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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 06-20-2020

(06-20-2020, 02:32 PM)fatherdude Wrote: Speaking of which, the CRYSTAL SKULL post-release thread is priceless:

http://citizens.trouble.city/showthread.php?tid=108066

Boy are there some rays of sunshine in that thread....


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-20-2020

hahahahah my immediate response to finally seeing Crystal Skull after pages and pages of pre-release/post-release thread chatter about early reviews

such memories!

Quote:05-23-2008, 01:45 AM
I can't put into words what I just came back from watching. I really can't say anything other people haven't already said.

Ugh..



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mondguy - 06-22-2020

(06-20-2020, 02:32 PM)fatherdude Wrote: Speaking of which, the CRYSTAL SKULL post-release thread is priceless:

http://citizens.trouble.city/showthread.php?tid=108066

(Shudders at second post)


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-22-2020

I do miss Pauly Mac.

paul mccartney Wrote:Plasticy sets? Stupid juvenile sight gags? A lack of a sense of real jeopardy for the hero?

Wow, sounds like EVERY OTHER INDIANA JONES MOVIE EVER RELEASED. Fanboys need some perspective.

That said, yes, I'm sure this sucks.



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - rexbanner - 06-22-2020

I know the post is dumb, but 'a lack of a sense of real jeopardy for the hero' is particularly dumb. I still get stressed at the bit in Temple when Indy's getting pulled into the machine (which has some of the most shameless cheating I've ever seen in terms of continuity, but it works) and when he's hopping across Jehovah. Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is really bad for cartoonish physical shit that's way more egregious than even the dingy fall in Temple of Doom.

I think the era of digital stuntmen has given a LOT of directors who should know the fuck better a false sense of what the human body can endure. Spielberg is quite bad for it - there's a bit in Bridge of Spies when a guy's flailing about outside his crashing airplane that shatters your suspension of disbelief - and Peter Jackson, of 'Kong pulling Naomi Watts from the plinth in a way that would rip her arms off' and 'Bilbo Baggins falling 200 metres down a rocky pit and surviving' fame is the worst by a country mile.

I think this is something people are getting over though - it crops up in Marvel films fairly regularly, but they're superheroes who are supposed to be able to take ridiculous beatings.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-22-2020

I always felt that Indy was pretty credibly put in jeopardy throughout the three movies. Just because we know he's not going to die doesn't mean those scenarios are devoid of a sense of danger. Indy slowly sliding towards the rock crusher in TEMPLE OF DOOM is a particular example; we know he'll get out of it, but it's still incredibly tense.

Of course, having real people doing real stuntwork goes a long way, too.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bartleby_scriven - 06-22-2020

My very first post was in that thread. I defended Crystal Skull, and was summarily pummeled for it!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-22-2020

I think there is more at play than the absence of physical stunt work, which CRYSTAL SKULL (apparently) had a fair amount of. The self-conscious lighting choices, the alienating filtration, the lack of non-U.S. location shooting and the abundance of digital backgrounds to make up for it have an aggregate, negative effect on the tangibility of the film's world. It's not about "realism," exactly, but about presenting a world where the stakes of the story can have some kind of reference point, and thus matter. The hilarious complaint about the wedding taking place in the town from BIG FISH is frustratingly on point. The previous Indy films may been going for a style other than realism, but at least they looked like they existed in a three dimensional space. CRYSTAL SKULL is fatally handicapped in terms of immersion for that superficial and maddeningly avoidable defect alone, and would have been even if it had a strong screenplay.

It did not have a strong screenplay.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-22-2020

I have to assume that there are fanedits of Crystal Skull around the web that tried to 'fix' the look of the film to feel more like Slocbome's work

never bothered to check though hahaha


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-22-2020

I have seen screenshots/clips of such attempts, but they're not very convincing, for obvious reasons. You can improve the color scheme, and certainly Kaminski's instincts there were decidedly un-Indy, but the major problems are baked into the celluloid. You can't digitally re-light the movie or undo the results of physical filtration. And the irony of fixing a movie with an overly digital look by applying more digital tools is not lost on me.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-22-2020

(06-22-2020, 04:25 PM)Nooj Wrote: I have to assume that there are fanedits of Crystal Skull around the web that tried to 'fix' the look of the film to feel more like Slocbome's work

never bothered to check though hahaha

There are two that I know of that radically color correct the entire film.  Both greatly improve the movie on that basis alone.

**One of them cuts about 25-30 minutes of screentime, like the nuking the fridge sequence and all the goofiness.  Makes for a better film.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-22-2020

I'm going to go out on a limb and say nuking the fridge wasn't a terrible idea for a scene. It's ABSURD and a bit crazy... But a neat fun idea all the same.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-22-2020

The fridge scene is kind of a bridge too far, even under the Looney Tunes logic it's working on. Even cartoon characters would have come out of that more worse for wear than Indy did.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-22-2020

You just brace yourself! No problems!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-22-2020

Hiding in the fridge is fine. Surviving being launched through the air inside it is not.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-22-2020

Brace yourself!!!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-22-2020

The sequels were already getting progressively cartoonish. The nuke fridge was just another step towards that direction.


This gag right here gave me MOONRAKER vibes.








RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-22-2020

Not a coincidence that sequence features the worst FX in the film.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-22-2020

I was going to bring that movie up when I said the fridge was a bridge too far. Last Crusade does have some cartoony gags, but they also work.





