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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

AIndy's gonna end up being Han's ancestor....you watch!

No but seriously....when is this supposed to be set? Early 70s? Whatever he's on a quest for....be it a person, object, place, knowledge or whatever, do we think that it should thematically tie in with Ford's age now or still just be any ol' macguffin.

Personally , I'm fine with whatever the quest is for, provided it sparks my imagination the way the first two do..


- arjen rudd - 09-05-2017

No more family drama. It's terrible. Indy's granddaughter, you fools? Unless this is terrible comedy, that's indefensible.



I pitch Indiana Jones and the Doorways of Perception. While searching for hidden Navajo gold in the Arizona desert, Dr. Jones must contend with Hell's Angels, mysterious skinwalkers, and maybe like some kind of Manson-ish cult or something, all the while in thrall to ever-escalating peyote trip. The climax involves Indy's third eye opening to the point where he is able to control light and air, ultimately rising above consciousness, seeing life from all perspectives simultaneously and entering the realm of the infinite. Mutt is never mentioned.




- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
 

No more family drama. It's terrible. Indy's granddaughter, you fools? Unless this is terrible comedy, that's indefensible.



One could almost say it is intolerable! Wink




- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

AActually.....when it comes to Indy.....I find myself looking at those movies in slightly the wrong way. It's always about the Macguffin. But the PLACE is just as important. Sometimes more. The Ark and the Grail are just awesome but the Sankara stones aren't just super interesting. It's the Temple of Doom itself that makes the movie (among many other great things) that make it so wonderful. We need Indy in a unique environment. Snow. Japan. Australia. The Pyramids. Indy goes Revenant. Native American folklore..


- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="Arjen Rudd" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1380#post_4356326"]No more family drama. It's terrible. Indy's granddaughter, you fools? Unless this is terrible comedy, that's indefensible.

I pitch Indiana Jones and the Doorways of Perception. While searching for hidden Navajo gold in the Arizona desert, Dr. Jones must contend with Hell's Angels, mysterious skinwalkers, and maybe like some kind of Manson-ish cult or something, all the while in thrall to ever-escalating peyote trip. The climax involves Indy's third eye opening to the point where he is able to control light and air, ultimately rising above consciousness, seeing life from all perspectives simultaneously and entering the realm of the infinite. Mutt is never mentioned.
[/quote]
Now this is a great idea. That all sounds cool. And HELL FUCKING YEA, no more family drama.

I was thinking Japan could be unique as well.

ETA: It's late and I'm bleary but can't sleep and repeated Japan. Lol maybe more than once..


- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
 

No more family drama. It's terrible. Indy's granddaughter, you fools? Unless this is terrible comedy, that's indefensible.



I pitch Indiana Jones and the Doorways of Perception. While searching for hidden Navajo gold in the Arizona desert, Dr. Jones must contend with Hell's Angels, mysterious skinwalkers, and maybe like some kind of Manson-ish cult or something, all the while in thrall to ever-escalating peyote trip. The climax involves Indy's third eye opening to the point where he is able to control light and air, ultimately rising above consciousness, seeing life from all perspectives simultaneously and entering the realm of the infinite. Mutt is never mentioned.


Get to fuck.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="Judas Booth" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1380#post_4356264"]INDIANA JONES AND THE LOST CITY OF EL DORADO[/quote]

Ummm.


- barry woodward - 09-05-2017

This time Indy's partner / sidekick should be a younger, female, British version of himself, played by Hayley Atwell.




- arjen rudd - 09-05-2017

AThe only extended Jones family bullshit I could have tolerated was Selleck as the ne'er do well brother, but Uncharted totally just did exactly that. And even then, it's still worse than something with no Jones family bullshit.


- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Okay, few things.



#1. This movie is getting made no matter what. Even if this particular iteration starring Ford doesn't get off the ground, Disney bought Lucasfilm to make more movies.



#2. Indy is a product of the pulp era, give or take the 1890s to 1939 (give or take, starts with Sherlock Holmes, ends with Action Comics #1). You can debate that, but let's just say an Indy during and post-WWII is a very different creature. One of the few things Crystal Skull got right is showing Indy being dwarfed by the power of the Atomic Age.



#3. Indy is not like James Bond, even if the former was inspired by the latter. Even if you recast him, the stories would still be set during the "pulp era." A sliding timeline doesn't work for the character, so you'll never have a 35-year-old Indy in the '80s or the present day.



#4. So taking 1-3 into account, you have a character that is aged past his prime and out of his element. The story has to acknowledge this. If you attempt to tell the same old story, Professor Henry Jones Jr. leaves the comfort of his teaching position to pursue a McGuffin in his alter ego of Indiana Jones, it just doesn't work with an almost 80-year-old Ford in a story that will organically be set in the late '60s or early '70s.



