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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- Neil Spurn - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post


...and a younger companion for the journey. Not a relative. Not a sidekick. Not comic relief. A friend and colleague. Someone who can hold their own with Indy and has a nice chemistry with Ford. And also somebody to continually express disbelief at how Indy can still keep up and is no less two-fisted at his age..


Cast Tom Holland, have Indy link with the upcoming Uncharted adaptation. The latter is so unabashedly influenced by the former anyway.




- noirheaven - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post


I know. I have no delusions about the chances of either Nicholson or Hackman taking part. None. I'd just LOOOOVE to see Hackman grace the screen one more time. Welcome to Mooseport isn't a proper send off for an actor of his caliber and legacy.

This Indy needs a great villain (who has plenty of red shirts at his disposal) and a younger companion for the journey. Not a relative. Not a sidekick. Not comic relief. A friend and colleague. Someone who can hold their own with Indy and has a nice chemistry with Ford. And also somebody to continually express disbelief at how Indy can still keep up and is no less two-fisted at his age..

I totally agree with you. I wish Hackman had agreed to something at least halfway decent to end his career on, too. Sad




- Neil Spurn - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoirHeaven View Post
 

I totally agree with you. I wish Hackman had agreed to something at least halfway decent to end his career on, too. Sad



Holy crap! His last movie was Welcome to Mooseport... in 2004?!?!  Eh, at least his last good movie was Tennebaums, just a few projects earlier.




Edit for typos




- ambler - 09-05-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 

I do agree that the bulk of CRYSTAL SKULL's problems stem from the screenplay, but I have to respectfully disagree with your second statement.  Apart from the campus motorcycle chase, CRYSTAL SKULL is pretty inert, viscerally.  Nothing pops, and there's generally very little energy to the filmmaking.  It doesn't ever feel like Spielberg's fully engaged behind the scenes.  He's coasting.



Don't even get me started on the jungle chase, which is one of the most horrendously staged and executed sequences of Spielberg's career, and I don't think we can blame the screenplay for that.



The opening is some of the best directing he's ever done.




- carnotaur3 - 09-05-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Yeah, I don't get why Spielberg loves to go back to Koepp?



I mean, Jurassic Park is a classic but didn't he basically just re-write Michael Crichton's draft?



His script for Jurassic Park really is that good though. Whether he had more help or the spine of the damn thing was rock solid, he hit a home run there. The previous drafts are really nothing compared to the one Koepp turned in. Why he hasn't been that good since, nobody can say. But the elements were just right. Also, TLW may be a fuck up but then that thing veered so far off the novel that it's hard to say whose fault that was.



I still very much like War of the Worlds.



Crystal Skull was probably a nightmare to put together trying to please the Beard and the Neck Pouch.




- user_32 - 09-05-2017

A[quote name="FatherDude" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1440#post_4357092"]I don't think Darabont would have agreed to come back.[/quote]

His problems were with Lucas not Spielberg. I assume if Spielberg asked, he'd do it since he enjoyed working with Spielberg. But Spielberg probably wouldn't ask at this point. Especially if that would piss off Lucas even if he isn't involved anymore. Darabont wasn't shy about his thoughts on him to the press.


- ravi - 09-06-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Yeah, a good point of comparison to the Skulls is the stones in Temple of Doom. Unlike the Ark or the Grail, they're largely invented


They're not entirely invented as they are based off sacred formations called Shiva Lingas found in shrines throughout the remote regions of India and Nepal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam



Another article that goes in depth: http://www.speakingtree.in/blog/why-shiva-has-lingam-in-that-shape




- hammerhead - 09-06-2017

I don't think it's fair to blame any one screenwriter for the failings of a tentpole movie. Darabont's Indy 4 draft has more internal logic (and a LOT more fanservice) than the final film, but the story beats and setpieces are already on rails. Give or take a handful of characters, it's the same as the movie that got made.




- Belloq87 - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 


The opening is some of the best directing he's ever done.


That's quite an assertion!  While I don't think it's in any way an overtly bad sequence (like I think the jungle chase is a truly bad sequence, say), I'd argue CRYSTAL SKULL's opening is easily the most limp and unexciting of the four.




