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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- draco senior - 09-07-2017

Technically, Mac's a triple agent. It's just layer upon layer of absurdity with that character, and all for no real purpose.




- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

What's mindblowing about the awfulness of Mac is that it seems like he'd be such a slam dunk on paper.  Ray Winstone as Indy's morally dubious WWII sidekick?  You really have to be working overtime to foul that up.



I don't blame Winstone at all.  He tried to find the grace notes.  There's a wonderfully understated moment when his character is trying to bargain with Jones while drunk and brags "That's the third time I saved your life" while holding up four fingers.  But the character literally has no motivation after the prologue he should have perished in.  Absolutely nothing about him tracks.




- carnotaur3 - 09-07-2017

ABut he HAD motivation: money... a whole heap of money.

Nothing like money to make you backstab your best friend.

You never get the sense that these two were friends at all anyway.


- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

Then why leave the tracers for the Russians?  If his entire motivation was the gold, then he had no use for the Soviets once he was with the hero entourage and on his way to the lost city.  So does he have ideological sympathies with the Reds or some deep loyalty to Spalko?  And wait, didn't she try to drive him off the cliff along with the good guys?



Nothing about Mac adds up.  The triple agent thing was just a hollow, final "twist" that was as unnecessary as it was meaningless.




- jacknifejohnny - 09-07-2017

AI just realized that I don't remember 80% of KOTCS.


- bartleby_scriven - 09-07-2017

Ugh, guys, please stop talking about Crystal Skull.




- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

Same writer, same director, same cinematographer.  It is unfortunately our most reliable glimpse of what Indy 5 will be like until production starts.




- MichaelM - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I just realized that I don't remember 80% of KOTCS.


I'm working hard on not remembering 100% of it.




- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post


It's ten times better than Spielberg's actual shitty sequel, The Lost World: Jurassic Park. Now that movie is legit bad. For a movie about dinosours it's so fucking dull and an utter slog to sit through.



I'm no fan of THE LOST WORLD, but it's got CRYSTAL SKULL whipped in terms of set pieces, soundtrack, and the fact that it doesn't look like hot garbage, presumably because Kaminski didn't yet have all kinds of DI tools to abuse.  It shares a key shortcoming in the form of Koepp, but at least the movie has a pulse and manages to scrounge up a little majesty.  CRYSTAL SKULL is all but devoid of atmosphere.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 

Same writer, same director, same cinematographer.  It is unfortunately our most reliable glimpse of what Indy 5 will be like until production starts.





- MichaelM - 09-07-2017

Pacino is five kinds of awesome in that scene and movie.




- arjen rudd - 09-07-2017

'E was nevah a trip-oh agent, Jonesy, he was juz lyin about being a dub-oh one!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 

Easily the most WTF moment in the entire film.  "Jonesy, I'm gonna be alright."



What the hell is that?  I have no idea what they were going for with that.  Truly a baffling conclusion to a really undercooked/ill-conceived character in Mac.


I think there's some kind of internal thinking that they've created a character the audience gives a shit about. And that him being roguishly nonchalant in the face of death is maybe kind of charming, for this character we've got such a strong, mixed relationship with. It's one of those aforementioned grace notes. God, what a pants-shitting of a sequence that is.



How a director as plainly genius at storytelling as Spielberg thought for a second anyone would give a shit about Mac is beyond me. Ray Winstone is practically playing him as Monterey Jack from Rescue Rangers. But that's like the only thing they could possibly be trying for there.




- carnotaur3 - 09-07-2017

A[quote name="FatherDude" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1500#post_4358086"]
I'm no fan of THE LOST WORLD, but it's got CRYSTAL SKULL whipped in terms of set pieces, soundtrack, and the fact that it doesn't look like hot garbage, presumably because Kaminski didn't yet have all kinds of DI tools to abuse.  It shares a key shortcoming in the form of Koepp, but at least the movie has a pulse and manages to scrounge up a little majesty.  CRYSTAL SKULL is all but devoid of atmosphere.
[/quote]

You're right, TLW feels like Kaminski restrained. It matches Jurassic Park way more than KOTCS does to the rest of the Indy series.


- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
 

I think there's some kind of internal thinking that they've created a character the audience gives a shit about. And that him being roguishly nonchalant in the face of death is maybe kind of charming, for this character we've got such a strong, mixed relationship with. It's one of those aforementioned grace notes. God, what a pants-shitting of a sequence that is.



How a director as plainly genius at storytelling as Spielberg thought for a second anyone would give a shit about Mac is beyond me. Ray Winstone is practically playing him as Monterey Jack from Rescue Rangers. But that's like the only thing they could possibly be trying for there.



According to people who have read the novelization, Mac is being sucked into the void because the gold in his pockets is subject to the magnetic effect of the vortex (a plot point set up earlier), and he elects to let go of the whip in order to prevent Indy from dying with him.



A nice idea, but Spielberg's bizarre staging utterly fails to communicate it.  The only way it would have kind of worked is if Mac had been airborne when he delivered his line instead of lying flat on his stomach and plainly capable of getting up.  Also, the self-sacrifice interpretation gets a muddied a bit by the fact that Ray Winstone is all stoic when he delivers the line yet screams in horror as he's sucked away.



What a mess.




- carnotaur3 - 09-07-2017

AThat makes sense, but what horrible execution. It's like he's lying there like a dead fish.


- bartleby_scriven - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

Pacino is five kinds of awesome in that scene and movie.


There's a particular stretch, from Scent of a Woman (1992) and culminating with The Devil's Advocate (1997), but really it started with Dick Tracy (1990), where Pacino's acting style suddenly shifted considerably. It's great in a big, broad, loud way, just bordering on caricature but still with nuance and complexity.



It's like the "Every time I think I'm out..." scene from Godfather Part III became his defining characteristic. This HOO-AHHH stage dips back into quieter, more thoughtful performances on occasion, such as '99's The Insider, '03's Angels in America, and a surprisingly touching performance in '10's You Don't Know Jack.



But for the most part after The Devil's Advocate he started relying on yelling and brashness, without any sense of escalation.



Anyways, Pacino for the villain in Indy 5.




- boone daniels - 09-07-2017

Really curious about Pacino's Joe Paterno, particularly since it has the potential to hit that Roy Cohn sweet spot between PACINO YELLING and Pacino Acting.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-07-2017

His HBO work has been the best of the last 15 years.




- boone daniels - 09-07-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

His HBO work has been the best of the last 15 years.



I realized this weekend that I've missed all of those Levinson true crime movies. I need to get caught up.




- MichaelM - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Really curious about Pacino's Joe Paterno, particularly since it has the potential to hit that Roy Cohn sweet spot between PACINO YELLING and Pacino Acting.



Schmacting!




- malmordo - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 


I'm no fan of THE LOST WORLD, but it's got CRYSTAL SKULL whipped in terms of set pieces, soundtrack, and the fact that it doesn't look like hot garbage, presumably because Kaminski didn't yet have all kinds of DI tools to abuse.  It shares a key shortcoming in the form of Koepp, but at least the movie has a pulse and manages to scrounge up a little majesty.


Didn't Spielberg walk away from THE LOST WORLD to work on AMISTAD, leaving Koepp to direct much of the film? That's what I've heard.




- Richard Dickson - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post
 

TLW is Spielberg's worst movie, and the most phoned in thing he's ever done. Even 1941 feels like Spielberg is at least trying, and it has some weird zany charm to it. Hook has a great John Williams score which I listen to a lot.



TLW has no redeemable qualities except for the "trailer hanging over the cliff" scene.



See, I'd put Hook dead last.  It's Spielberg simultaneously trying too hard and not giving a crap.  It's the only Spielberg film I haven't re-watched since seeing it in the theater.



And I unabashedly love the San Diego rampage in Lost World.  Sure it makes no real sense, but it's Spielberg making an old fashioned dino movie, and I think it's a ton of fun.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Malmordo View Post
 

Didn't Spielberg walk away from THE LOST WORLD to work on AMISTAD, leaving Koepp to direct much of the film? That's what I've heard.