That's a cartoon gag, the way they get Brody wouldn't be out of place in a Loony Tunes cartoon either, but it's also not more cartoony than what you'd see in a cartoon. If that fridge scene happened in a Loony Tunes cartoon whatever character walked out of it would have been all dizzy, at the most they'd be missing teeth or there bill would be bent or turned around, or maybe they'd break like glass. Not saying Indiana Jones should have broken like glass, just saying that even a cartoon character would have come away more worse for wear. If it happened to Bugs Bunny and he came out looking perfectly fine he would've come out with someone else that looked like shit. So I guess what I'm saying is he should have pulled some Russian in there with him, (to soften the landing) and after they landed his dead body should have fallen out into camera (a shock jump scare, similar to Doc Ock in Raiders now that I think about it) looking terrible before Indy got out looking ok.

The big thing about the fridge gag though is as a gag it just doesn't work. I'd assume it's meant to be funny. Hell, it's basically the exact same gag you may have seen the year before in Hot Rod when Hot Rod falls down the mountain. But the Hot Rod gag works, and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull gag doesn't. Crystal Skull also caps it off with this big dramatic moment when Indy looks at the mushroom cloud, which if the comedy bit worked may have been an interesting mix of tones, but since it doesn't really work just further undermines that the fridge scene is meant to be funny at all, which just kind of makes it feel dumb instead of fun.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-22-2020

If Spielberg had been able to restrain himself from having the fridge violently smash and tumble into the ground over and over, I think most people would have accepted Indy's survival.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-22-2020

Well he can't just stay in the fridge right in the damn blast radius where the house was. The fridge has to move out of the blast zone somehow.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-22-2020

Yes. But you don't have to show it comically crashing around in a fashion nobody could survive.

Just have it smash into the ground once and come to rest.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-22-2020

Or you know, something as small as Indy selling the pain of it like he's never been in a worse car crash in his entire life. Like "Awwww, my back! Oh God!" Toby in Spider-Man 2 or like HIMSELF on the boat in Raiders. Instead, he pops out and is basically completely fine. Just like Old Man Indiana is for basically the entire movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-22-2020

But that's the comedy bit. I'm pretty sure it's meant to be funny, it's just the gag doesn't work, and since it doesn't work it just comes off as stupid since you're not taking it as it was intended...which is the fault of the movie, not the viewer.

These are the same scene.









Only Spielberg doesn't pull the comedy off. In fact, Spielberg's attempts at comedy are pretty bad in Kindgom of the Crystal Skull now that I think about it, makes me wonder if that's why his next stab at an Indiana Jones type adventure movie was the cartoon Tintin. Like maybe he thought it being a live-action movie instead of a cartoon what was making people not get what he was trying to do or something.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

Can we get a copy of the script and see if we can divine some intention out of the text?

I feel like the comedy of his pain and the comedy of "I JUST SURVIVED THE CRAZIEST SHIT AND IT HURTS SO BAD!" was the direction to go for this beat.

That's another thing I love about the Darabont draft btw. Indy gets blown up, sees no gopher, is in pain, and then he turns and we have the iconic shot of Indiana in front of the mushroom cloud. But in the Crystal Skull script he just kind of wanders off. But in the Darabont script he turns around to be faced down by the machine guns of the US military, who detain him. Out of the freezer and into the frying pan. That entire US military suspicion subplot is SO much better done. I see a youtube video about this in my future.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

The Darabont draft has a whole side quest about how Indy acquires a passport to even leave the country while under FBI surveillance. I felt respected reading it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - ravi - 06-23-2020

(06-22-2020, 09:31 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: The sequels were already getting progressively cartoonish. The nuke fridge was just another step towards that direction.


This gag right here gave me MOONRAKER vibes.






I'd still take that airplane sequence over Willie's elephant antics or the cringe-worthy monkey brain feast anyday. Even if Crusade has some comical bits, it has the emotional father-son stuff (which the other sequels never equal), Indy getting pissed at Elsa, sense of urgency with the Nazis & Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword being involved and the tense final sequence in the Grail temple to balance everything out.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

It's the complete reliance on VFX that cheapens the Messerschmidt sequence for me. Stark contrast to Raiders, which has maybe 30 optical effects in the entire film.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 01:34 AM)hammerhead Wrote: The Darabont draft has a whole side quest about how Indy acquires a passport to even leave the country while under FBI surveillance. I felt respected reading it.

I forgot about that scene! When he first encounters the Crystal Skull and gets lulled under it's spell for a moment. They end up doing that in the final film where Spalko ties up Indy, but I don't like it as much.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-23-2020

until the reveal of the prairie dog, I don't think the nuke fridge is meant to be HA HA FUNNY.

I take it to be a mix of desperate, surreal, and eventually apocalyptic

and Indy does pour out of the fridge looking pretty beat up (not anywhere near as beat up as he should be, obviously)


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

Stop tepidly defending the scene you ADVOCATE OF DEVILS!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-23-2020

it's less a defense and more of a disagreement with simbob's claim that it's meant to be comparable to a scene from HOT ROD

I see the nuke/fridge scene and see that it's going for desperate/surreal/apocalyptic... but don't actually feel most of those things by the end of it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

Right, I think that's fair to say.

The bigger problem is that they had a script that does every single little thing Crystal Skull does better, on almost a page to page basis. It's like they designed it to be a worse execution of ideas beat by beat by beat.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 01:39 AM)hammerhead Wrote: It's the complete reliance on VFX that cheapens the Messerschmidt sequence for me. Stark contrast to Raiders, which has maybe 30 optical effects in the entire film.
I'll grant you that, but I still think the way it's played meshes well with the general series vibe, like the other gags in Crusade. Not everything plays as well as the bit on the cliff after the tank sequence or Ford's all-timer double-take with "She talks in her sleep," but it gets a passing grade from me.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

I think Ford's game rises considerably when he has real actors to bounce off of and doesn't have to carry the show.