5. Therefore, you have to base the story around how he's obsolete (Logan) or perhaps how the old ways are better (Rocky Balboa, Creed) or to pass the torch (Generations, also Logan). But either way, he has to be paired with a character that represents the time period, someone who is emblematic of either the Space Age or James Bond/Flint-esque spies or hippies or the Vietnam War. Whether that be my granddaughter idea, or sure, something like Haley Atwell as Jane Bond, Indy either has to show this youngster how it's done or acknowledge that there's some merit in the new way.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

One of KOTC's larger problems, which got overlooked at the time because we were all so viscerally repelled by Mutt, was that crystal skulls and ancient aliens aren't from the mythology or pop culture of the 1950's. The Macguffin ruins the period piece atmosphere that the movie tries to cultivate.


Lucas dipped into von Däniken territory as a binding element, but ultimately aliens and lost civilizations were pretty recurring themes in 50s cinema.  And of course, RAIDERS is just as influenced by TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE and David Lean as it is anything from the 30s.



The problem with the period piece atmosphere to me is that the movie wanted to hit you over the head with it (we literally open with "Hound Dog") while simultaneously having no interest in exploring it.  So a big fuss is made of having Indy under FBI investigation, but it never pays off or goes anywhere.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

I don't know what kind of movies a modern Indiana Jones picture would pay homage to, if you kept the time progression and set it in the late 60's. Sean Connery's Bond pictures? Bedazzled? Quartermass? Hammer horror?


I've been saying Hammer for years and I still do.  Haunted castles work no matter what the era, and the concept was already considered for the earlier sequels.  They are much better off not trying to embrace the decade the story is set in this time around.  The key, I think, is to choose locations that are evocative and timeless.  If Indy spends must of the runtime in ancient ruins, mountain temples or other places that have looked exactly the same for hundreds of years, they're golden.  No hamfisted references to JFK and Vietnam, please.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 


Lucas dipped into von Däniken territory as a binding element, but ultimately aliens and lost civilizations were pretty recurring themes in 50s cinema.  And of course, RAIDERS is just as influenced by TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE and David Lean as it is anything from the 30s.



The problem with the period piece atmosphere to me is that the movie wanted to hit you over the head with it (we literally open with "Hound Dog") while simultaneously having no interest in exploring it.  So a big fuss is made of having Indy under FBI investigation, but it never pays off or goes anywhere.




I've been saying Hammer for years and I still do.  Haunted castles work no matter what the era, and the concept was already considered for the earlier sequels.  They are much better off not trying to embrace the decade the story is set in this time around.  The key, I think, is to choose locations that are evocative and timeless.  If Indy spends must of the runtime in ancient ruins, mountain temples or other places that have looked exactly the same for hundreds of years, they're golden.  No hamfisted references to JFK and Vietnam, please.


noooooooooooooooooooooooooo



See my above post.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

You can still portray Indy as a man out of his time.  Just don't turn the film into a tour of every cultural touchstone of the era.  Keep the story out of America, particularly.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Without knowing much about archaeology at all, I think it'd be almost impossible to have a story set in 1969+ that doesn't acknowledge advances in technology and whatever socio-political situation is happening in the area Indy is adventuring in.




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Okay, few things.



#1. This movie is getting made no matter what. Even if this particular iteration starring Ford doesn't get off the ground, Disney bought Lucasfilm to make more movies.



#2. Indy is a product of the pulp era, give or take the 1890s to 1939 (give or take, starts with Sherlock Holmes, ends with Action Comics #1). You can debate that, but let's just say an Indy during and post-WWII is a very different creature. One of the few things Crystal Skull got right is showing Indy being dwarfed by the power of the Atomic Age.



#3. Indy is not like James Bond, even if the former was inspired by the latter. Even if you recast him, the stories would still be set during the "pulp era." A sliding timeline doesn't work for the character, so you'll never have a 35-year-old Indy in the '80s or the present day.



#4. So taking 1-3 into account, you have a character that is aged past his prime and out of his element. The story has to acknowledge this. If you attempt to tell the same old story, Professor Henry Jones Jr. leaves the comfort of his teaching position to pursue a McGuffin in his alter ego of Indiana Jones, it just doesn't work with an almost 80-year-old Ford in a story that will organically be set in the late '60s or early '70s.



