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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-18-2020

As much as I love the character of Marion in RAIDERS...

... I kinda don't really want to see her again. Go the TEMPLE OF DOOM route, with Indy finishing up one adventure and then being immediately plunged into another before he can get back to the States.

Now, Sallah? Please, yes. I don't care what kind of contrivances need to be concocted.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-18-2020

Sallah should have remained a one off character, much like Bond’s allies as Kerim Bey, Marc-Ange Draco, Tiger Tanaka, and so on.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-18-2020

Perhaps, but the precedent's been set that he's recurring.

I don't want him along for the duration of the adventure, but I'd like an appearance.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-18-2020

(06-18-2020, 11:19 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: The snake sequence is awful.

Of course, it's also not good in CRYSTAL SKULL.

Hey man, George Lucas specifically wanted Indy to cross from pulp adventure serial to 1950's giant bug monster mash as a sort of genre-bending experiment, and it was either the giant snake gag or THEM! sized ants. Would you prefer literal horse-sized ants?! WOULD YOU?!

Frank was given a dumb tone shattering note from George, and God damn it he TRIED to stuff it into his story by making an interesting little Indy snake dynamic out of it. He wasn't writing on spec, he didn't get to invent his marching orders and bullet points and list of demands.

For my money. Every single thing about the script is better, from small ways to big ways. A small thing is during the Nuketown sequence Indiana and the Russians accidentally shoot the engine block of their car. Then there's a bit where they all realize what the town is, they look at each other, and then they all take off sprinting out of town. Indy yells at them in Russian "You idiots shot the car!" and one of them replies "Shut up and run!!!"

Then Indy, frustrated, stops and turns back towards town to the astonishment of the Russians who keep on running. It's a very small thing in that case, but the scene is just more interesting Darabonts way.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-18-2020

I don't think made-up giant creatures of any type belong in an Indiana Jones story. You get to ask for one significant buy-in from the audience in these movies, and that's whatever supernatural power surrounds the MacGuffin.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-18-2020

(06-18-2020, 09:53 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: I don't think made-up giant creatures of any type belong in an Indiana Jones story. You get to ask for one significant buy-in from the audience in these movies, and that's whatever supernatural power surrounds the MacGuffin.

Well, once again to defend Darabont he tried to tie it in as a result of the Crystal Skulls weird alien mysterious presence.

Tell Lucas about the one buy in theory!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-18-2020

I would if I could!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-18-2020

Jar Jar is the key to all this


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-19-2020

I wanted to refresh my memory on the story of how RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK got set up at Paramount. It's still some good inside baseball:

Quote:Dale Pollock, George Lucas' biographer, in his book Skywalking wrote that Lucas initially wanted to finance the film by himself but he couldn't because he was facing cash-flow problems. Tom Pollock, Lucas' Hollywood attorney, and Charles Weber, Lucasfilm's financial chief, offered the script to every major studio, while Lucas and Spielberg drew-up a one-page contract between themselves. Weber sent out a form letter with the script to every studio. What they wanted actually was the studio to put up all the money, take all the risks, and give them the best terms anyone ever got. Studio chiefs were outraged with what became known as Lucas' "killer deal", but everybody called up within an hour and said they wanted to talk with them.

Paramount Pictures' President Michael Eisner said it was an unmakable deal. But Eisner had never read a better script than that, and the idea of turning down a film by Hollywood's dynamic duo made him uncomfortable. In order to balance their demands Eisner wanted the sequel rights to Raiders and strong penalties against Lucas if the film went over budget and schedule. Eisner got his penalties on the terms that Paramount would distribute Raiders forever but they won't have the right to produce any sequel without Lucas' involvement.

As Pollock continues his description of the deal he mentions that because of Lucas' lack of trust towards Hollywood studios he refused to honor anything other than a signed contract, leaving Paramount wonder if he would be part of the project or not. "All he said was 'Trust me'". So we had Spielberg who had spent a lot of money to make 1941, George saying trust me and us having to guarantee completion money for a film that might cost $50 million. It was not a standard deal, to say the least", said Eisner. Paramount was in panic and George Lucas was enjoying this. Why? Because, during the making of Star Wars Lucas was near a nervous break down from the pressure he felt from the studio. At the last days of filming they were threatening of taking the film from his hands, cut the negative and send it right to the theaters. Now it was time for Hollywood and its studio executives to taste some of their own medicine. The contract they finally signed dictated a $1 million directing fee to Spielberg, $1 million producer's fee to Lucas, and another $1 million to Lucasfilm as the production company. Spielberg also was guaranteed a percentage of the gross profits; the money Paramount would receive from theater owners while Lucas would have to wait for net profits.

