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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 02:30 AM)Nooj Wrote: it's less a defense and more of a disagreement with simbob's claim that it's meant to be comparable to a scene from HOT ROD

I see the nuke/fridge scene and see that it's going for desperate/surreal/apocalyptic... but don't actually feel most of those things by the end of it.

They're the same scene. Other then being shorter they're even shot in much the same way. They're both cartoon comedy gags, they're like something you'd see in an old Goofy short, or that bit in Porky Pig's Feat where the guy falls down the stairs. The differences between the two are in Hot Rod you hear Hot Rod every time he hits somethings as opposed to the crunch of the fridge, there's some nice stunt work in Hot Rod that sells it more than shots of the fridge, the Indy version is too short, and Hot Rod is in way more pain both after and (because we can hear him) during it.

The scene is trying to bounce back and fourth between tones. I'm not even going to argue it's not also trying to do those other things, it's just also trying to be funny too. I'm thinking the idea behind the scene was:

- Laugh with the reveal of the dummies in the house and the "Wait a minute."
- Stop laughing when you realize where he is. Some surrealism there when it goes to Howdy Doody, and he steps outside to find more dummies
- Laugh when he knocks the dummies over outside
- Stop laughing when the siren goes off.
- Laugh when it cuts around to the dummies and you've got stuff like the shocked looking dummy
- Stop laughing and worry when it reveals the bomb
- Laught as Indy tries to catch a ride with the Russians 
- Stop laughing has Indy rushed to find a way to escape as there's a countdown. Maybe this is meant to be tense? There is a countdown
- Laugh when his only way out in a fridge, and the reveal of it being lined with lead
- Stop laughing as all the dummies burn. Back to a kind of surreal apocalyptic horror as we watch what was once meant to be funny burning and melting. Although there's some funny shots in there too
- Laugh as Indy in the fridge passes the Russians that left him behind. There's a funny little sound effect on it too as they all watch him pass over head before they die...lucky for Indy he didn't get that ride.
- Laugh as Indy's fridge bangs around like nine different times from multiple angles.
- Laugh as Indy falls out of the fridge, looks around, and sees a prairie dog. Is the prairie dog meant to be some kind of callback to Caddyshack and the Gopher? Spielberg want use thinking about Kenny Loggins I'm Alright? Only reason I can think of the prairie dog being there, and the set up for it earlier. Indy falls out of the fridge, sees the prairie dog, and he's all right
- Stop laughing with the big dramatic reveal of the mushroom cloud

It's an interesting idea. And if Spielberg pulled off the comedy he's very clearly going for it could have been good. Thing is the Spielberg doesn't seem to handle any of the sight gags throughout the scene well. None of them really work. Some of that you could maybe attribute to the look of everything. But Ford isn't exactly selling the physical comedy. Nor are the line readings they're using for Ford the best...and maybe that's all they had to work with, but because of the trailer we know they also went with a weaker line reading when they had a far better one for a different scene. And Spielberg completely dropped the ball when it comes to the fridge getting banged all around. It's meant to be a rollercoaster ride, but because so much of it just doesn't really work at all none of it really works. Even the surreal moments, which I'd say work better than the comedy given they work at all, are still kind of weak.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 06-23-2020

It still amuses me that we accept Indy and crew plummeting from an airplane in a life raft which then proceeds to slalom down a mountain and over a waterfall with the end result being them just wet and tired, but the fridge bit is somehow a bridge too far.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

I always found the life raft scene kind of plausible. The way they shoot the thing it looks like one giant terminal velocity killing parachute.

It's certainly more plausible to my sensibilities than flying a few miles in a fridge going 100mph and not dying of radiation exposure soon after.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-23-2020

thanks for the point but point breakdown, simbob

but I still don’t see it as being that similar to HotRod


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-23-2020

I never bought the raft drop as being plausible but it's fun.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

The difference between practical effects and animation, perhaps. A miniature is still a real thing.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 10:50 AM)hammerhead Wrote: The difference between practical effects and animation, perhaps. A miniature is still a real thing.

That's a big difference for me.

In TEMPLE OF DOOM, we're clearly seeing something physically present falling out of the sky and landing.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-23-2020

If the fridge scene is an offense, it's a lesser one. At least it falls into the category of proper Indy setups, which the movie is bafflingly low on.

