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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- fraid uh noman - 10-23-2017

A[quote name="Bartleby_Scriven" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1920#post_4388618"]But did Batman mean to save Harvey or Rachel in The Dark Knight?[/quote]
Anyone else think that that look on Rachel's face was due to her hearing Harvey getting rescued and thinks that Bruce chose not to save her because of her unread letter to him?


- malmordo - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 

Darabont's is a massive improvement.  The thing at least as velocity, structure, tension and entertaining characters.



I haven't read Columbus's Indy 3 draft in some time, but I remember it being really bad.


Yeah, my mistake, Columbus wrote that awful Monkey King draft.




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

I think if you removed the fantastical elements, Monkey King had a solid premise.  Plus, with an aging Indy, the Garden of Eternal Peaches (aka Fountain of Youth of the Orient) was a natural fit.



A straight-up reworking of the Fate of Atlantis plotline could have been fucking amazing.  Who wrote that?  To this day one of the best videogame stories of all time.  And whoever wrote it actually understood the structure of how an Indy movie is supposed to work.




- mola ram - 10-23-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
 

Maybe it's not as 100% perfect as Raiders, but there are reasons why many consider it to be a strong sequel. The Ford-Connery relationship adds a good heart to the story, the melding of exciting action, humor and dramatic moments and the quotable script give it a resonance that most sequels can't manage. While ToD is fun and I give it points for not retreading Raiders, it doesn't balance those aspects as well as Crusade does.



I have to disagree that it's "a light-hearted sitcom version of Raiders" and doesn't stand on it's own. While Crusade may some slight similarities to Raiders, they're strictly on a superficial level as the film largely charts its own course. The character relationships, tone, mythology and locations are all different from the original.



It still has some intense moments to rival the first two: the boat chase where Indy is being chased by the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword; Indy getting pissed and nearly strangling Elsa; the epic tank battle and the trials to reach the grail while Henry's life hangs in the balance.


As good as it is, LC is pretty clearly Raiders Lite. It has almost none of the first film's edge, and some of the broad comedy undermines the suspense. Instead of being the badass anti-hero of archaeology, Indy has fully converted into cinematic hero mode. Doesn't mean the ride isn't fun, but I'll take a morally ambiguous, flawed human being over a wise-cracking superman dragging along a coterie of sidekicks (even if one of them's Sean Connery). The film also turns Marcus and Sallah into buffoons, and the villians are pretty bland, which kind of sucks.



The pacing drags for about 30 minutes after the Young Indy opening, it comes back to life once Sean Connery enters the picture. Speaking of the Young Indy opening, while it's very fun, it commits an unpardonable cinematic sin: the tendency to explain every chief characteristic of a character by having them all occur at roughly the same moment. So Indy, in the prologue, gets his hat, his penchant for using a whip, the scar on his cheek, and his lust for adventure, all in one moment--and all of the mystery and allure of the character which was so key to Raiders is explained away. Raiders had a much smarter script; it left in the mystery and relied on the suggestion rather than the explanation of the past. And it kinda shits on Temple of Doom's character arc where he goes from "Fortune and Glory, kid" selfish treasure seeker to "Yeah...all of us/I understand its power now" respectable anti-hero.



Temple of Doom is more visually interesting than Last Crusade. Crusade was too similar to Raiders in setting IMO. I think Temple of Doom really benefits from being different this way. If I conjure an image of Crusade in my head it just looks like a worse version of Raiders. Slocombe's cinematography isn't a patch on his work for the previous two films (several shots are actually out of focus) and the ILM effects even by 1989 standards is pretty subpar.



Again, I know it sounds like I'm hating on Crusade, but I'm a big fan of the film. I've just grown to prefer Temple.




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post
 

As good as it is, LC is pretty clearly Raiders Lite. It has almost none of the first film's edge, and some of the broad comedy undermines the suspense. Instead of being the badass anti-hero of archaeology, Indy has fully converted into cinematic hero mode...



Nothing says "no longer a badass anti-hero" like threatening to strangle a former lover or to chop up a henchman in a boat propeller, opening the movie by straight-up and knowingly stealing a man's valuable artwork (and ultimately he and all his security guards die in a fire), machine gunning a bunch of Nazis and not giving a fuck, and giggling when you horrifically kill a man by tossing a wooden javelin into his motorcycle spokes.



Absolutely no edge there.




- mola ram - 10-23-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 


Nothing says "no longer a badass anti-hero" like threatening to straight up strangle a former lover, threatening to chop up a henchman in a boat propeller, allowing Nazi scum to drink from the wrong cup, opening the movie by straight-up and knowingly stealing a man's valuable artwork (and ultimately he and all his security guards die in a fire), machine gunning a bunch of Nazis and not giving a fuck, and giggling when you horrifically kill a man by tossing a wooden javelin into his motorcycle spokes.



Absolutely no edge there.


I'll give you the strangling part, but parts like this in the film are played for laughs. In terms of tone, Last Crusade is closer to Crystal Skull than the first two installments. It lacks a lot of the grit and intensity of the first two installments.