- hammerhead - 09-06-2017

The motorcycle college chase is easily the most inventive action sequence in the film.




- Dent6084 - 09-06-2017

The stunt where Indy gets pulled into the car, punches the guy out, then goes through the other window back onto the bike is legit great.




- Belloq87 - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dent6084 View Post
 

The stunt where Indy gets pulled into the car, punches the guy out, then goes through the other window back onto the bike is legit great.


That gag is literally my favorite moment of the entire movie.




- noirheaven - 09-06-2017

Yeah, seeing Crystal Skull again for the first time in nearly a decade, I had forgotten just how intricate and brilliant the motorcycle chase sequence is. One of Spielberg's best. Which is saying a lot.



Unfortunately about ten minutes later the film grinds to a halt, stops and starts, and never really regains its momentum.



The main problem with the jungle chase setpiece is that, while Spielberg's directing is adequate, it all feels toothless. Too many irons in the fire: Adventures of Mutt; the Madness of Mac; the Swordplay of Spalko. The blatantly CGI mountainside, monkeys, etc. just defuse what should feel like a terribly dangerous thrill ride. It's almost the direct opposite of the single-minded focus of Temple of Doom's mine car chase, for example. All frills, no heat, sagging humor and questionable decisions. Even the one monkey being ruthlessly thrown by Spalko ends up being unharmed, as Belloq87 and others noted recently. That's where you know a movie of this kind of playing it just way too safe, even by modest standards.



If they wanted to go all-comic with it like the plane chase in Last Crusade--which never fails to crack me up due in large part to Sean Connery's effortless timing--that would have worked, but it's neither hot nor cold, just lukewarm porridge.




- Richard Dickson - 09-06-2017

AWhat frustrates me about Crystal Skull is that better choices are sitting right there. How do you not have Indy using the Russian shells to find the crate as a set-up for them being out of ammo? How do you not have Oxley not just be Abner Ravenwood? How do you design that jungle mauling piece of machinery and not treat it like the tank in Last Crusade? Most of the film is a case of, "Eh, good enough."


- mondguy - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 

I do agree that the bulk of CRYSTAL SKULL's problems stem from the screenplay, but I have to respectfully disagree with your second statement.  Apart from the campus motorcycle chase, CRYSTAL SKULL is pretty inert, viscerally.  Nothing pops, and there's generally very little energy to the filmmaking.  It doesn't ever feel like Spielberg's fully engaged behind the scenes.  He's coasting.



Don't even get me started on the jungle chase, which is one of the most horrendously staged and executed sequences of Spielberg's career, and I don't think we can blame the screenplay for that.



The bit where Mac falls and Indy tries to...pick him up with the whip I guess? is one of Spielberg's worst moments.  I still couldn't tell you what's going on in the scene.  It's as if they dropped rehearsal footage into the finished movie.




- fatherdude - 09-06-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post

I don't think Darabont would have agreed to come back.

His problems were with Lucas not Spielberg. I assume if Spielberg asked, he'd do it since he enjoyed working with Spielberg.


I think he's permanently gun-shy of going anywhere near the franchise again.  From the sounds of things, he worked exclusively with Spielberg for a year while Lucas was off making the prequels.  Lucas then comes along after Spielberg's approval and says, "Nah," and the thing is kaput.  What assurances can you really give him that it wouldn't happen again?  At the time, Darabont basically said the experience crystalized the dangers of writing for others and that he only wanted to work on his own projects for then on.



I suppose it doesn't matter at any rate.  There is really no time to bring in another writer.  This thing has to be in front of cameras by this time next year if it's to happen at all, I should think.  Koepp has had enough time to complete a really polished script.  We just have to hope that he and Spielberg nailed it despite what their past collaborations tell us.



Quote:


Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dent6084 View Post
 

The stunt where Indy gets pulled into the car, punches the guy out, then goes through the other window back onto the bike is legit great.


That gag is literally my favorite moment of the entire movie.



My favorite gag is probably when Indy manipulates the fight between the jocks and the greasers at the 50s diner.  It's one of the movie's rare moments that feels like it could have come from the trilogy, blurred though it is through that ridiculous Barbara Walters Interview Gloss Filterâ„¢ that Kaminski blessed the movie with.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

The problem with Skull was the script. The direction couldnt have been better. Spielberg is as good as he's ever been. Just cant seem to nail the script. Koepp's involvement unfortunately assures disaster.