Eisner had accepted everything except Lucas' refusal. In an effort to find a solution he called Bill Huyck and Gloria Katz, who made a film for Paramount and were long friends with Lucas. "You blew it, George wants to be trusted", they told Eisner. The very next day Eisner called Weber and accepted the terms. "I just decided to go the whole way. And once I said 'I trust you', it was the most professionally produced film I've ever seen. Not a dime over budget, handled totally smoothly, and never a fight. When he said it, I believed it", said Eisner in the times to come.

It's weird to think of Lucas having "cash-flow problems" after STAR WARS, but I think the nature of his arrangement with Fox meant he didn't start making real money on the franchise until EMPIRE. I leave it for the experts on that series to clarify, though.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Paul C - 06-19-2020

He sank all his Star Wars money right back into Empire, that's why he was angry with Kurtz when it went over-budget, and I'm guessing he didn't make it all back right away. That's probably around the same time they were putting Raiders together, so it would line up that he couldn't afford another blockbuster on top of it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-19-2020

It is interesting that the major reluctance from studios when RAIDERS was being shopped around was that they simply did not trust that Lucas could bring in the film for the modest budget he was asking for, and thus took it for granted that it would end up costing way more than $20 million. On paper, RAIDERS must have looked like the most expensive movie ever proposed (and the script had even more crazy set pieces than they ended up shooting), and it was probably difficult for studio heads to believe that Lucas and Spielberg were going to commit with such discipline to the down-and-dirty, television-inspired production schedule they had in mind for RAIDERS, especially since Spielberg had a reputation for going over budget in those days. Spielberg really approached the challenge with the attitude of having something to prove, and it was a pretty major turning point for him, because after RAIDERS it was absolutely the exception when he ever ran over budget or over schedule.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-19-2020

Yeah, was going to say that from that point on, Spielberg became VERY reliable in terms of schedule and budget.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - rexbanner - 06-19-2020

When you know the massive personal and financial risks Lucas was taking getting the OT made, it reveals a lot of the 'duhhh why did he surround himself with yes men duhh, real art always comes from adversity duhhhh' as the shallow, armchair producer nonsense it is.

The guy nearly gave himself heart attacks making the original Star Wars, a film everyone was telling him was going to ruin him; he then sank most of the profits he made from that into making Empire, which was not a slam dunk. If Empire had underperformed - which was a real possibility - his career would have been fucked and he'd have had to sell the rights to his creation to the studios that had repeatedly threatened to take his film off him and rush it into theatres. Gary Kurtz is painted as a hero for helping to make ESB as good as it is - and there's something in that, even when it's insanely overexaggerated - but Lucas wasn't being miserly when he was stressed about the film going overbudget.

After all that shit, I'd want to be as free from outside interference as possible,


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-19-2020

To be fair to Kurtz, the money is all onscreen in EMP. Best-looking SW movie, still.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-19-2020

And now the Hollywood Reporter version:

Quote:You’ve said that you’re no longer writing Indiana Jones 5 after doing several drafts of it for Steven Spielberg. I know it comes with the territory, but do you ever get used to the fact that no matter how much time and energy you devote to a screenwriting project, it always has the potential to be put in a drawer for eternity?

Well, that’s never one’s hope. (Laughs.) No, you don’t and you’re always disappointed if it doesn’t work out with the things you write. And they invariably become your favorite thing. I have a Howard Hughes script that I wrote with Brian De Palma like 20 years ago, and I’m convinced it’s the best thing I’ve ever done because it never got made. So, it’s easy to say! The reason Indiana Jones movies are so difficult is because it’s really difficult. (Laughs.) It’s hard. It has to be great. The first and third movies in that series are just utterly beloved, and ‘utterly beloved’ is a high bar. It’s really tough to get there. So, I did a couple versions of this last one that I thought were good; the last one, in particular. But it didn’t quite come together. Steven couldn’t do it in the end and whatever. It just didn’t come together. Sometimes, they do; sometimes, they don’t. But if there’s going to be another Indiana Jones movie, I think James Mangold is a great guy to explore it. Certainly, what he did with Logan was remarkable — with Scott Frank’s great, great script. So, we’ll see. But it’s okay. Usually, by the time you either get fired or they move on to somebody else or the project just evolves away from you — by that time, you’re secretly a little bit relieved because at least you don’t have to bang your head against it anymore. (Laughs.)

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/heat-vision/david-koepp-you-should-have-left-exiting-indiana-jones-5-1299412


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-19-2020

"Steven couldn't do it in the end" is an interesting statement.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-19-2020

Especially since Koepp immediately stopped himself and said, in essence, "Forget it; it's Chinatown." 