Last Crusade does have a great script, it's better than Doom's script. But, I would argue that Spielberg's pure directing in Temple of Doom actually surpasses Raiders in some ways. Of course Raiders is the superior movie, but when I watch Temple of Doom, the set ups, the direction, the craftsmanship, I put it up there with Jaws in terms of quality of direction. I know that sounds nuts. But Raiders was shot quickly and benefited from that. Spielberg didn't mail Temple in, he appears to have savored directing it.




- bradito - 10-23-2017

AIndy also blasphemes, Mola Ram! And gets slapped for it.


- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post
 

I'll give you the strangling part, but parts like this in the film are played for laughs.



If it's played for laughs, it's to lighten the dark as fuck content.  The boat crew had families!  They had dreams!




- bradito - 10-23-2017

ALC is PG-13. It's for grown-ups almost.


- engineer - 10-23-2017

The thing that keeps THE LAST CRUSADE from being a four-star classic, to me, is that there's little sense of danger.  The Random Nazis are played off as Disney-movie level goofball incompetent (though I love the motorcycle bit) and the Hitler scene, while funny, is a little too silly.



Damn solid movie and lots of fun, but not enough menace.  Your hero can only be as great as your villains are evil.




- bradito - 10-23-2017

AEngineer, it's PG-13!


- Overlord - 10-23-2017

I will concede that I've always been lukewarm on Vogel as a physical threat to Indy.  While the guy has menace and acting chops, he's so tiny it's not intimidating when they get down to fisticuffs.




- commodorejohn - 10-23-2017

AAlso if you don't think watching a man in the grip of pure horror as he withers into decrepitude, death, and decay in the span of a few brief seconds is dark enough, man.


- mola ram - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

Engineer, it's PG-13!

You can thank Temple of Doom for that Smile




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Also if you don't think watching a man in the grip of pure horror as he withers into decrepitude, death, and decay in the span of a few brief seconds is dark enough, man.

Serves him right for destroying the shield generators on Hoth.




- bradito - 10-23-2017

A[quote name="commodorejohn" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1920#post_4388669"]Also if you don't think watching a man in the grip of pure horror as he withers into decrepitude, death, and decay in the span of a few brief seconds is dark enough, man.[/quote]

We're metal as fuck.


- ravi - 10-23-2017

A
Quote: Doesn't mean the ride isn't fun, but I'll take a morally ambiguous, flawed human being over a wise-cracking superman dragging along a coterie of sidekicks

How is Indy a "superman" in LC if the whole film is about him reconnecting with his estranged father and learning there are things more important than chasing artifacts? Even if he has a few sidekicks, Indy's still the one driving the story and he's still the same rough and tumble treasure hunter we saw from the first two films. I feel like you're really reaching.

Disagree that most of the sequences in Crusade are played for laughs and there's no edge. The bits that Overlord mentioned, the entire zeppelin conversation between Indy and Henry, the tank battle and the finale to save Henry's life are played pretty straight.

You seem to forget that entire sequence with Willie making grossed out faces while traveling on the elephant, screaming her head off at the animals in the jungle or the whole monkey brain feast. Those are far sillier than anything in Crusade.

Sallah and Marcus may have their comedic moments, but wouldn't say they're complete buffoons. Marcus is taken seriously in the opening and he gets to tell Donovan he's meddling with powers he can't comprehend. Sallah still saves Henry from the tank and tells the remaining Nazis to drop their guns. Yeah, OK the bit where he takes camels for his family is comedic, but then who was the guy screaming in fear when they opened the Well of Souls and started comically singing when kissed by Marion?

I'll give you that Donovan's a bit bland compared to Belloq and Mola Ram, but the presence of Dr. Elsa, Colonel Vogel, the Brotherhood of the Cruciform Sword and bringing the Nazi Army out in full force makes up for it.

Don't agree on the opening prologue. I don't feel the point of the scene is for us to believe that Indy just happened to acquire all his signature traits that day, but its more to show us why he grew up enjoying archaelogy and follow in his father's footsteps. Plus, Phoenix does a good job of aping Ford's mannerisms.




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

I love a readability-improving paragraph break as much as the next man, but now you've taken it too far, Ravi!




- commodorejohn - 10-23-2017

A[quote name="Bradito" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1900#post_4388673"][quote name="commodorejohn" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1920#post_4388669"]Also if you don't think watching a man in the grip of pure horror as he withers into decrepitude, death, and decay in the span of a few brief seconds is dark enough, man.[/quote]
We're metal as fuck.[/quote]
Come think, he did look a little like Eddie the Head by the end there.


- ravi - 10-23-2017

ADamn it! I was trying to break the reply into separate quotes and yeah....

Just give me a sec!


- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravi View Post


 Plus, Phoenix does a good job of aping Ford's mannerisms.



Did Sean Patrick Flannery (who was miscast from the get-go) ever watch an Indiana Jones movie before they started filming the television show?