The script was the main problem, yes.  This is especially clear if you read Koepp's shooting draft (which is available), because it really is the movie, right down to the bizarre pacing, weird lethargy and marked lack of crackling dialog.



But if this same script had been directed by the Spielberg of the 80s, it wouldn't have nearly as many missed opportunities in it.  In RAIDERS, Spielberg pretty much invented the entire fistfight around the plane propeller on the set just out of sheer exuberance for landing that prop.  In CRYSTAL SKULL, which had no budget concerns, he could get things like forest mulchers and a hundred extras meticulously painted up as a fictional Amazonian tribe without a second thought, and he does nothing with them.  They didn't even write an escape sequence for how the characters get away from the natives!  The threat just ends!  It's nothing but a trailer moment with no payoff!



A more engaged Spielberg quite simply would never have allowed that to happen.  Everything about his work in this film screams "disinterested competence."




- bartleby_scriven - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post

What frustrates me about Crystal Skull is that better choices are sitting right there. How do you not have Indy using the Russian shells to find the crate as a set-up for them being out of ammo? How do you not have Oxley not just be Abner Ravenwood? How do you design that jungle mauling piece of machinery and not treat it like the tank in Last Crusade? Most of the film is a case of, "Eh, good enough."

Considering Abner is supposed to be dead, it would complicate things too much to have Oxley be switched out with him. You'd have to explain where he's been all these years, etc.



No, you either have Marion be the one driven insane by the skull, or Indy himself when he gets exposed to it. Streamline the cast, give characters something to do.




- fraid uh noman - 09-06-2017

ABefore the movie came out I just KNEW that Hurt was Abner and they thought he was dead because he'd vanished due to alien abduction. His craziness was even appropriate!


- bartleby_scriven - 09-06-2017

But again, and I hate to do retroactive fan fic, you might as well get rid of the Ox/Abner character altogether. The whole point of his character is he's a surrogate father to Mutt. If he was abducted by aliens he wouldn't have been around for Mutt, so rather than switching out names and a few bits of dialogue, you're changing the entire relationship dynamics.



Ugh, fuck that script.




- mondguy - 09-06-2017

AI remember the main character trait of Oxley was supposed to be that be was so boring. It's explained to us several times.

And when he shows up? It's such a cliched 'wacky' performance that I actually preferred him when he reverted to his normal self.


- bartleby_scriven - 09-06-2017

It's just baffling on so many levels how overcomplicated Mutt's backstory is and how easily it could be streamlined.



He refers to his mother as Mary - why? Just so we get a surprise moment when Indy sees her for the first time.



He believes his father died in the war, which means that Marion, while pregnant with Indy's baby, fell in love with and married a friend of Indy's and Indy never heard about this?



In the absence of his father, he has a surrogate father figure in Ox, who is also an old friend of Indy but apparently never had a romance with Marion.



Just...fucking goddamn, STOP WITH THE REDUNDANCY. Either have Marion be a single mother that lied about Mutt's father dying in the war, or have Ox be Marion's husband, or have there be no mystery at all and have Mutt show up on Indy's door saying, hey, I'm your son that my mom told me to not contact.



Fucking fuck FUCK




- fatherdude - 09-06-2017

Making Oxley into Ravenwood would not have helped anything.  Trying to shorthand some kind of audience investment into a character by saying "Hey, you've heard of this person, so now there's no development required when he appears!" is the exact kind of weak sauce characterization the movie is already trying to traffic in its final form.  They even have a line where Indy pleads, "Harold, they're gonna kill Abner's little girl," as if we're supposed to be emotionally engaged in something just because we hear a name we recognize.  It's garbage.



I think Bartleby has the right of it in that we just needed less characters so that the remaining ones actually had something to do.  It should have been Marion or Indy himself who gets possessed by the skull so that the third act has some actual gravity.  And why is it that the skull drives Hurt bananas but Indy conveniently gets affected just enough to hear the skull's commands but not actually have ill effects?  It's a copout and a missed opportunity rolled into one.  If Indy's sanity is at stake, you have a compelling reason to push onward into the lost city, just as Connery getting shot gives the Three Trials urgency in LAST CRUSADE.  Instead we just have Indy saying "It told me toooo!" and everyone just goes along with it.  There isn't any reason to believe that restoring the skull will save Oxley, though it does anyway.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-06-2017

FatherDude gets it.