Koepp thinks he wrote a good script. Harrison Ford apparently concurred given his quotes back in February. But Spielberg "couldn't do it in the end." That could mean he vetoed the material, but it could also mean something else. I'm reminded that projects can fall apart for the most prosaic of reasons.

Existing scripts are tossed when a new director comes on board, almost as a rule, though it doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the existing script. And you can't help but assume that in the four years of noodling on it, Spielberg/Koepp/Ford must have come up with some kind of solid foundation, or at least some strong story ideas, or for crying out loud one or two killer set pieces. Could Mangold build on any of that, if they really came "close"?

They need to get on with making or cancelling this movie, so we can get it out the way and move on to the good stuff: the making-of book.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-19-2020

Very Ironic since Koepp butt fucked Darabonts City of Gods script and said something like "it's not great, and I'm going to eat some crow about this script for some time to come..."


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-19-2020

Well, the shoe's on the other foot in the sense that he's now in the same boat the other CRYSTAL SKULL writers were, but it's not like Koepp ever badmouthed Darabont or his work. I absolutely say Koepp wrote an objectively inferior script to Darabont under what I presume were similarly ridiculous constraints, but Lucas was the guy who exercised taste there. Koepp was hired to do a job and did it. It was up to Spielberg and Lucas to shoot the clearly better script when they had it in their hands. The blame is theirs for letting some other factor supersede the quality of the material and sending the project into turnaround for the nth time.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-19-2020

Oh I don't blame him. What a shit position to be put in. It's just ironic is all.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-20-2020

Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 01:18 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.

I agree. This will sound awful, but they're getting too hung-up on story stuff.

Indy searches for an item. Bad guys also want the item. Chases ensue, goons are killed, Indy's roughed-up but carries on, and the mythic power of the item is eventually revealed. Then, onto that framework, apply decent and engaging character interactions and at least three high-quality action setpieces.

They don't need to reinvent the narrative wheel in order to justify another adventure, but apparently Spielberg feels differently.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-20-2020

I will say that there's a little more to what makes the classic Indy films great than merely that (there's a level of care in the story construction and character writing that puts them a cut above even the best of their imitators that merely try to follow the formula you just laid out - the way Last Crusade ties everything together thematically between the Grail quest and the Joneses' old wounds is the most obvious example, but it's there in Raiders too, just not tied so neatly into a bow,) but yeah, it's not Proust.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-20-2020

Well, "decent and engaging character interactions" would cover at least the character writing element in my formula.

And I love LAST CRUSADE, but I really don't require the stakes to be so personal for Indy, because we can see what happens when that remains the focus and it goes wrong (as in CRYSTAL SKULL).


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-20-2020

I'm not saying that stuff's not important!

To quote myself and restate my main point:
(06-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: They don't need to reinvent the narrative wheel in order to justify another adventure.



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 01:52 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: And I love LAST CRUSADE, but I really don't require the stakes to be so personal for Indy, because we can see what happens when that remains the focus and it goes wrong (as in CRYSTAL SKULL).
This is true - but my point wasn't that it was personal (it really wasn't in Raiders, except in that Marion was involved,) but that everything was a lot better thought through than you get merely by checklisting a formula and sprinkling in miscellaneous "character interactions" by the measure.

But then, that is (I suspect) something that happened after they'd gotten the basic layout of the story in place, something that comes from proper revision and rewriting with one's brain fully engaged. In other words, not something that should be preventing them from ever getting to a point of saying "yeah, this is a workable story" in the first place.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-20-2020, 01:18 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.

I agree.  This will sound awful, but they're getting too hung-up on story stuff.

Indy searches for an item.  Bad guys also want the item.  Chases ensue, goons are killed, Indy's roughed-up but carries on, and the mythic power of the item is eventually revealed.  Then, onto that framework, apply decent and engaging character interactions and at least three high-quality action setpieces.

They don't need to reinvent the narrative wheel in order to justify another adventure, but apparently Spielberg feels differently.

I just played through Uncharted 4, which largely sticks to this formula, and no joke, it's one of the best action-adventure stories of this archetype I've ever consumed.  It's the video game Raiders of the Lost Ark.  I fell in love with the characters, I hoped they found success and I felt sad when they hit rough spots and jumped out of my chair with excitement when they had victories. 





I'm not kidding I LOOOOOOVED this game.  They even had the token goon muscle villain who in this case was a woman, who you can see here kicking Nate's fucking ass, because in any good action-adventure scenario the hero must be outclassed much of the time.

It might be on the top ten of my favorite games of all time and they don't do anything new to reinvent the wheel.  It's all classic tropes.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 01:18 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.

I'm not surprised at all that these get overthought to death

Because for us, it's just anticipating a movie we're looking forward to and then watching it.  I mean, fans can certainly have a lot more invested in a property than just that (no shit), but that's essentially what it is.