I think comparing and contrasting the fridge scene with other outlandish set pieces from the other movies in an attempt to crack the code on versimilitude is kind of missing the point. There is this fundamental inertness to CRYSTAL SKULL from the get go that it fails to climb out of. The movie never really gets into gear. The set pieces naturally suffer in effect from that macro idleness, maybe more fatally from that alone than from any individual faults in their own design.

To me the question is not whether it's more life threatening to hit the ground from a great height on a life raft versus riding a shockwave in a fridge, but why TEMPLE OF DOOM is so successful at achieving and sustaining a breathless momentum and CRYSTAL SKULL is so horrible at it. The raft scene doesn't happen in a vacuum. It takes place in the context of a pretty thrilling and propulsive opening stretch of the movie. The ride vehicle is very much in motion with that movie. Sure, the CGI is a factor that holds CRYSTAL SKULL back, but I think that weird detachedness that kills it is an aggregate effect, more than it is the consequence of any one thing.

I think. I have never really felt completely satisfied that I've figured out where the alchemy went so wrong. It's just a weirdly passive fucking movie. More simulator than rollercoaster.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - farsight - 06-23-2020

All they had to do to make the fridge scene work was have Indy grab some pillows/cushions off a bed or couch in the fake house, and get into the fridge with them. It makes Indy clever, instead of surviving only via plot armor.

You can even have him tumble out of the fridge after, lay still on the ground for a beat, then grab a pillow and tuck it under his head while he catches a breath. It'd generate a laugh that's earned instead of cartoony.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

fatherdude makes good points. When a movie is consistently entertaining, disbelief is suspended.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-23-2020

Yup. Good movies get a pass on things bad movies don't. This is also why people responding to criticism of JJ-Wars's "watchin' space get blowed up out ma back porch window" scene with "well, the OT wasn't realistic either!!!" are silly and wrong.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

I'll never tire of marveling that Raiders sells us a fricking TALKING MONKEY.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 06:24 AM)Richard Dickson Wrote: It still amuses me that we accept Indy and crew plummeting from an airplane in a life raft which then proceeds to slalom down a mountain and over a waterfall with the end result being them just wet and tired, but the fridge bit is somehow a bridge too far.

It amuses me that anyone would think that climbing into a metal fridge, then surviving being blasted miles through the air after being pummeled by the force of a nuclear explosion requires no more of a suspension of disbelief than a scene suggesting that a very large inflated life raft (that is oriented for maximum "air catch-itude" ... and which lands on water) might slow down the rate of descent from a plane enough for two people to survive the landing.

There's bending physics, and then there's shoveling a pile of horseshit into our face and trying to get us to swallow it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 06-23-2020

It doesn't land on water, it lands on snowy rocky ground that somehow doesn't tear the thing to shreds as it slides across it.

And I'll say this every chance I get: for me, the most egregious error is having Indy using the shotgun shells to find the skull's crate and not leading up to the Russians trying to shoot him and being out of ammo. That's a classic Indy gag just sitting right there and they just whiff on it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bradito - 06-23-2020

Remember when Mola Ram tore the guy's heart out (with his bare hand) and the heartless guy didn't die instantly?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 05:11 PM)bradito Wrote: Remember when Mola Ram tore the guy's heart out (with his bare hand) and the heartless guy didn't die instantly?

In real life, there are no gods, grails that grant eternal life, golden chests that can summon vengeful spirits, etc.  Pointing out that supernatural occurrences in films aren't "realistic" kind of misses the point, doesn't it?

You either buy the existence of "magic"/supernatural in the world of Indiana Jones, or you don't.


(06-23-2020, 05:06 PM)Richard Dickson Wrote: It doesn't land on water, it lands on snowy rocky ground that somehow doesn't tear the thing to shreds as it slides across it.

And I'll say this every chance I get:  for me, the most egregious error is having Indy using the shotgun shells to find the skull's crate and not leading up to the Russians trying to shoot him and being out of ammo.  That's a classic Indy gag just sitting right there and they just whiff on it.

You are right!  The fall is broken by the slide down a cliff!

