber, more cliched and typical one), which is not taking the film for what is it which is the very definition of invalid criticism.

I'm sorry but Duke lowers the bar of conversation around here. Nothing personal against the guy but I'm going to call that shit out when it bugs me.




- laurenortega - 11-09-2012

Duke Fleed is fucking awful and all of his reasons for hating a movie should be more proof that it's quality.

And this is probably the last thing I ever want to say about that poster.




- Judas Booth - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

Two of Dukes's "valid" criticisms aren't even true! Bond makes many quips and does things no normal human can do. And the rest of his criticisms boil down to "I wanted a different movie" (a dumber, more cliched and typical one), which is not taking the film for what is it which is the very definition of invalid criticism.

See, that's a reasonable discussion to have with him.

For the record, I don't have any issues with you or any of you.  I just feel that some of this slagging on Duke is overly mean-spirited, especially when he NEVER reciprocates this attitude towards anyone else.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

I'm sure Duke doesn't give two shits that I think his taste in movies is terrible. That's all I'm saying. Because it's true.




- Judas Booth - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

I'm sure Duke doesn't give two shits that I think his taste in movies is terrible. That's all I'm saying. Because it's true.

Fair enough.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Back to non-Duke related discussion:

The comparisons to THE DARK KNIGHT RISES are really apt; there's a lot of similarities going on here, though SKYFALL really does execute them so much better. It's interesting that this broken hero coming out of retirement thing seems to be part of the zeitgeist right now. As an aging dude I appreciate it.




- avian - 11-09-2012

Since my praises have already been covered earlier, I think I'll just sink into my qualms. Spoilers spoilers spoilers (are we still doing that?)

Given that one of the subplots is whether or not M should be retired, they probably shouldn't have made every call she makes in the movie a bad one. I think the only one she really got right was putting Bond on duty, which is like making Michael Jordan your first pick in a game of hoops. Yeah, no shit. But before and after that, she…

1. Lets an agent bleed out instead of letting Bond stay with him to give first aid, as Bond asks to (she needs Bond to go after a bad guy, but she's got a second agent there. Send one off, let the other help the wounded).

2. Tells Eve to shoot Bond and Patrice instead of letting Bond punch the guy out like he's done, oh, five hundred times in his career (you could say this is on Eve for flubbing the shot, but M put her in the field in the first place).

3. Falling for Silva's plan.

4. When given warning of Silva's escape and attempt on her life, goes "No thanks, I'll just stay here and read some poetry." This leads to several people dying.

5. Turning on a flashlight when she's running away from gunmen at night.

6. Also, during the opening where Bond and Eve are chasing Patrice, must she ask for a report every ten seconds? What does she hope to accomplish there? "Bond, what's going on?" "Well, I'm punching the bad guy in the face and he's punching me back." "Punch him hard and dodge his punches!" "Jolly good, mum, will do."

In fact, all of the newbies are for some reason introduced as being awful at their jobs. Eve hits Bond instead of Patrice and then gapes like an idiot instead of, oh, firing again. Q just plugs a master hacker's laptop right into MI6's servers, which is the equivalent of the CIA accepting a care package from Osama bin Laden. Only Mallory really comes off well, taking a gunshot for M (see Point 4 above) and then covering her escape. No wonder they put him in charge; he's the only person in Britain who knows what he's doing.

I understand that this is the 21st century and Moneypenny can be a badass lady spy now, but I don't see what it adds to the mythos to have her be a badass lady spy who is actually quite terrible at her job and ends up relegated to a desk where she can't shoot anymore of her co-workers. People can't just be secretaries now? Will we be finding out that Betty Brant is actually a failed superhero in the next Spider-Man movie?

I suppose the old thing of Bond having perfectly consensual sex with a girl at the end of every movie and then them parting ways is terribly sexist, since no woman would ever want to have a fling with Daniel Craig, but I don't see how having girls just to wear backless dresses, shag Bond, and get murdered by the villain is any better. Bond actually has more reaction to his car getting blown up than Severin being blown away; I kept expecting there to be a line of dialogue going "Oh, we got her to a hospital, she's fine," to justify why he doesn't seem to give a shit. The way it plays is especially odd since immediately afterward we get a badass action scene and Bond making triumphant quips. I know the old Bond movies killed off Bond girls too, but at least Sean Connery would look sad for a few seconds.

