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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- Richard Dickson - 09-05-2017

And Temple of Doom also brought in the Thuggee, which does have some cultural weight to it.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

What I appreciated about Crystal Skull on a conceptual level is how it could have deconstructed the McGuffins of the first few movies. Meaning, if the original trilogy covers the major religions of the world, Judeo-Christianity and Hinduism, then Crystal Skull comes along and suggests that, nope, there aren't actual deities, just aliens interpreted as gods.



Except then it does nothing with that.



Which is why I'm coming around on the idea of a neo-pagan cult, whether it's druids or Satan or Atlantis worshipers. They would be based in ancient practices, but putting their own distinct modern flair on it.



Also, why would MichaelM hate this thread?




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post


Also, why would MichaelM hate this thread?



Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

Goddamn, I leave the house for two hours and come back and see SEVENTY new posts in this thread and think, "Did they release some kind of stealth trailer?" but nope just got splashed by more fanwank.



YOU GUYS.




- ryoken - 09-05-2017

Guys, guys...there is one perfect fit for INdiana Jones 5:






- arjen rudd - 09-05-2017

I think the whole deal with the Indy universe is simply that anything anyone ever believed is probably true. There's no cosmology, it's all cosmologies.



It's just going to be the Spear of Longinus or some damn thing. Personally, I think the fan community puts WAY too much importance on ticking off a checklist of 'what Indiana Jones movies are supposed to be', when all that really matters is if the movies are fun and exciting. Ancient aliens and Indy's son would have worked fine if the execution had been any good.




- boone daniels - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post


Which is why I'm coming around on the idea of a neo-pagan cult, whether it's druids or Satan or Atlantis worshipers. They would be based in ancient practices, but putting their own distinct modern flair on it.



I'm liking the Atlantis idea because it allows you to parallel the mystical island of Avalon with Atlantis itself, and it also gets you the globe trotting aspect, which, hello, I dislike Barry but he's not wrong about Hayley Atwell in everything, including 60s swimwear.




- Stale Elvis - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="Bartleby_Scriven" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1400#post_4356452"]What I appreciated about Crystal Skull on a conceptual level is how it could have deconstructed the McGuffins of the first few movies. Meaning, if the original trilogy covers the major religions of the world, Judeo-Christianity and Hinduism, then Crystal Skull comes along and suggests that, nope, there aren't actual deities, just aliens interpreted as gods.[/quote]

Yep. Because what we needed was a film that makes us look at Raiders of the Lost Ark and it's iconic Wrath of God ending in a whole new light.

I was brought up in a catholic household so the Ark and the Grail are things that were very much rooted in my belief system - that's why the Indy series worked up to KotCS for me - those two aretifacts were real so it was a plausible(ish) story. TOD less so, but I liked that the artefact was religious again. And I think Indy need a true religious artefact again - something that if the wrong powers got hold of that they'd have the power of God at their disposal again.

Maybe something set around the Russian church and Rasputin?

With the crystal skull though, Jesus that was just some awful new-age shit that doesn't belong with Indy. And exactly what was the skull's power again? It delivered migraines or something?


- bartleby_scriven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


Yep. Because what we needed was a film that makes us look at Raiders of the Lost Ark and it's iconic Wrath of God ending in a whole new light.

I was brought up in a catholic household so the Ark and the Grail are things that were very much rooted in my belief system - that's why the Indy series worked up to KotCS for me - those two aretifacts were real so it was a plausible(ish) story. TOD less so, but I liked that the artefact was religious again. And I think Indy need a true religious artefact again - something that if the wrong powers got hold of that they'd have the power of God at their disposal again.

Maybe something set around the Russian church and Rasputin?

With the crystal skull though, Jesus that was just some awful new-age shit that doesn't belong with Indy. And exactly what was the skull's power again? It delivered migraines or something?

It's not so much that I wanted Crystal Skull to discredit the first three movies. It's more like what Arjen said above, that all cosmologies, anything that's ever been believed, is true.