- mola ram - 10-23-2017

In Raiders, Sallah is a 3-dimensional character. He's called "the best digger in Cairo," he's kind of smooth, he has some silly moments, sure, but he's a capable, professional guy. In Last Crusade, he's a pez-wearing goofball who says things like "Hello, Mista Indy, sir" and worries about his brother's camels. it is a dumbing down of the character and it's one of the few elements in Last Crusade that falls flat for me.



River Pheonix was excellent as Young Indy though.




- fraid uh noman - 10-23-2017

A[quote name="commodorejohn" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1920#post_4388669"]Also if you don't think watching a man in the grip of pure horror as he withers into decrepitude, death, and decay in the span of a few brief seconds is dark enough, man.[/quote]
He looks like he turns into Christopher Lloyd for just a bit of that sequence. And seeing this theatrically as a 7 year old in 89....I was convinced I saw him turn into Doc Brown..


- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post
 

In Raiders, Sallah is a 3-dimensional character. He's called "the best digger in Cairo," he's kind of smooth, he has some silly moments, sure, but he's a capable, professional guy. In Last Crusade, he's a pez-wearing goofball who says things like "Hello, Mista Indy, sir" and worries about his brother's camels. it is a dumbing down of the character and it's one of the few elements in Last Crusade that falls flat for me.




COMPENSATION FOR MY BROTHER-IN-LAW'S CAR!




- ravi - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post
 

In Last Crusade, he's a pez-wearing goofball who says things like "Hello, Mista Indy, sir" and worries about his brother's camels. it is a dumbing down of the character and it's one of the few elements in Last Crusade that falls flat for me.



How is that a "dumbing down" of the character if the camel bit is for a few quick seconds? You seem to miss the part where he uses the newspaper to punch the Nazis or saves Henry from the tank and tells the remaining Nazis to put down their guns.



I really don't understand why you'd have issues with Sallah and Marcus here, yet not be bothered by the (even sillier) stuff Willie does in the first half of ToD.




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravi View Post
 

How is that a "dumbing down" of the character if the camel bit is for a few quick seconds? You seem to miss the part where he uses the newspaper to punch the Nazis or saves Henry from the tank and tells the remaining Nazis to put down their guns.



I really don't understand why you'd have issues with Sallah and Marcus here, yet not be bothered by the (even sillier) stuff Willie does in the first half of ToD.


Kate Capshaw was pretty fetch in Temple of Doom.  That counts for a lot.




- engineer - 10-23-2017

Oh my, yes...  Make a blind man talk about seein' again!




- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
 

Oh my, yes...  Make a blind man talk about seein' again!


She was a one of a kind love affair.




- commodorejohn - 10-23-2017

ANah. A pretty actress only goes so far, and that character is so absolutely nails-on-a-chalkboard that Capshaw never had a chance.


- Overlord - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Nah. A pretty actress only goes so far, and that character is so absolutely nails-on-a-chalkboard that Capshaw never had a chance.

If I was the director of Temple of Doom, I don't know how I could have kept myself from falling in love with Capshaw.




- mola ram - 10-23-2017

Willie isn't a returning character like Sallah and Marcus.



I get why people rag on Willie, but I never minded her. She's a rich, spoiled singer taken on this crazy advenure. She's supposed to be a bit annoying, which makes it even more funny when Indy gets pissed at her.



Plus, the bug room scene wouldn't work half as well without her.




- rexbanner - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mola Ram View Post


It is a dumbing down of the character and it's one of the few elements in Last Crusade that falls flat for me.



I hear ya, but for me Sallah 2.0 is just a lovely character to spend time with. The edges being sanded off him is worth it for -




Sallah: Run.



Brody: Yes.



Sallah: Papers. Got it here. Just finished reading it myself.



[to Marcus]



Sallah: Run.



Brody: Yes.



Sallah: "Egyptian Mail," morning edition.



[to Marcus]



Sallah: Run.



Brody: Did you say, uh...



[Sallah punches one of the German guides]



Sallah: RUN!




- engineer - 10-23-2017

I liked her.  She's as far as you can get from Marion Ravenwood (who is awesome) but I found her fun toward the end.


I wish Willie had showed up at the wedding.  I'd bet she and Marion could tip a few glasses and talk up a storm about ol' Henry Jr.




- rexbanner - 10-23-2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
 

I liked her.  She's as far as you can get from Marion Ravenwood (who is awesome) but I found her fun toward the end.  


I wish Willie had showed up at the wedding.  I'd bet she and Marion could tip a few glasses and talk up a storm about ol' Henry Jr.



Yeah, it's a (nowadays refreshing) good example of writers doing something different for the sake of doing something different, which is a good thing in sequels and franchises.




- commodorejohn - 10-23-2017

A[quote name="Engineer" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/1950#post_4388704"]I wish Willie had showed up at the wedding.  I'd bet she and Marion could tip a few glasses and talk up a storm about ol' Henry Jr.[/quote]
Okay, this would almost make up for every scene with her in Temple.

Almost.