5. Therefore, you have to base the story around how he's obsolete (Logan) or perhaps how the old ways are better (Rocky Balboa, Creed) or to pass the torch (Generations, also Logan). But either way, he has to be paired with a character that represents the time period, someone who is emblematic of either the Space Age or James Bond/Flint-esque spies or hippies or the Vietnam War. Whether that be my granddaughter idea, or sure, something like Haley Atwell as Jane Bond, Indy either has to show this youngster how it's done or acknowledge that there's some merit in the new way.



All of these convince me that something centered around King Arthur is the way to go.




- Stale Elvis - 09-05-2017

AA Spielberg film set inside a haunted house or haunted castle has fun written all over it.

A 1980's Spielberg.


- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 


All of these convince me that something centered around King Arthur is the way to go.


But see, that feels like a retread of The Last Crusade. That movie may be about a Christian artifact, but it's something that's so tied up in Arthurian mythology that Indy doesn't find Joseph of Arimathea guarding the Grail. He finds a medieval knight. Excalibur and anything along those lines would just be the same ol' thang.




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

But see, that feels like a retread of The Last Crusade. That movie may be about a Christian artifact, but it's something that's so tied up in Arthurian mythology that Indy doesn't find Joseph of Arimathea guarding the Grail. He finds a medieval knight. Excalibur and anything along those lines would just be the same ol' thang.



Last Crusade, though, is so tied into the Crusades and Judeo-Christian history/mythology/locations that it doesn't feel particularly Arthurian to me.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

but but but



The entire tension at the heart of the Arthurian legend is the transition of Britain from a pagan culture to a Christian one. I admit everything having to do with the Lady of the Lake and Avalon has a distinctly matriarchal flavor that could be intriguing for a movie, but it still feels like the same ol' thang.



Give it up, Boone!




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

but but but



The entire tension at the heart of the Arthurian legend is the transition of Britain from a pagan culture to a Christian one. I admit everything having to do with the Lady of the Lake and Avalon has a distinctly matriarchal flavor that could be intriguing for a movie, but it still feels like the same ol' thang.



Give it up, Boone!



Ah, my good friend, you say this, but that's just one interpretation of the Arthurian legend, and the more mystical elements - Lady of the Lake, Avalon, Merlin, Morgana, etc. - have become intimately connected with a kind of neo-paganism that flowered in the 60s and 70s and continues today.



Furthermore, taken broadly, the tension at the heart of Arthur is pagan v. Christian, yes, but it's also chaos v. order (the despotic elements of Uter Pendragon vs. Arthur's more democratic round table), which was precisely what was happening on a global scale in that time period - the feeling that we were seconds away from tipping over into chaos, into an upending of the Western World, where new ideas of democracy and living were "possible." This was at the root of a lot of the 60s and 70s neopagans and cults; the idea that there was a "new way to live." And I wonder when else in history that tension between chaos knocking at the door and order holding fast the forces of darkness feels relevant? Could it be...today?



Pair that with Arthurian legend - something related to restoring the world before Arthur took power, using Excalibur itself - and maybe throw in something about how all knights must die, and I think you've got a real start.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

I honestly wouldn't expect many surprises or swerves with the fifth movie's storyline.  Spielberg has described the project as "straight down the pike for the fans," and Koepp has said "our idea is clean and simple."  All signs point to safe territory being traveled here.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Pretty good Boone, pretty good. Make the catalyst that kicks off the whole thing be a lost manuscript from T.H. White, and I'd go with it. And tying it with Manson-esque cult stuff and the Satanic Panic, and I could be convinced.



But I still like my Vietnam idea!




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

And tying it with Manson-esque cult stuff and the Satanic Panic, and I could be convinced.



But I still like my Vietnam idea!



I like your Vietnam idea too!



And yes, when I say "Indiana Jones vs. The Wicker Man," that's what I mean regarding cults and Satanic Panic (although that didn't really kick off in earnest until the late 70s/early 80s).




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

I was just using Satanic Panic as a catch-all phrase. There was definitely something in the water during that 1967 (when Rosemary's Baby the book was released) to 1976 (when the Omen was released) time period, with 1973's The Exorcist in-between, that was eventually used as fodder by Geraldo.



But yeah, the neo-paganism of the '70s could certainly go a long way, especially since you can lean into it as a university-based, youth-focused movement. Perhaps it starts in Indy's own school?



But it's not just cultures Indy encounters, it's artifacts. What is he trying to find?




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

I think what Indy is trying to find also depends on location. One of the reason Crystal Skull doesn't work entirely is that the "alien civilization" stuff doesn't feel connected to South America in the way that the other movies do with their respective artifacts.