So the existence of Shiva and Kali in Temple of Doom don't negate Yahweh. And the existence of interdimensional beings could have been a commentary on the others, a new wrinkle, without wiping them out. But there wasn't even an attempt at any nuance.




- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

I almost wonder if George Lucas's insistence on calling the item searched for in these movies the "McGuffin" ala Hitchcock reflected how the crystal skulls were utilized, and how they were not. A McGuffin is just some object or device or something that our heroes care deeply about but we don't really care so long as it propels the story. Well, in the '80s trilogy the Ark of the Covenant, the Sankara Stones and the Holy Grail were not McGuffins. Their sense of import was continually underlined by the respective screenplays and the films dutifully established how critical it was for Indy to prevail over dark forces in acquiring them.



Anyway, I agree with FatherDude that Indy 5 is going to be a largely safe effort, probably heavy on action and with a strong whatsit (using that rather than "McGuffin," heh). Probably something that ties back into Judaic or Christian history.



I'd also like a new setting in general for Indy. The desert is almost the de facto Indiana Jones setting, with the jungle not far behind. That is partly what makes spooky English countrysides seem so potentially inviting. And yes a greater emphasis on the globetrotting nature of our protagonist would be good. Spielberg supposedly didn't want to leave the U.S. for Crystal Skull. I hope he's feeling more adventurous this time out.




- Stale Elvis - 09-05-2017

AThe Scottish highlands offer some amazing scenery plus there's the chance for Indy to dig through some Celtic or Pictish folklore.


- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

The Scottish highlands offer some amazing scenery plus there's the chance for Indy to dig through some Celtic or Pictish folklore.

Yes, this sounds appealing and fresh for Indy.



Timothy Dalton in vaguely Penny Dreadful mode would make such a grand villain. Or go with Brosnan.



I keep seeing Mark Rylance playing an academic friend to Jones, maybe the latest in the series's Marcus Brody-Dean Charles Stanforth iterations.




- virtanen - 09-05-2017

Indy stuff I only just realised: Harrison Ford is old enough to portray age-appropriate Henry "Indiana" Jones, Jr during the making of Raiders of the Lost Ark.




- hammerhead - 09-05-2017

Indiana Jones and the Harlem Globetrotters on Gilligan's Island Which is Actually Atlantis




- scottieferguson - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 

I'd much rather have Shia return than have Koepp writing the script.



Or Kaminski shooting it.  He works for Ready Player One, but not Indy.




- atomtastic - 09-05-2017

Janusz needs to take a break for a while.




- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

AI wouldn't mind bringing back Short Round. Maybe learn his real name.

If they must have a sidekick...don't make him comedic or substantially younger. Make him dangerous like Ardeth Bey in The Mummy movies (the first two Sommers). If they must bring back Mutt....make HIM harder edged and recast with someone like Boyd Holbrook who could believably pick up the mantle..


- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

AAnd I have this dream of either trying to snag Jack Nicholson or Gene Hackman as either the villain (sort of like Donovan) or cult leader if they wanna go that desert trippy, "Manson family" type route. Or as Abner Ravenwood (we don't even need Marion for this to happen). God seeing Hackman on screen one more time would thrill my heart. Even if the movie weren't too great. I know those two will never happen but one can dream..


- sincanaguaca - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
 

No more family drama. It's terrible. Indy's granddaughter, you fools? Unless this is terrible comedy, that's indefensible.



I pitch Indiana Jones and the Doorways of Perception. While searching for hidden Navajo gold in the Arizona desert, Dr. Jones must contend with Hell's Angels, mysterious skinwalkers, and maybe like some kind of Manson-ish cult or something, all the while in thrall to ever-escalating peyote trip. The climax involves Indy's third eye opening to the point where he is able to control light and air, ultimately rising above consciousness, seeing life from all perspectives simultaneously and entering the realm of the infinite. Mutt is never mentioned.