In fact, given the point the movie makes about Bond's compassion as it starts, he's weirdly blasé for the rest of the movie. He lets an assassin kill someone before attacking him (hope the target didn't have kids, orphan) and then the thing with Severin. Seems odd.

I think we should have a moratorium on "yes! We captured the bad guy! Wait, no, it was all part of his master plan!" plots for the remainder of the decade. It worked in The Avengers and The Dark Knight, but here it just seems pointless.


Silva: Yes! After years of work, I've bombed MI6 headquarters to force them into their secondary headquarters, allowed myself to be captured, and now hacked their computers to allow my escape and bombed a subway train to cover it! Time to execute my master plan!

Henchman: What are we going to do, boss? Free a political prisoner? Steal valuable data? Set off a bomb?

Silva: We're going to dress up as policemen and bust into a courthouse, guns blazing, to kill M!

Henchman: What, really?

Silva: Yes, brilliant, I know.

Henchman: Couldn't we just… do the policemen thing without all that other stuff?

Silva: I have to look her in the eyes before I kill her and let her know it was me who did it!

Henchman: So say "Remember me?" before you shoot her. But the way you have it now, you're actually warning her you're coming by escaping.

Silva: Look, I'm crazy, you're a henchman, you know how this works.

Henchman: Yeah, but didn't you see Casino Royale? Bond snuck into her house, like, five times. Can't we do that? I'll tie her up, you can talk to her as long as you want, you shoot her, we're out of here.

Silva: I don't think you understand. I'm… CRAZY. That means I get to do whatever convoluted thing the script demands even when there's a much simpler way to get what I want.

I mean, it's good that they thought through the emotional, character stuff so thoroughly, but they could've spent more time on the actual plot. (Also, this is really a quibble, but given how they establish Silva as such a match for Bond and a physical threat in a way Le Chiffre and Greene never were, it's a shame that their big showdown is Bond shanking Silva in the back.)




- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

A[quote name="Sebastian OB" url="/community/t/145354/skyfall-post-release/150#post_3419740"]Back to non-Duke related discussion:

The comparisons to THE DARK KNIGHT RISES are really apt; there's a lot of similarities going on here, though SKYFALL really does execute them so much better. It's interesting that this broken hero coming out of retirement thing seems to be part of the zeitgeist right now. As an aging dude I appreciate it. 
[/quote]

I think the execution between the two films is about equal.


- Nooj - 11-09-2012

I found it odd that Eve resigns herself to a deskjob despite the fact that she was a total natural on the field.  She didn't even seem all that bothered about shooting Bond in the beginning.  But otherwise, she was of valuable help through the film.

There was no sense that she would ever consider not being an agent.  It really felt like she was pigeonholed into the deskjob simply because of the "MY REAL NAME IS ROBIN!  OHOHOHOH!!" moment the film had to have.

She just seems cool with everything.  It didn't bug me all that much... I just found it odd.




- Nooj - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by avian View Post

I suppose the old thing of Bond having perfectly consensual sex with a girl at the end of every movie and then them parting ways is terribly sexist, since no woman would ever want to have a fling with Daniel Craig, but I don't see how having girls just to wear backless dresses, shag Bond, and get murdered by the villain is any better. Bond actually has more reaction to his car getting blown up than Severin being blown away; I kept expecting there to be a line of dialogue going "Oh, we got her to a hospital, she's fine," to justify why he doesn't seem to give a shit. The way it plays is especially odd since immediately afterward we get a badass action scene and Bond making triumphant quips. I know the old Bond movies killed off Bond girls too, but at least Sean Connery would look sad for a few seconds.

In fact, given the point the movie makes about Bond's compassion as it starts, he's weirdly blasé for the rest of the movie. He lets an assassin kill someone before attacking him (hope the target didn't have kids, orphan) and then the thing with Severin. Seems odd.

