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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 02-26-2020

BLOOD! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - call me roy - 02-26-2020

Saw TLC with my Dad last Fathers Day at my local indie, Sun-Ray Cinema. Bunch of Father/Sons showed up.

We had the tape growing up, but I had never watched it with him as an adult. It was a great time, especially since we ourselves were estranged for 8 years. It was a therapeutic experience, although nothing that needed to be spoken of.

It was such a great movie going experience too in the sense that it was a sold out show and everything worked.

Some young kids their under the age of 12, probably seeing it for the first time. Everyone was gunning for Indy to win. One of the best times at the movies ive had.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 02-26-2020

As goofy as TLC can be, Spielberg makes it a triumphant through the father-son dynamic. Giving both Indy and Henry Sr arcs - and the brilliant cast of Connery - is what really makes the movie. (And as said above, Connery is such a delight here because he not only plays against type he's actually acting; we come to think of him as Henry Sr, not SEAN CONNERY.)

That said, the airplane/beach sequence features some of the worst green screen compositing I've ever seen and threatens to break the movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

I think lost in the traditional (and still valid) RAIDERS LITE complaints is that CRUSADE really does have a good script.  I do not buy into the idea that the movie is a simple rehash saved singlehandedly by Connery's presence, even though he undoubtedly puts it over the top.  And while the amount of comedy in the movie may not be to everyone's tastes, the comedy is very successful.  Again, comparisons to CRYSTAL SKULL are useful here.  That movie has no equivalent to the immaculately executed Brody CUT TO gag or "I should have mailed it to the Marx Brothers" or "No ticket!" or the Hitler gag or any other of the third movie's big laughs.  Same for the pathos: there is nothing like the dialog between Indy and his dad on the zeppelin or "I've lost him" or the genuine grandeur of the heroes arriving at Petra.  Jeffery Boam and Tom Stoppard deserve some credit here.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 02-26-2020

A couple of Indy-related anecdotes that I think I've mentioned here before but I have time to kill while waiting for a meeting to start, so you're getting them again:

1. I took my parents to see KOTCS for my second viewing. They go to the movies maybe once every five years. During the campus chase, my dad goes "Hey, I had that car!" in a loud, conversational tone of voice. He then begins to tell me how you'd had to do this weird trick with the handle to get the trunk to open. The theater wasn't very crowded, so I just let him talk. Dad turned 80 a couple of weeks ago. I hope they make Indy V because I'd like to go see one more Indiana Jones movie with my dad, you know?*

2. I like that if you're a pilot for Lao Che Air Freight, at some point during your training you're taught that if the boss ever comes out on the tarmac, laughs evilly, and salutes, you are to abandon your plane mid-flight leaving the passengers to die.

*Mom is welcome to come too, of course.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - boone daniels - 02-26-2020

I'm by no means a cinematography nerd, but I think one of the biggest problems with CRYSTAL SKULL is that, try as they might, it just doesn't look like the other movies.

Since we're trading trivia:

I learned upon my latest CRUSADE rewatch that Michael Sheard, who also played Ozzel in EMPIRE, played Hitler five times, including in CRUSADE. He also played Himmler three times and the "double" of Goring in an episode of British television.

This of course led me down a rabbit hole of "actors who played more than 1 member of the Nazi high command in their career," which I'm still researching.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

What makes the photography in CRYSTAL SKULL such a major offense is not that Kaminski's choices are not to my tastes (though they most certainly aren't) but that they compromise the film's immersion.  We could debate the relative merits of the choices from an aesthetic standpoint, but objectively the movie just looks weird and fake.  The filtration imposes this Gaussian blur curtain between the audience and the story that prevents us from buying into the world.  If we can't buy into the world, then nothing means anything.  There are no stakes.  Boone is right that the movie doesn't look like it takes place in the Indy universe, but I would go further and say that it doesn't even look like it takes place in the known universe.  The style calls so much attention to itself, is so artificial and self-conscious, that it takes away from the material when the job at hand is to service it.  The movie could have looked significantly different than the previous three and still had some sort of tactile quality that didn't constantly pull us out of the proceedings.  It's transcends being aesthetically questionable and becomes a genuine storytelling liability.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 02-26-2020

To me, Temple of Doom is as if the Spielberg who directed 1941 jumped ahead in time and made an Indy movie. It's like everything he showed he'd learned making Raiders went out the window. Only the fact that it's Steven Goddamn Spielberg keeps it from being a sprawling mess. And I still dig it, just not as much as Raiders and Crusade.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

There is definitely a manic energy in common between 1941 and TEMPLE, but I think Spielberg puts it to better use in TEMPLE, which really is the last hurrah of Spielberg Version 1. That director never turned up again.