This would be cool as hell! (Well, right up to the skinwalkers part)



Are you people familiar at all with the Skinwalker legends? It is SCARY.AS.FUCK. Read some stuff about the Skinwalker ranch in Utah.



It would work like a charm with Indy Jones. It would be in the TOD vein, I believe.



It's easy to get him there, an old buddy of his from WW2 is a Navajo code talker. He gets in touch with Indy because strange shit is going down in the southwest. Some person/people/organization/Donald Trump are looking for some cursed treasure and they've disturbed it and set loose the skinwalkers. Everything will go to shit if Indy can't get down there and save the Macgufifn!



Indy fights bad dudes and super natural baddies along the way.



"Didn't you ever go to Sunday School?"




- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

AMy ONLY gripe with that sort of plot is that something about an Indy adventure in which a significant portion takes place in the continental US doesn't sit too well with me. I want him globe trotting. We never see him in snowy areas too often. And what about the Bermuda Triangle?

Also...whoever suggested he should be searching for DB Cooper is someone that I wanna buy a beer..


- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

I love Gene Hackman and Jack Nicholson but beyond the point that they'd almost surely not do it (especially Hackman who's rather adamant about staying retired, while Nicholson seems to want to make at least one more film), I really want someone who's not exactly very well-known for devouring whole rain forests' worth of scenery by being a baddie.



That's why some months ago I kept thinking about who I'd want to see play the villain in the next Indy adventure and Brosnan and Dalton came to mind, as I see it did for others here.



An outside possibility would be maybe Morgan Freeman. He'd probably enjoy unplugging for a summer and playing a foil to Indy. Maybe make him a direct "nefarious" archaeologist rival of Jones's, the way Belloq is in Raiders. Not the overall big baddie but someone who's out to knock Jones aside in the ongoing quest. It feels like it's been ages since Freeman really flexed or stretched onscreen.




- ambler - 09-05-2017

AThe problem with Skull was the script. The direction couldnt have been better. Spielberg is as good as he's ever been. Just cant seem to nail the script. Koepp's involvement unfortunately assures disaster.


- user_32 - 09-05-2017

Yeah, I don't get why Spielberg loves to go back to Koepp?



I mean, Jurassic Park is a classic but didn't he basically just re-write Michael Crichton's draft? When given solo writing he gives us The Lost World and Kingdom of the Crystal Skull? I mean, how do you fuck up Jurassic Park 2! The best parts of that movie were all Spielberg action (ie. two T-Rexes trailers and the Raptors in the long grass).



Although, War of the Worlds is pretty great. And his early 90s genre stuff was fun (Carlito's Way, The Shadow, Mission: Impossible)




- ambler - 09-05-2017

AWOW and JP had some problems, mostly character based. Keopp just doesnt have alot of depth in his writing. But the beard loves him. Probably because he gives people what they want even if their ideas suck.


- mr. stockslivevan - 09-05-2017

AWasn't CRYSTAL SKULL ultimately a composite of a bunch of different drafts that he was assigned to put together at a short time by Lucas?


- chaz - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoirHeaven View Post
 

I love Gene Hackman and Jack Nicholson but beyond the point that they'd almost surely not do it (especially Hackman who's rather adamant about staying retired, while Nicholson seems to want to make at least one more film), I really want someone who's not exactly very well-known for devouring whole rain forests' worth of scenery by being a baddie.



That's why some months ago I kept thinking about who I'd want to see play the villain in the next Indy adventure and Brosnan and Dalton came to mind, as I see it did for others here.



An outside possibility would be maybe Morgan Freeman. He'd probably enjoy unplugging for a summer and playing a foil to Indy. Maybe make him a direct "nefarious" archaeologist rival of Jones's, the way Belloq is in Raiders. Not the overall big baddie but someone who's out to knock Jones aside in the ongoing quest. It feels like it's been ages since Freeman really flexed or stretched onscreen.