You pointed out that the missed "classic" Indy gag in the Crystal Skull thread.  You were right then, and you're right now.  It would have made Indy's completely out-of-character cooperation with the villains infinitely more acceptable.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 05:17 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-23-2020, 05:11 PM)bradito Wrote: Remember when Mola Ram tore the guy's heart out (with his bare hand) and the heartless guy didn't die instantly?
You either buy the existence of "magic"/supernatural in the world of Indiana Jones, or you don't.

In real life, there are no gods, grails that grant eternal life, golden chests that can summon vengeful spirits, etc. Pointing out that supernatural occurrences in films aren't "realistic" kind of misses the point, doesn't it?
* thatsthejoke.gif *


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 05:17 PM)Overlord Wrote: It would have made Indy's completely out-of-character cooperation with the villains infinitely more acceptable.

Indy being so willing to help the Soviets (really throughout the movie) bugs me. When Mutt forces them to try to escape the Soviet camp later in the movie, Indy's upset!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-23-2020

INDY JONES:

AND THE COMPLICITY OF THE GODS!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bradito - 06-23-2020

It would've been kind of hilarious if Indy just was a full-on Commie in the fourth one.

"What didja expect? I'm a college professor."


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 05:26 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-23-2020, 05:17 PM)Overlord Wrote: It would have made Indy's completely out-of-character cooperation with the villains infinitely more acceptable.

Indy being so willing to help the Soviets (really throughout the movie) bugs me.  When Mutt forces them to try to escape the Soviet camp later in the movie, Indy's upset!

As seems to be happening with disturbing regularity these days, it made me wonder if the writers of Indy IV had ever watched an Indiana Jones movie and paid attention to anything more than surface characteristics.

To quote myself from a while ago in this thread:


Quote:The reason why the Indy IV discussion died down relatively quickly is because neither side started attacking the other's personal attributes due to them liking, or not liking, the movie.  

I often wonder if the people who wrote Indy IV had ever really sat down and dissected the prior Indy scripts as to what makes an Indy film (you would think Lucas or Spielberg would at least have some inkling). Here's some issues the writers of Indy IV get fundamentally wrong in terms of writing "an Indy movie," off the top of my head:

1.)The opening scene is not supposed to be connected to the main plot.

2.)Indy does NOT cooperate with the enemy.  In fact, it is a defining aspect of his character that he refuses to cooperate even when, at least, FEIGNING cooperation, would arguably be the more rational approach.

3.)Indy is not passive.  He leads the adventure and does not merely retrace someone's steps or copy another's actions.

4.)While Indy often benefits from, or takes advantage of, opportunities presented during action sequences, as a general rule he does NOT succeed by blind luck or deus ex machinas.  He kills people, his antagonists do not just fortuitously get eliminated by random chance.

5.)There is ALWAYS a push/pull dynamic with Indy's love interests that DIRECTLY affects how the events of the plot unfold.  They don't just get carried along.  Let me also note that the death of the gal who wrote Romancing the Stone at such a young age was a tremendous loss for Hollywood, as she clearly got it.  

6.)The villains DIRECTLY get their comeuppance by not respecting an ancient tradition, while Indiana survives by not only respecting it, but by learning something from it.  

7.)Indiana, at some point, has to choose between The Quest™ and Human Life™.  And he chooses wisely, while the villains always choose poorly.  

These are ALL concepts that people who wrote video games in the 80s and 90s understood, but somehow the writers of Indy IV utterly and completely failed to grasp.  

This is in addition to the numerous technical problems, like the film not looking anything like the first three, the lazy and ineffective use of CGI, the obvious non-location shooting, and some really terribly conceived action sequences.  

**I would note that I thought Shia was fine.  The script is the problem, not him. 

****I think the motorcycle chase sequence is the only part of the film I unreservedly like.  I revisit it fairly regularly.



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 04:40 PM)hammerhead Wrote: I'll never tire of marveling that Raiders sells us a fricking TALKING MONKEY.

Didn’t early drafts for Dr. No originally have the title villain revealed to be a monkey? I wonder if that was a in joke by Spielberg. He did cite that movie as a big influence.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

Overlord, literally every single one of those points Darabont respects.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 06-23-2020

Doesn't Temple of Doom kinda fly in the face of #1? He's only in India as a result of the events of the opening sequence.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-23-2020

TEMPLE's opening scene is still doing the GOLDFINGER thing of "here's the climax of a whole other adventure that we didn't see!"