I found this stuff odd too.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post


I think the execution between the two films is about equal.

I disagree. Though I do like THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, it felt like a film with a stalling engine. Bruce Wayne's character arc was this strange double comeback -- he's out of commission, he comes back, he gets put out of commission again, he comes back again -- it lacked the proper momentum. In SKYFALL, Bond's arc is straightforward and satisfying. The constant exchange of trust and mistrust between M and Bond keeps the story feeling like it has forward momentum. And Silva is there to stoke it by seeding the mistrust in Bond while at the same time forcing him into a position to protect her. It just works. I always felt like I was moving forward with SKYFALL, where as THE DARK KNIGHT felt like two steps forward, two steps back again.

TDKR would have worked so much better for me if it had started with Batman still in operation. Then it would have felt like a story that moved forward rather than a herky-jerky start and stall.




- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I found it odd that Eve resigns herself to a deskjob despite the fact that she was a total natural on the field.  She didn't even seem all that bothered about shooting Bond in the beginning.  But otherwise, she was of valuable help through the film.

There was no sense that she would ever consider not being an agent.  It really felt like she was pigeonholed into the deskjob simply because of the "MY REAL NAME IS ROBIN!  OHOHOHOH!!" moment the film had to have.

She just seems cool with everything.  It didn't bug me all that much... I just found it odd.

That was my only real problem with the film as well.  Especially after the court room sequence where Bond trusts her by tossing the gun over to her.  It just doesn't seem like she'd be one to go to the desk after that sequence.

Unless the producers are playing a long game with this version of Moneypenny.  I just get the impression that she'll get from behind that desk to help Bond in one of the next two pictures.  Just a gut feeling.




- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

I disagree. Though I do like THE DARK KNIGHT RISES, it felt like a film with a stalling engine. Bruce Wayne's character arc was this strange double comeback -- he's out of commission, he comes back, he gets put out of commission again, he comes back again -- it lacked the proper momentum. In SKYFALL, Bond's arc is straightforward and satisfying. The constant exchange of trust and mistrust between M and Bond keeps the story feeling like it has forward momentum. and Silva is there to stoke it by seeding the mistrust in Bond. It just works. I always felt like I was moving forward with SKYFALL, where as THE DARK KNIGHT felt like two steps forward, two steps back again.

See, for me, Wayne's never comes back in the first half of the film.  Yeah, he puts on the suit and does what he does but he's not the Batman of the Dark Knight.  I know for a lot of people it felt like an odd structure to have him rise, fall, then rise again.  But, for me at least, he didn't rise in the first half of the picture.  This is why I can buy the middle section of the film.  Not saying you're not wrong with the way Rises is structured but it just depends on how you feel about Wayne's reappearance in the first half of the picture.




- MrSaxon - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post

Unless the producers are playing a long game with this version of Moneypenny.  I just get the impression that she'll get from behind that desk to help Bond in one of the next two pictures.  Just a gut feeling.

I'd never actually considered this but now I will be completely disappointed if it doesn't happen. Naomie Harris is too good to be stuck behind a desk flirting with Craig for the next two movies (or however long she plays the part).




- don swoosh - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

I'd never actually considered this but now I will be completely disappointed if it doesn't happen. Naomie Harris is too good to be stuck behind a desk flirting with Craig for the next two movies (or however long she plays the part).

See, I thought the same thing when it was revealed she was Moneypenny.  Again, this is Trudy from Mann's Miami Vice.  She was badass in that film.  How the hell is just going to sit behind the desk as Moneypenny?

My other thought, and this may put people off, is that she's there for Idris Elba's run as 007.  Full disclosure, I'm black, so....

I thought her and Craig's chemistry was great in the film but still, it's odd having her stuck behind the desk with Craig doing two more.  They have to be playing a long game with this version of Moneypenny.




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post

See, for me, Wayne's never comes back in the first half of the film.  Yeah, he puts on the suit and does what he does but he's not the Batman of the Dark Knight.  I know for a lot of people it felt like an odd structure to have him rise, fall, then rise again.  But, for me at least, he didn't rise in the first half of the picture.  This is why I can buy the middle section of the film.  Not saying you're not wrong with the way Rises is structured but it just depends on how you feel about Wayne's reappearance in the first half of the picture.