If you want a scenery chewing villain, then Javier Bardem is the way too go.




- ambler - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="Mr. Stockslivevan" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1440#post_4357065"]Wasn't CRYSTAL SKULL ultimately a composite of a bunch of different drafts that he was assigned to put together at a short time by Lucas?[/quote]

Wouldnt surprise me. The script feels like a disjointed Frankenstein monster.


- user_32 - 09-05-2017

I think Lucas wanted aliens.


Spielberg wanted a son.


And Ford wanted to show the passage of time.



Mix that in a blender and voila!



Koepp I guess also had to satisfy the egos of both Spielberg and Tom Cruise for WOW so he's good at pleasing, I guess.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

Koepp was given a full year, as were the previous screenwriters.  Yes, he still had to contend with arranging a 13 year driftnet of ideas into a cohesive whole, but certainly Darabont had to face a similar challenge, and his efforts come off much better.



I am bummed that Koepp has been tapped.  But I'm choosing to believe that he will do better work as a result of developing this with Spielberg alone, without a development hell's worth of baggage.  Mostly because I have no other choice.




- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

If you want a scenery chewing villain, then Javier Bardem is the way too go.


Yeah, I'd want someone who's not known in large part for playing a bunch of villains. Javier Bardem seems to be racking up the baddie characters. I do hope he and Spielberg make that Montezuma/Cortes film together soon, though, since Bardem's not getting any younger.



As for the David Koepp discussion, he's generally a solid hand. His War of the Worlds screenplay is a personal favorite of mine. I just watched Secret Window again for the first time in thirteen years. Flawed but entertaining offbeat horror Stephen King adaptation.



Koepp's not the most exciting name out there, though. I would have gone back to Frank Darabont but oh well.




- fatherdude - 09-05-2017

AI don't think Darabont would have agreed to come back.


- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post

I don't think Darabont would have agreed to come back.

Yeah, I almost said, he probably wouldn't. Which is a shame, but, can't really blame him for feeling that way at all.




- Belloq87 - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

The problem with Skull was the script. The direction couldnt have been better.

I do agree that the bulk of CRYSTAL SKULL's problems stem from the screenplay, but I have to respectfully disagree with your second statement.  Apart from the campus motorcycle chase, CRYSTAL SKULL is pretty inert, viscerally.  Nothing pops, and there's generally very little energy to the filmmaking.  It doesn't ever feel like Spielberg's fully engaged behind the scenes.  He's coasting.



Don't even get me started on the jungle chase, which is one of the most horrendously staged and executed sequences of Spielberg's career, and I don't think we can blame the screenplay for that.




- Neil Spurn - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoirHeaven View Post
 

I just watched Secret Window again for the first time in thirteen years. Flawed but entertaining offbeat horror Stephen King adaptation.




"You stole mah storaaaay!"




- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by neil spurn View Post
 



"You stole mah storaaaay!"


Hahaha yes indeed. I think maybe that film exists just to prove that John Turturro can make anything work.




- fraid uh noman - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="NoirHeaven" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1440#post_4357033"]I love Gene Hackman and Jack Nicholson but beyond the point that they'd almost surely not do it (especially Hackman who's rather adamant about staying retired, while Nicholson seems to want to make at least one more film), I really want someone who's not exactly very well-known for devouring whole rain forests' worth of scenery by being a baddie. 
[/quote]
I know. I have no delusions about the chances of either Nicholson or Hackman taking part. None. I'd just LOOOOVE to see Hackman grace the screen one more time. Welcome to Mooseport isn't a proper send off for an actor of his caliber and legacy.

This Indy needs a great villain (who has plenty of red shirts at his disposal) and a younger companion for the journey. Not a relative. Not a sidekick. Not comic relief. A friend and colleague. Someone who can hold their own with Indy and has a nice chemistry with Ford. And also somebody to continually express disbelief at how Indy can still keep up and is no less two-fisted at his age..