CRYSTAL SKULL's opening is entirely about the plot of the movie to follow.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 06:13 PM)freeman Wrote: Overlord, literally every single one of those points Darabont respects.

While Darabont's script wasn't perfect, it was a fuck-ton better than what we got.

Same goes for the Monkey King script by Columbus.



(06-23-2020, 07:07 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: TEMPLE's opening scene is still doing the GOLDFINGER thing of "here's the climax of a whole other adventure that we didn't see!"

"That we didn't see" .... Belloq87, swipe below if you want to be COMPLETELY spoiled:

Actually, we DID end up seeing that "whole other adventure."  The Young Indiana Jones episode "Treasure of the Peacock's Eye," which is the only treasure-hunt episode of Young Indy (and one of only 4-5 episodes I actually like) depicts the search for the diamond that appears in the opening for Temple of Doom.  At the end of the episode Chinese pirates steal the diamond and vanish with it.  


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

Another thing I like about the Darabont script. There's "memba berries", but they're not obnoxious and terrible. Indy goes through a harrowing action scene, Marion says something sly to him and he responds while rubbing his sore joints "it's not the mileage honey, it's the years." Marion smiles and laughs a bit and Indy smiles back. This is a key moment towards the two reconnecting with each other, it's obviously a memba berry reference for fans, but CRUCIALLY, crucially it's a new moment with a new context that functions in the new story.

It's not a shot of the Ark of the Covenant with the theme playing going "memba??? Huuuuuuh memba??"


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

There's a pretty thick callback early on, where we see the Chacapoyan Fertility Idol again, this time in a modern museum, and Indy has to get past a reminiscent burglar alarm.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 08:38 PM)hammerhead Wrote: There's a pretty thick callback early on, where we see the Chacapoyan Fertility Idol again, this time in a modern museum, and Indy has to get past a reminiscent burglar alarm.

I loved that gag even though I know lots of people will roll their eyes at it, because it's doing what Stallone did, using nostalgia of the past to tell this new story now. Indiana's age isn't ignored and referenced only in a few jokes like "pops" or whatever. It's an integral part of the story. A drunken humiliated disgraced Indiana tours the museum and witnesses all of his past glories and hilariously decides in a fit of drunken anger to steal the idol again. But this scene isn't JUST a memba berry because "hey memba?" It's an important part of telling this new story about where Indiana is now in his life as an older man in a very different world reflecting on his life.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 06-23-2020

It could work as a legit story point. Who knows, maybe it'll resurface.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 06:27 PM)Richard Dickson Wrote: Doesn't Temple of Doom kinda fly in the face of #1?  He's only in India as a result of the events of the opening sequence.

And CRUSADE features Henry Jones Sr working on his diary, already setting up the main story.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-23-2020

Well, I mean, if we want to get that pedantic about it, the opening of RAIDERS also sets up Belloq.

The point being made is that the first three films have opening sequences that are about Indy finishing a pursuit involving some other, unrelated-to-the-rest-of-the-movie's-story artifact.

CRYSTAL SKULL's opening scene, though a cold open, sure, is entirely about setting up the main narrative.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-23-2020

(06-23-2020, 10:19 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: Well, I mean, if we want to get that pedantic about it, the opening of RAIDERS also sets up Belloq.

The point being made is that the first three films have opening sequences that are about Indy finishing a pursuit involving some other, unrelated-to-the-rest-of-the-movie's-story artifact.

CRYSTAL SKULL's opening scene, though a cold open, sure, is entirely about setting up the main narrative.

Belloq resisted the inclination to "swipe to read."


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-24-2020

I don’t think those rules are so important that CRYSTAL SKULL breaking them hurts the film. It’s got other issues.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

How about the fact that they had this big angry Russian heavy for Indy to fight, they had this giant cool Jungle Cutter vehicle clearing out jungle, and they DIDN'T have Indy fight the guy on top of it and have the big Russian thrown into the cutter blades.

Instead they had Indy have an honest to God fist fight with the younger stronger man amongst CG ants that Indy straight up just wins. No clever twist no using his wisdom, just a 70 year old man beating up a big Russian.