- fraid uh noman - 09-06-2017

AFranka Potente should be the new Thugee leader in the next one. Call her Ram Mola Ram.


I'm so sorry..


- mondguy - 09-06-2017

AI'd watch Franka Potente in pretty much anything, so you have at least one co-signer for that idea.


- fatherdude - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
 

Darabont's Indy 4 draft has more internal logic (and a LOT more fanservice) than the final film, but the story beats and setpieces are already on rails. Give or take a handful of characters, it's the same as the movie that got made.



I strongly disagree.  There may be plenty of high-level similarities, but the differences between Darabont's version and Koepp's are material, in terms of set pieces, characters, and story beats.




- ambler - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 


I strongly disagree.  There may be plenty of high-level similarities, but the differences between Darabont's version and Koepp's are material, in terms of set pieces, characters, and story beats.



It's been a long time since I read Darabont's script, but I remember it being better and more clever than the movie we got.




- ambler - 09-06-2017

And Darabont is a metric shit ton better of a writer than Koepp.




- atomtastic - 09-06-2017

I agree! And I don't really like Darabont's writing!




- Belloq87 - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondguy View Post
 


The bit where Mac falls and Indy tries to...pick him up with the whip I guess? is one of Spielberg's worst moments.  I still couldn't tell you what's going on in the scene.  It's as if they dropped rehearsal footage into the finished movie.


Easily the most WTF moment in the entire film.  "Jonesy, I'm gonna be alright."



What the hell is that?  I have no idea what they were going for with that.  Truly a baffling conclusion to a really undercooked/ill-conceived character in Mac.




- carnotaur3 - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 

Easily the most WTF moment in the entire film.  "Jonesy, I'm gonna be alright."



What the hell is that?  I have no idea what they were going for with that.  Truly a baffling conclusion to a really undercooked/ill-conceived character in Mac.



It's a gas!



I couldn't actually believe it when I saw it happen in the theater, and at that point I was sick with a 102 degree temperature and not knowing whether I was even actively engaged in the film or just couldn't get over my illness.




- Belloq87 - 09-06-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
 


It's a gas!



I couldn't actually believe it when I saw it happen in the theater, and at that point I was sick with a 102 degree temperature and not knowing whether I was even actively engaged in the film or just couldn't get over my illness.


It's almost a non-sequitur of a beat.  So strange.  I guess Mac really wanted to meet those "interdimensional beings."




- carnotaur3 - 09-06-2017

Consider how confused Indy must have felt. lol




- mola ram - 09-07-2017

Personally I think Crystal Skull is an okay movie. It's the weakest of the 4 films, but it's still enjoyable enough.



It just gets a lot of meme hate online so the movie is seen as a joke (which I think is totally unfair). Critics actually gave it positive reviews overall (certified fresh on RT at 77) and it was a big hit at the box office. So clearly quite a few people enjoyed it at the time.



It's ten times better than Spielberg's actual shitty sequel, The Lost World: Jurassic Park. Now that movie is legit bad. For a movie about dinosours it's so fucking dull and an utter slog to sit through.



TLW is Spielberg's worst movie, and the most phoned in thing he's ever done. Even 1941 feels like Spielberg is at least trying, and it has some weird zany charm to it. Hook has a great John Williams score which I listen to a lot.



TLW has no redeemable qualities except for the "trailer hanging over the cliff" scene.




- arjen rudd - 09-07-2017

The biggest 'material' difference between Darabont and Koepp was that Marion was Indy's foil, not Mutt. She's quite easily the second lead, and she feels very much like the Marion of old.



They also had a much better version of the double agent character. He was actually Russian!



But in truth, Mac's like my favorite shitty part of KOTCS now. He's such a shitty, broken character, with such a bad performance by Ray Winstone. All stupid nonsense, all the time with Mac. That's probably in part because the WHM podcast on the film spends like an hour mocking him pretty solidly. That's a solid recommend, by the way.