My assumption is that people at Spielberg/Lucas/Ford's level of movie achievement generally don't just go into something that prioritizes hitting the expected genre beats.  To care enough to dump so much time and effort into a production, you'd hope they'd care enough to need something more than simply revisiting their past glories.

And yes, sometimes that level of extended indecisiveness leads to a Crystal Skull and the situation they're in now.

After Crystal Skull, I imagine they feel even more pressure to deliver something special.  And while their repeated delays look funny to us from the outside, it's funny how easily some of us take for granted how easily these things go so wrong with the best of intentions.

Anything sounds super easy to do if you just boil it down to THIS:

Quote:Indy searches for an item. Bad guys also want the item. Chases ensue, goons are killed, Indy's roughed-up but carries on, and the mythic power of the item is eventually revealed. Then, onto that framework, apply decent and engaging character interactions and at least three high-quality action setpieces.

just a couple more drafts... maybe a punch-up here and there.  a few more days in the editing bay!

BADABING!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 03:00 AM)Nooj Wrote:
(06-20-2020, 01:18 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.

I'm not surprised at all that these get overthought to death

Because for us, it's just anticipating a movie we're looking forward to and then watching it.  I mean, fans can certainly have a lot more invested in a property than just that (no shit), but that's essentially what it is.

My assumption is that people at Spielberg/Lucas/Ford's level of movie achievement generally don't just go into something that prioritizes hitting the expected genre beats.  To care enough to dump so much time and effort into a production, you'd hope they'd care enough to need something more than simply revisiting their past glories.

And yes, sometimes that level of extended indecisiveness leads to a Crystal Skull and the situation they're in now.

After Crystal Skull, I imagine they feel even more pressure to deliver something special.  And while their repeated delays look funny to us from the outside, it's funny how easily some of us take for granted how easily these things go so wrong with the best of intentions.

Anything sounds super easy to do if you just boil it down to THIS:

Quote:Indy searches for an item. Bad guys also want the item. Chases ensue, goons are killed, Indy's roughed-up but carries on, and the mythic power of the item is eventually revealed. Then, onto that framework, apply decent and engaging character interactions and at least three high-quality action setpieces.

just a couple more drafts... maybe a punch-up here and there.  a few more days in the editing bay!

BADABING!

Counter point.

They literally had a great finished script in their fucking LAPS and they somehow didn't shoot it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 01:40 AM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-20-2020, 01:18 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Koepp saying how difficult it is to make these because RAIDERS and CRUSADE are so beloved definitely confirms to me that these filmmakers simply overthink too much with Indy. They put these simple adventure films way too high on a pedestal that they make themselves feel it’s too hard to reach. What a joke.

I agree.  This will sound awful, but they're getting too hung-up on story stuff.

Indy searches for an item.  Bad guys also want the item.  Chases ensue, goons are killed, Indy's roughed-up but carries on, and the mythic power of the item is eventually revealed.  Then, onto that framework, apply decent and engaging character interactions and at least three high-quality action setpieces.

They don't need to reinvent the narrative wheel in order to justify another adventure, but apparently Spielberg feels differently.

Yeah, Spielberg is out now, but all I kind of wanted from an fifth Indy movie was to see Spielberg try his hand at the kind of big set pieces he did in Tintin but in live-action and models instead of CGI. You know, do something like the Castle of Cagliostro car chase and the ship in the desert but with miniatures and stuff. I mean, I'd also like to see them pull off the basics idea of Indy movies switch up genres that Crystal Skull shit the bed on, but I'll also take just a return to a pure pulpy adventure movie with big fantastic practical sets and setpieces. Shit, they already did two send-offs for the character, so they don't even need to do that again.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 03:30 AM)freeman Wrote: Counter point.  

They literally had a great finished script in their fucking LAPS and they somehow didn't shoot it.

that's my point

you call them "THEY" but they clearly aren't on the same page and never seem to be able to reach a consensus about what each of them want

and from the sounds of it, not even in the small sample size of the people on this forum, not everyone thinks that Darabont script was great


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-20-2020

What a luxury it would be if we were in a position to complain about the fourth Indy movie being somewhat heedless in its gusto as opposed to being saddled with the dispassionate, squandered nothing of a movie we ultimately got.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-20-2020

but then we wouldn't have the latter to compare it to... and we'd still collectively complain!

WHAT ABOUT THE LUXURY OF HINDSIGHT WE HAVE NOW??


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-20-2020

Speaking of which, the CRYSTAL SKULL post-release thread is priceless:

http://citizens.trouble.city/showthread.php?tid=108066


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-20-2020

hahahahah the way it immediately starts off with the usual antics!

it's kinda comforting to see an old dukefleed post