I think a lot of what people criticize TEMPLE for are the very qualities which make it most kindred to the actual Republic serials that serve as the series' foundation.  The movie is so unburdened by pretense, so confident and inventive and enthusiastic, it is irresistible.  And while it's definitely running at a high RPM, it avoids that Michael Bay incomprehensibility that would have left it a meaningless collection of sounds and images.  It is just too tactile and well staged.  I shudder to think of what it would look like if Spielberg made it now.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 12:57 PM)fatherdude Wrote: There is definitely a manic energy in common between 1941 and TEMPLE, but I think Spielberg puts it to better use in TEMPLE, which really is the last hurrah of Spielberg Version 1. That director never turned up again.

I think a lot of what people criticize TEMPLE for are the very qualities which make it most kindred to the actual Republic serials that serve as the series' foundation.  The movie is so unburdened by pretense, so confident and inventive and enthusiastic, it is irresistible.  And while it's definitely running at a high RPM, it avoids that Michael Bay incomprehensibility that would have left it a meaningless collection of sounds and images.  It is just too tactile and well staged.  I shudder to think of what it would look like if Spielberg made it now.

Absolutely. Tope of that list, racism!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - boone daniels - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 12:40 PM)fatherdude Wrote: What makes the photography in CRYSTAL SKULL such a major offense is not that Kaminski's choices are not to my tastes (though they most certainly aren't) but that they compromise the film's immersion.  We could debate the relative merits of the choices from an aesthetic standpoint, but objectively the movie just looks weird and fake.  The filtration imposes this Gaussian blur curtain between the audience and the story that prevents us from buying into the world.  If we can't buy into the world, then nothing means anything.  There are no stakes.  Boone is right that the movie doesn't look like it takes place in the Indy universe, but I would go further and say that it doesn't even look like it takes place in the known universe.  The style calls so much attention to itself, is so artificial and self-conscious, that it takes away from the material when the job at hand is to service it.  The movie could have looked significantly different than the previous three and still had some sort of tactile quality that didn't constantly pull us out of the proceedings.  It's transcends being aesthetically questionable and becomes a genuine storytelling liability.

The thing about this is that you can almost see what Spielberg was going for. Having watched a ton of those 1950s monster movies, there is a kind of artificial feel to many of them, where it feels like it's being shot on a set with a lot of rear projection. So it makes sense that if Spielberg was using the "serial" style for the earlier ones, he would want to try and update the visual style to match the movies from the period Crystal Skull was inspired by. The problem is that he goes too far, makes it feel too artificial, too detached from reality. Too fake. I almost wonder if CRYSTAL SKULL would work better in completely black and white, as that might be more evocative of the time period and mitigate some of the problems with the cinematography.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 02-26-2020

The chase through the rainforest is a great case in point. It's full of practical stunts and effects and none of them look good, or real. You can watch the making of features, and there's people sword fighting on the backs of cars flying through the jungle, and it looks way better than in the movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

Anyone who has watched 1950s B-movies can attest that they really don't share any DNA with CRYSTAL SKULL's look, even accounting for the differences in film stock, etc.  THE NAKED JUNGLE desperately needs a Blu-ray release, but even in standard def you can see a sharp image with vibrant colors and no distracting halos brimming off every contour.     

There is no particular "era" being evoked in CRYSTAL SKULL.  It is evocative only of its DOP's preferences.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 01:37 PM)arjen rudd Wrote: The chase through the rainforest is a great case in point. It's full of practical stunts and effects and none of them look good, or real. You can watch the making of features, and there's people sword fighting on the backs of cars flying through the jungle, and it looks way better than in the movie.

THIS. SO. MUCH.

TINTIN looked more real than KOTCS.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

The thing about the insensitive elements of TEMPLE is that while all the indictments are true, the movie feels weirdly singled out to me in the context of a series that is positively loaded with that stuff.  RAIDERS has straight up yellow face in it during The Raven shootout.  The depiction of non-whites in these movies is as adolescent and colonialist as you please, but at least actual Indians are playing Indians in those uncomfortable reaction shots, to say nothing of the strong villains we get in Amrish Puri and Roshan Seth.

By comparison, a British stunt guy with prosthetics on his face to look Nepalese is...woof. And while it's not a defense, the fact that TEMPLE is a riff on GUNGA DIN, which shares many of its imperialistic attitudes and is nevertheless still acknowledged as a classic adventure film, is part of the filter I look at the movie through.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

[Image: 3qdge9.jpg]


*Kaminiski has been married to Holly Hunter and Rebecca Rankin (hubba hubba).  Dude has game.

**Apparently Douglas Slocombe passed away at 103.  Wow.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Amos - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:20 PM)fatherdude Wrote: but at least actual Indians are playing Indians in those uncomfortable reaction shots,

[Image: latest?cb=20130713134711]


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:20 PM)fatherdude Wrote: GUNGA DIN ...

The speech given by the Thuggee cult leader towards the end of Gunga Din is the cinematic equivalent of Shylock's soliloquy in Merchant of Venice.  Way ahead of its time and incredibly memorable.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

I was thinking specifically of the villagers' bug-eyed gaze when Willie attempts to mount the elephant, but yeah, I can only raise so much of a shield here.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Amos - 02-26-2020

I think Temple is probably my favorite, too.

