The Trouble City Forums
INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

+- The Trouble City Forums (http://citizens.trouble.city)
+-- Forum: Main Street (http://citizens.trouble.city/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Focused Film Discussion (http://citizens.trouble.city/forumdisplay.php?fid=94)
+--- Thread: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion (/showthread.php?tid=155331)



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bradito - 06-24-2020

Now I want to watch this again.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

CURSES!!!!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 01:26 AM)freeman Wrote: How about the fact that they had this big angry Russian heavy for Indy to fight, they had this giant cool Jungle Cutter vehicle clearing out jungle, and they DIDN'T have Indy fight the guy on top of it and have the big Russian thrown into the cutter blades.

Instead they had Indy have an honest to God fist fight with the younger stronger man amongst CG ants that Indy straight up just wins.  No clever twist no using his wisdom, just a 70 year old man beating up a big Russian.

The ant stuff is one of the few things that actually works for the most part. I like it, a nice call back to The Naked Jungle...which is a much better movie.

The real shame with the Jungle Cutter vehicle is they actually filmed a lot of that stuff, but they ended up added so much CGI into it, it may as well have all been against a green screen for how fake it all looked.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020





I will admit this movie pretty strictly sticks to the late stage career John Williams routine, which is to have one and only one track which is TRULY excellent.  The Skulls theme is eerie, creepy, sinister.  As it should be.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 01:31 AM)bradito Wrote: Now I want to watch this again.

It's better than film school. Spielberg's staging is generally excellent*, but the ways in which the movie doesn't work are just so strange. I feel like CRYSTAL SKULL has tons to offer, academically.

*Demise of Mac may not apply.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 08:08 AM)freeman Wrote: I will admit this movie pretty strictly sticks to the late stage career John Williams routine, which is to have one and only one track which is TRULY excellent.
The complete jungle chase sequence (not the hacked-up track which appears on the soundtrack album, and contains less than half of the music from the scene) is the real highlight of the score...




And most of JW's 21st century scores have far more than one highlight track.

(06-24-2020, 08:21 AM)fatherdude Wrote: *Demise of Mac may not apply.
Perhaps the most baffling moment in the film.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bradito - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 08:21 AM)fatherdude Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 01:31 AM)bradito Wrote: Now I want to watch this again.

It's better than film school. Spielberg's staging is generally excellent*, but the ways in which the movie doesn't work are just so strange. I feel like CRYSTAL SKULL has tons to offer, academically.

I honestly believe that you can learn more from a bad movie than a good movie, since good movies make their quality seem effortless and you take it for granted. Bad movies cause you to engage with them differently because there's a disconnect between you and the narrative; you pull back the curtain a bit to try and find what's not working.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Jones - 06-24-2020

That's true in life too, you learn more from a loss than a win. Or you should, anyway.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 06:08 PM)Jones Wrote: That's true in life too, you learn more from a loss than a win.  Or you should, anyway.

Uhhh ..... what?

While one can certainly learn from mistakes, that's really only in the service of figuring out the RIGHT way to do something.   I'd rather learn the way to do something right as opposed to the the trillion ways to do it wrong.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bradito - 06-24-2020

I'm a huge fuckup but I'm always learning!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mondguy - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 11:06 AM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 08:21 AM)fatherdude Wrote: *Demise of Mac may not apply.
Perhaps the most baffling moment in the film.

I still remember someone in my midnight screening yelling "JUST. STAND. UP"


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 11:06 AM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 08:08 AM)freeman Wrote: I will admit this movie pretty strictly sticks to the late stage career John Williams routine, which is to have one and only one track which is TRULY excellent.
The complete jungle chase sequence (not the hacked-up track which appears on the soundtrack album, and contains less than half of the music from the scene) is the real highlight of the score...




And most of JW's 21st century scores have far more than one highlight track.

(06-24-2020, 08:21 AM)fatherdude Wrote: *Demise of Mac may not apply.
Perhaps the most baffling moment in the film.

I do remember the jungle chase having some great musical segments in it, but I stick by my theory.

Name me one track from the Sequel Trilogy that doesn't rely heavily on past tracks that is a new memorable classic. You've got Reys theme, and then you've kind of got a Kylo theme that is a couple of sinister notes that is the dark echo of Rey. March of the Resistance? Generic fluff. Couldn't hum the tune if you put a gun to my head.