I get that we're not really supposed to think that Batman is back when he first re-appears, but the film tries to have it both ways. When Batman emerges from the tunnel on the batpod, you feel, "Yeah, Batman's back!" But then the rug gets yanked out 40 minutes later, and then you're supposed to feel the exact same thing when he re-appears saving Gordon on the ice. He's down, he's up, he's down, he's up. It's a repetitive back-and-forth feeling. There's a disconnect between what the film wants you to think and what it wants you to feel. This is a weakness of Nolan's IMO. He doesn't always get the balance right.




- chrknudsen - 11-09-2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Swoosh View Post

My other thought, and this may put people off, is that she's there for Idris Elba's run as 007.  Full disclosure, I'm black, so....

If this turns out to be the case, I'm going to be severly disappointed with Broccoli and Wilson...




- sebastian ob - 11-09-2012

They definitely won't bring Naomie Harris back just to have her be a desk jockey in a couple of scenes per film. We will be getting a more hands-on (pun intended) Moneypenny this time around.




- shaun h - 11-09-2012

Avian, you made a lot of good points which, once put all together, really shows why the hype on this one is a bit unwarranted.

Quote:


Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

There was no sense that she would ever consider not being an agent.  It really felt like she was pigeonholed into the deskjob simply because of the "MY REAL NAME IS ROBIN!  OHOHOHOH!!" moment the film had to have.

The lack of outcry over how shoe-horned in this was versus the Robin line is shitty.




- agracru - 11-09-2012

Oh my god! The Dark Knight Rises! In the fucking Skyfall thread! We're being invaded!

...

The further I get away from Skyfall, the more I liked it. In fact, I'm surprised it isn't receiving universal love here for the ways it balances out both ends of the contemporary genre blockbuster, playing in the middle of the spectrum instead of at either end of being less serious (The Avengers) or more serious (The Dark Knight). Skyfall manages to walk the line and be both, bucking the trend of blockbusters fitting into one mold or another while also being generally better-made than either of them. (And I loved The Avengers. Rises can go fuck itself.) It's serious, immensely serious, without being aggressively dour and overwhelmingly boring, and at the same time Bond gets to throw around his usual stock of pithy one-liners as he does things like feed fat bad guys to komodo dragons (I'm waiting for someone to say "KOMODO DRAGONS ARE SCARED OF HUMANS THOUGH") and fuck random strange women who pack heat while out on the town. Fuck them in the shower. After sneaking up naked on them.

Which makes the "eh, this isn't Bond enough" stuff into frustrating criticism. Of course this is Bond. This is Bond upon Bond upon Bond. That Mendes and Craig tone things down and deliberately address and reject conventions of the past doesn't reduce the Bondness here; no exploding pens, sure, but Bond still loves his souped-up Aston Martin and he can admire the benefits of sneaky Q-tech in the vein of a palm-coded Walther. His villain lives on a damn island, for crying out loud. But I think the point is getting through to the humanity of Bond so that we can get back to letting him do the things we love watching him do. Frankly, I expect the next Bond films to be much more like the Connery/Moore-era pictures where the bad guy has underwater lairs and iron-jawed henchmen at his disposal, and if they're being made by guys like Mendes and Deakins, all the better.

Oh, and I didn't like the "Moneypenny" line, either, but unlike that stupid fucking Robin line, I saw it coming from ten miles away without having to read any theoretical/conspiratorial essays on the web in advance. If you haven't figured out that Eve is Moneypenny before the climax, well, you're a perfectly smart and awesome person, but the movie isn't really trying to hide it from you either. Bond comes right out and pegs her as someone better-suited for a desk job.




- draco senior - 11-09-2012

Quote:
 Q just plugs a master hacker's laptop right into MI6's servers, which is the equivalent of the CIA accepting a care package from Osama bin Laden.

Yeah, this bugged me a bit as well.  I liked Q's introduction but from there I thought he could have been handled better.