I think he did post on Lost World remotely while filming Amistad, but I hadn't heard that he left Lost World unfinished.  Lost World wrapped principal photography in December of 1996 and Amistad started in February of 1997.




- first class 782 - 09-07-2017

I put Crystal Skull dead last.  Watching Spielberg on auto-pilot is heartbreaking; at least he gave a shit during both TLW and Hook.  They were messes, to be certain, but at least each possessed moments of directorial virtuosity.




- boone daniels - 09-07-2017

AMISTAD is the worst Spielberg.




- turingmachine75 - 09-07-2017

AMy understanding is that the RV cliff scene was the only thing Speilberg directed on TLW.

Could be wrong.


- malmordo - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turingmachine75 View Post

My understanding is that the RV cliff scene was the only thing Speilberg directed on TLW.

Could be wrong.

That's what I've heard, too.



Koepp is credited as second-unit director but was basically running the show.




- commodorejohn - 09-07-2017

APart of me wants to commit nerd sacrilege and say that Close Encounters is Worst Spielberg, because "Richard Dreyfuss goes crazy because aliens and drives to Wyoming to see a Pink Floyd concert" does not a satisfying story make, but there's just no way I can honestly say it's worse than KotCS, which is basically that minus the legitimately harrowing build-up and the "spectacle" part of the empty spectacle climax.


- malmordo - 09-07-2017

THE TERMINAL is pretty awful.




- boone daniels - 09-07-2017

No. AMISTAD is the worst.



It's performatively woke before we called things performatively woke.




- bartleby_scriven - 09-07-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Part of me wants to commit nerd sacrilege and say that Close Encounters is Worst Spielberg, because "Richard Dreyfuss goes crazy because aliens and drives to Wyoming to see a Pink Floyd concert" does not a satisfying story make, but there's just no way I can honestly say it's worse than KotCS, which is basically that minus the legitimately harrowing build-up and the "spectacle" part of the empty spectacle climax.

Sorry commodore, but fuck this post.




- fatherdude - 09-07-2017

I don't believe for a second that Koepp ghost-directed any significant portion of THE LOST WORLD.



There's nothing "awful" about THE TERMINAL.  It's perfectly fine for the treacly comedy that it is.  AMISTAD I can see hating because of the pretense, but you've still got mutton-chopped Sir Anthony.



CLOSE ENCOUNTERS is certainly an odd choice for least favorite Spielberg, and I can't come within eight solar systems of agreeing, but I guess I can see someone not liking it.  No matter how you feel about it, though, the fact that it has atmosphere and a sense of awe means it clobbers CRYSTAL SKULL by default.  It's also somehow a scarier movie than CRYSTAL SKULL despite having benevolent aliens instead of vindictive, head-exploding ones, which pretty much says it all.




- cd underbelly - 09-07-2017

AClose Encounters is one of those G.O.A.T. films.

I have little faith in Indy 5 after Indy 4.

I'm looking forward to Ready Player One in spite of Spielberg. It looks like he's having fun just throwing any and all pop culture reference on the screen. I'm going to be in theatre and point all the things I know AND I'LL CLAP!.

Spielberg, that hack fraud.


- commodorejohn - 09-07-2017

A[quote name="FatherDude" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1500#post_4358166"]It's also somehow a scarier movie than CRYSTAL SKULL despite having benevolent aliens instead of vindictive, head-exploding ones, which pretty much says it all.[/quote]
This is the absolutely mind-boggling truth.


- mola ram - 09-07-2017

Amistad is a good film, it's biggest sin is length. I really enjoy the Terminal as well.



List of actual bad Spielberg movies:



Hook (soundtrack is GOAT though)


The Lost World


1941




- mola ram - 09-07-2017

Quote:


Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Part of me wants to commit nerd sacrilege and say that Close Encounters is Worst Spielberg, because "Richard Dreyfuss goes crazy because aliens and drives to Wyoming to see a Pink Floyd concert" does not a satisfying story make, but there's just no way I can honestly say it's worse than KotCS, which is basically that minus the legitimately harrowing build-up and the "spectacle" part of the empty spectacle climax.


Close Encounters is easily one of Spielberg's masterworks. I saw it in theaters yesterday, dat third act is pure magic.