Williams doesn't do many big sexy pieces anymore, it's all about blending into the action onscreen instead of the music being a star in and of itself. That's fine. As John Carpenter has said he likes his music like wallpaper.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 06-24-2020

The style of the times, sadly. It's been said so many times, but why don't the Avengers all have their own leitmotifs? They stumbled across a good one for the Avengers as a team, and it ended up being beloved, and a huge marketing hook.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

I would actually argue you've at least kind of got cues for the major players. Thor technically has a theme as does Tony and Cap. But no they don't show up as often as they should to underline the characters, especially in crossovers where they seem to be non existent.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 07:37 PM)freeman Wrote: Name me one track from the Sequel Trilogy that doesn't rely heavily on past tracks that is a new memorable classic.  You've got Reys theme, and then you've kind of got a Kylo theme that is a couple of sinister notes that is the dark echo of Rey.  March of the Resistance?  Generic fluff.  Couldn't hum the tune if you put a gun to my head.

I can hum the Resistance theme!

Williams' motif for Rey's approach to Luke at the end of Forwakens (Jedi Steps) is really nice too.  Continued in Last Jedi!

Luke's walk toward his final confrontation with Kylo in Last Jedi is really nice too

This isn't to say I disregard your point about the way Williams' more recent work is less memorable for us in general. I just find it funny that you go "NAME ME ONE MEMORABLE TRACK!!!" and then call out a couple of them yourself

(06-24-2020, 07:46 PM)arjen rudd Wrote: The style of the times, sadly. It's been said so many times, but why don't the Avengers all have their own leitmotifs? They stumbled across a good one for the Avengers as a team, and it ended up being beloved, and a huge marketing hook.

as to my experience of the theme, I actually found the AVENGERS theme kinda bland at the time.  If I tried to hum it, I would just end up humming Poledouris' theme for STARSHIP TROOPERS instead

If anything, I think the theme grew to be beloved more because the marketing for the two INFINITY movies used them heavily.  I actually do think the theme is good!  But I grew into it more due to eventual repetition.


Recently rewatching EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, I was particularly struck by just how often the movie cues up the Imperial March over and over.  At some point, it almost felt like parody.  No question it's an amazing theme that deserves its status as a classic.  But I don't think it can be denied how much the repetition really drilled it into people's heads by the time they came out of the theater.

I think that's an element that's missing in a lot of modern scores (in addition to modern sound mixes drowning them out with aggressive sound design).  They don't lean as hard on the repetiition of themes/leitmotifs as we're used to from our youth.  Almost like they're ashamed of it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 06:58 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 06:08 PM)Jones Wrote: That's true in life too, you learn more from a loss than a win.  Or you should, anyway.

Uhhh ..... what?

While one can certainly learn from mistakes, that's really only in the service of figuring out the RIGHT way to do something.   I'd rather learn the way to do something right as opposed to the the trillion ways to do it wrong.

No wonder you hate TLJ


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 08:58 PM)Nooj Wrote: I think that's an element that's missing in a lot of modern scores (in addition to modern sound mixes drowning them out with aggressive sound design).  They don't lean as hard on the repetiition of themes/leitmotifs as we're used to from our youth.  Almost like they're ashamed of it.
This is totally the case. I know we've had this discussion elsewhere and someone was mentioning that several major film composers have said that directors/producers actually tell them not to make the music stirring or memorable, which is just insane to me.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 09:11 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 06:58 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 06:08 PM)Jones Wrote: That's true in life too, you learn more from a loss than a win.  Or you should, anyway.

Uhhh ..... what?

While one can certainly learn from mistakes, that's really only in the service of figuring out the RIGHT way to do something.   I'd rather learn the way to do something right as opposed to the the trillion ways to do it wrong.

No wonder you hate TLJ

I actually discussed this exact same thing in the TLJ thread ...

http://citizens.trouble.city/showthread.php?tid=159913&pid=4432197#pid4432197


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Reasor - 06-24-2020

The giant cartoon ants bother me far more than the refrigerator launch scene. Pacing is part of the issue, but a lot of the problem is just giant cartoon ants, from concept to execution.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 08:58 PM)Nooj Wrote: This isn't to say I disregard your point about the way Williams' more recent work is less memorable for us in general.

I guess it depends on how far back “recent” extends, but since 2008 (the year CRYSTAL SKULL was released), I think a case could be made that TINTIN, WAR HORSE, LINCOLN, and THE FORCE AWAKENS are top-quality Williams scores. Of course, I'm a person who listens to those scores frequently, so I'm obviously more likely to find them memorable than somebody who just heard them in the movie once.

WAR HORSE is possibly my favorite score of the entire 2010s.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 09:45 PM)Reasor Wrote: The giant cartoon ants bother me far more than the refrigerator launch scene.  Pacing is part of the issue, but a lot of the problem is just giant cartoon ants, from concept to execution.

Can't we just find both fucking awful?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Reasor - 06-24-2020

I don't hate the fridge, but I'm not the judge of you.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 06-24-2020

The fridge is dumb, but it's not nearly as damaging to the movie as, say, the underwhelming nonsense that was the climax.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

Nooj I think you being able to hum the Resitance theme says more about you as a film fan than it does the score being very memorable. Most people don't listen to film scores for fun.

Honestly the last time I listened to an entire film score front to back and enjoyed the experience was, ironically enough, James Horner's Avatar stuff lol.

(06-24-2020, 09:45 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 08:58 PM)Nooj Wrote: This isn't to say I disregard your point about the way Williams' more recent work is less memorable for us in general.

I guess it depends on how far back “recent” extends, but since 2008 (the year CRYSTAL SKULL was released), I think a case could be made that TINTIN, WAR HORSE, LINCOLN, and THE FORCE AWAKENS are top-quality Williams scores. Of course, I'm a person who listens to those scores frequently, so I'm obviously more likely to find them memorable than somebody who just heard them in the movie once.

WAR HORSE is possibly my favorite score of the entire 2010s.

This is a good point. I was ignoring most of those examples which were strong.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 06-24-2020

The ants are almost worth it for the throaty sounds Ben Burtt makes them emit, but that sequence is a fundamental misunderstanding of the appeal of the creepy crawly tradition of this series. It's unfortunately timed as well, as it serves as the capper of the movie's centerpiece action sequence - one thoroughly compromised by the everpresence of CGI. Digital effects may have been the only way to pull off the envisioned ocean of ants, but maybe that vision should have been more carefully considered, and with THE NAKED JUNGLE pulling off something more dangerous feeling fifty years earlier, there is no excuse for the punt.

Darabont's version would have been interesting because his ants were much bigger than the ones depicted in CRYSTAL SKULL, but as part of an overall "the lost city has made the nearby jungle wildlife unnaturally larger" conceit. So there is an actual reason, whereas the Koepp version just gives us movie ants that are bigger than normal because they are movie ants. It's a small point but feels of a piece with the shrugging "let's throw this at the wall" nature of much of CRYSTAL SKULL's ideas - not dissimilar to how the Nazca lines are tossed in as a potentially intriguing element without ever really being developed or tied into the overall story in a meaningful way. It also makes the ants feel cartoonier because we're asked to take them at face value.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

So following the logic, the ants and the snakes being giant are a conceit Lucas wanted because of 50's sci fi movies and I believe Monkey King had something to do with ants, but they ultimately dropped that, but the giant ants remained anyways.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Jones - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 09:33 PM)Overlord Wrote: I actually discussed this exact same thing in the TLJ thread ...

http://citizens.trouble.city/showthread.php?tid=159913&pid=4432197#pid4432197

The general idea here is that if you find yourself losing or failing at something, then at the very least you can (or should be able to) take away some knowledge from that loss that may help in the future when you try try again.  It's not a commentary on "structured learning environments", mostly because in real life there simply aren't the opportunities to attend a structured learning environment before having to do something you might fail at.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 10:30 PM)freeman Wrote: Nooj I think you being able to hum the Resitance theme says more about you as a film fan than it does the score being very memorable.  Most people don't listen to film scores for fun.I

I didn’t listen to the scores for the sequel trilogy much at all (I haven’t listened to a new score on album much in general). I’m basing my recollection on hearing it in the movies.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-24-2020

(06-24-2020, 11:34 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 10:30 PM)freeman Wrote: Nooj I think you being able to hum the Resitance theme says more about you as a film fan than it does the score being very memorable.  Most people don't listen to film scores for fun.I

I didn’t listen to the scores for the sequel trilogy much at all (I haven’t listened to a new score on album much in general). I’m basing my recollection on hearing it in the movies.

Then either you're Rain Man, or I do not believe you.  I demand a Discord chat where you prove you can hum it accurately.  NO CHEATING!  I'll be able to tell if you cheat.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-25-2020

(06-24-2020, 08:58 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(06-24-2020, 07:37 PM)freeman Wrote: Name me one track from the Sequel Trilogy that doesn't rely heavily on past tracks that is a new memorable classic.  You've got Reys theme, and then you've kind of got a Kylo theme that is a couple of sinister notes that is the dark echo of Rey.  March of the Resistance?  Generic fluff.  Couldn't hum the tune if you put a gun to my head.

I can hum the Resistance theme!

Williams' motif for Rey's approach to Luke at the end of Forwakens (Jedi Steps) is really nice too.  Continued in Last Jedi!

Luke's walk toward his final confrontation with Kylo in Last Jedi is really nice too

This isn't to say I disregard your point about the way Williams' more recent work is less memorable for us in general.  I just find it funny that you go "NAME ME ONE MEMORABLE TRACK!!!" and then call out a couple of them yourself

(06-24-2020, 07:46 PM)arjen rudd Wrote: The style of the times, sadly. It's been said so many times, but why don't the Avengers all have their own leitmotifs? They stumbled across a good one for the Avengers as a team, and it ended up being beloved, and a huge marketing hook.

as to my experience of the theme, I actually found the AVENGERS theme kinda bland at the time.  If I tried to hum it, I would just end up humming Poledouris' theme for STARSHIP TROOPERS instead

If anything, I think the theme grew to be beloved more because the marketing for the two INFINITY movies used them heavily.  I actually do think the theme is good!  But I grew into it more due to eventual repetition.


Recently rewatching EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, I was particularly struck by just how often the movie cues up the Imperial March over and over.  At some point, it almost felt like parody.  No question it's an amazing theme that deserves its status as a classic.  But I don't think it can be denied how much the repetition really drilled it into people's heads by the time they came out of the theater.

I think that's an element that's missing in a lot of modern scores (in addition to modern sound mixes drowning them out with aggressive sound design).  They don't lean as hard on the repetiition of themes/leitmotifs as we're used to from our youth.  Almost like they're ashamed of it.

Yeah, they Averages theme is a pretty unremarkable theme that isn't all that memorable. But you bet your going to remember that theme after almost a decade of showing up in some of the biggest movies ever made.

Empire Strikes Back kind of is parody. The amount of times Vader chocks some underling to death is comical, especially in comparison to Star Wars.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-25-2020

You Resistance theme hummers are fucking weird.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-25-2020

Williams has always been dependable on making memorable themes. For the sequels, I really love Rose's theme in TLJ, which just highlights what a shame it was that Rose got the short stick in TROS because I don't recall if it was ever reprised in that beyond maybe a nod.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - freeman - 06-25-2020

Rose wasn't on screen long enough for even a short riff lmfao.

I noticed as I listened to the Jungle Chase track how much modern Williams likes those little tiny micro riffs. Spalko doesn't have a theme so much as she has a little five-second "motif" that basically says "villain on screen." And the Mutt swinging like Tarzan moment stands out like a ...

Jesus Christ.

Mutt swinging like Tarzan. I forgot that happened.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-25-2020

Spielberg was definitely embracing his inner Saturday Morning Cartoon with CRYSTAL SKULL.

Maybe Spielberg would have allowed Indy to shoot people if it was lasers instead of bullets.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-25-2020

Yes, it was a shame they short shifted Rose in The Rise of Skywalker. Such a wonderful new character. Truely wonderful.

I wish I could forget Tarzan Mutt. Remember when swinging around like Tarzan was cool? Then Crystal Skull came along and fucked it up. Tarzan Swinging, it had a good run.