I think if it's England, you go with Arthurian, or something intimately connected to the land itself. You could also do something around Welsh mythology: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llech_Ronw 



John Barleycorn runs you right up against straight-up Wicker Man stuff, but that could be fun, too: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barleycorn



Maybe tied into Puck/Robin Goodfellow: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puck_(mythology) 




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

This thread is going to make Michael so mad.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

I think what Indy is trying to find also depends on location. One of the reason Crystal Skull doesn't work entirely is that the "alien civilization" stuff doesn't feel connected to South America in the way that the other movies do with their respective artifacts.



There's also the fact that CRYSTAL SKULL did not do enough to sell us on South America, period.  The lack of location shooting really hurt the whole "globe-trotting" element that is supposed to be synonymous with these movies.




- virtanen - 09-05-2017

This is slowly morphing with the 'Your Terrible Ideas' thread, but anyhoo:



Set over a decade after Crystal Skull, the next film has a bitter and frail Jones rotting away in a nursing home. The family never visits, Mutt sends a shitty Christmas card every two years. One day Jones gets a new roommate who turns out to be a nazi war criminal with a deadly secret. Ol' Jones gets dragged into one final adventure, which involves peyote hallucinations, neo-nazis, Sasquatch and violent biker gangs.



Also if you use nazis as the bad guys, you get a nice meta-layer: much like this film, the neo-nazis are riding on nostalgia and try desperately to harken back the good old days.




- mondguy - 09-05-2017

On the Crystal Skulls, I don't think they worked primarily because they were so badly defined in their powers.  The movie had to halt so often to try to explain their danger, with diminishing returns.  It kills the momentum (what little there is), and there's never any tension or danger around them.  Think of the reveal of the Ark.  Regardless if you have Judeo-Christian beliefs or not, the Ark had PRESENCE.  It was not something to be trifled with.  The Skulls come across as something you'd find in a gift shop.




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Yeah, a good point of comparison to the Skulls is the stones in Temple of Doom. Unlike the Ark or the Grail, they're largely invented, they don't have the same cultural touchstone recognition as the other two - but the way they're spoken about, and the way they're treated, you understand their importance and PRESENCE. The crystal skulls don't do that.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

And TEMPLE made up for it by making its villain truly threatening.  When Mola Ram talks of using the stones to rule the world, you believe him, and anyway you have actual proof that his brainwashing works.  When the very similar scene happens in CRYSTAL SKULL, Spalko just comes off as a harmless loon, and we're never given any evidence that she has paranormal powers.




- Richard Dickson - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I was just using Satanic Panic as a catch-all phrase. There was definitely something in the water during that 1967 (when Rosemary's Baby the book was released) to 1976 (when the Omen was released) time period, with 1973's The Exorcist in-between, that was eventually used as fodder by Geraldo.



But yeah, the neo-paganism of the '70s could certainly go a long way, especially since you can lean into it as a university-based, youth-focused movement. Perhaps it starts in Indy's own school?



Just remake Young Sherlock Holmes as Old Indiana Jones!



I think something Arthurian could be fun, especially with the Grail connections.  Something with the Bermuda Triangle/Atlantis (because honestly, how do you not connect those two?) maybe, especially if you set it in the '60s: what seems like some harmless hippie "Age of Aquarius" commune is actually an Atlantean cult trying to find [MACGUFFIN] to raise their kingdom from the sea once again.



But whatever it is, it needs to be something of this world.  No more aliens.  Or extradimensional beings.  Or whatever.




- Richard Dickson - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Yeah, a good point of comparison to the Skulls is the stones in Temple of Doom. Unlike the Ark or the Grail, they're largely invented, they don't have the same cultural touchstone recognition as the other two - but the way they're spoken about, and the way they're treated, you understand their importance and PRESENCE. The crystal skulls don't do that.



Crystal skulls in general are a pretty big deal among cryptoscience enthusiasts, but yeah, they don't have the cultural cachet of the Ark or the Grail.




- commodorejohn - 09-05-2017

AYeah, pretty much. The Ark and the Grail worked because they both tapped into deeply-rooted cultural/religious tradition; Temple of Doom at least faked it sorta semi-convincingly and had other stuff propping it up. KotCS...did not. It's sad, I think, because there's really some great eerie mystery to be mined from UFOlogy and/or late 19th/early 20th century fringe theories (I mean, hell, Fate of Atlantis worked just fine drawing from that well,) but as it stands the movie is just a bare outline of the chintziest Erich von Daniken nonsense tacked onto a nothing plot and only once or twice does it even attempt to invest the Skull with an appropriate amount of gravitas.


- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

See also: Captain America: The First Avenger and the Cosmic Cube.