Raiders is the greater cinematic achievement for sure, but Temple is pulpier.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:28 PM)Amos Wrote: I think Temple is probably my favorite, too.

Raiders is the greater cinematic achievement for sure, but Temple is pulpier.

Temple is pure pulp adventure, through and through. It hearkens back to stuff like King Solomon's Mines, etc.

**Even though people often accuse me of being overly attuned to culturally insensitive depictions in film and television I just don't understand such complaints in regards to the Indy films.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

CRYSTAL SKULL depicts twenty year old white guys as either stereotypical greasers or jocks, FBI agents as total dicks, and Ukrainians as Emo Philips.

In seriousness, it's funny how Spielberg "growing up" during the long gap before the fourth movie basically just amounted to deleting all the comic book violence you'd reasonably want from an Indy movie. But a childish view of other cultures remains in full force: the Nazca Indians are Ewoks in skull masks that do ninja movies while making creature noises. Their silliness wouldn't be such a problem if they had even cursory dimension or a stated agenda, like a Peruvian equivalent of the Brothers of the Crucifirm Sword. But they are just a meaningless distraction that never turn up again. What a weird movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:38 PM)fatherdude Wrote: CRYSTAL SKULL depicts twenty year old white guys as either stereotypical greasers or jocks, FBI agents as total dicks, and Ukrainians as Emo Philips.

Now that you mention it, you're right!  That IS insensitive.

Everything else in the Indy films is fine.


****Hmmm....

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/steven-spielberg-indiana-jones-5-james-mangold-harrison-ford-1203515698/


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - atomtastic - 02-26-2020

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/steven-spielberg-indiana-jones-5-james-mangold-harrison-ford-1203515698/

Countdown to Ford dropping out and this being a total reboot?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:44 PM)atomtastic Wrote: Countdown to Ford dropping out and this being a total reboot [WITH CHRIS PRATT AS INDIANA JONES].

You're probably right.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

Whelp, that's it. No finale from the original team.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 02-26-2020

The most baffling thing about how Kaminski and Spielberg visually crafted CRYSTAL SKULL is that, only three years later, they made a film that looks far more like an INDIANA JONES movie should look -- WAR HORSE. That picture is swimming in classic style that, if not directly approximating Slocombe's look for Indy, at least is far more in line than CRYSTAL SKULL.

Point being, they had the ability to do it. They just didn't. I don't know if that's because they over-thought it, or if it was a conscious thing.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Amos - 02-26-2020

I think it was George Lucas's stupid story idea that put everyone else on autopilot (besides Ford).


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:44 PM)atomtastic Wrote: https://variety.com/2020/film/news/steven-spielberg-indiana-jones-5-james-mangold-harrison-ford-1203515698/

Well, damn.

I like Mangold, but my interest just mostly evaporated.

I bet that means no John Williams, either.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 12:57 PM)fatherdude Wrote: There is definitely a manic energy in common between 1941 and TEMPLE, but I think Spielberg puts it to better use in TEMPLE, which really is the last hurrah of Spielberg Version 1. That director never turned up again.

I feel that "Spielberg Version 1" ends with E.T. He never goes back to relatable suburbia after that, unless Catch Me If You Can's stylized period take counts.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - serpico jones - 02-26-2020

Holy shit.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:59 PM)hammerhead Wrote:
(02-26-2020, 12:57 PM)fatherdude Wrote: There is definitely a manic energy in common between 1941 and TEMPLE, but I think Spielberg puts it to better use in TEMPLE, which really is the last hurrah of Spielberg Version 1. That director never turned up again.

I feel that "Spielberg Version 1" ends with E.T. He never goes back to relatable suburbia after that, unless Catch Me If You Can's stylized period take counts.

I would say his directorial effort in Twilight Zone was the last gasp of Spielberg's first chapter as a filmmaker.  After Twilight Zone he made Temple of Doom and Empire of the Sun, both far darker and more cynical than his prior efforts.

In addition to his natural maturation as a director, Spielberg probably felt some degree of responsibility for the deaths during the Twilight Zone production ... even though Landis was the real criminal scum.  During the mid 80s Spielberg also faced some degree of turmoil in his persona life that probably played a part as well.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 02-26-2020

*picture of the knight waving goodbye as the temple collapses around him*


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 02-26-2020

I know this is what a lot of people predicted would happen, but I wish Spielberg would have made this decision in 2016 when the project was announced, because then I could have known not to care.

And just like that, the official ending of the Spielberg era of Indiana Jones becomes Shia LaBeouf shuffling out of a chapel.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 02-26-2020

(02-26-2020, 02:49 PM)fatherdude Wrote: Whelp, that's it.  No finale from the original team.

But we do have a finale from the original team. It's called INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE.