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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- rexbanner - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

Excalibur works for me. Or the staff of Moses. Or the cup of Vlad Tepes. So would any number of artifact make-em-ups. Good storytelling can imbue any nonsense with importance. The Indy novels (and Choose Your Own Adventures books, actually) were full of dumb stuff for him to look for every time and it couldn’t have had less to do with whether they were good or not.


I agree, but I would argue that Excalibur, the staff of Moses, and the cup of Tepes (which is a cool myth I hadn't heard of before googling it just now) couldn't be made as resonant and important as the Ark and the Grail, simply because they're less well known and less sort of 'primevally' mythic.



On a related note, I was pretty disappointed as a kid to discover that the real story of the Ark of the Covenant does not involve levelling mountains and destroying armies, and there are no versions of the Bible with that evocative drawing of lightning, fire, the power of God or something coming out of it.




- hammerhead - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
On a related note, I was pretty disappointed as a kid to discover that the real story of the Ark of the Covenant does not involve levelling mountains and destroying armies, and there are no versions of the Bible with that evocative drawing of lightning, fire, the power of God or something coming out of it.


Ralph McQuarrie outdid himself there, no question.




- Paul C - 01-21-2018

A[quote name="RexBanner" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/2050#post_4454990"]
I agree, but I would argue that Excalibur, the staff of Moses, and the cup of Tepes (which is a cool myth I hadn't heard of before googling it just now) couldn't be made as resonant and important as the Ark and the Grail, simply because they're less well known and less sort of 'primevally' mythic.
[/quote]

I dunno, I can’t say I’ve ever had a whole lot of awareness of the ark of the covenant outside context of Indiana Jones, and Excalibur's pretty famous surely?

The problem with that one is, what are they going to do - have an Indy movie set in early 70's England?


- noirheaven - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul C View Post


I dunno, I can’t say I’ve ever had a whole lot of awareness of the ark of the covenant outside context of Indiana Jones, and Excalibur's pretty famous surely?

The problem with that one is, what are they going to do - have an Indy movie set in early 70's England?

Early '70s England is what I keep seeing, and I admit that it is partially due to the bias of seeing others here talk up having Indy 5 sort of mimic Hammer Film horror. Plus it'd be a different setting for an Indiana Jones adventure. I think we've seen enough of the desert and enough of the jungle (although I could completely hand wave/bless, say, the first fifteen-twenty minutes being set in a thick jungle just as an homage to the entire genre including Raiders of the Lost Ark itself).




- bartleby_scriven - 01-21-2018

I tell you what, an Indy 5 would go a long way to winning me over if Marion has died between films and Mutt is off fighting in Vietnam or something.




- noirheaven - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I tell you what, an Indy 5 would go a long way to winning me over if Marion has died between films and Mutt is off fighting in Vietnam or something.


I hope Marion has one scene, maybe a third or so of the way through it (a cool-down scene with Indy somewhere, perhaps), but I'm pretty sure Mutt won't be appearing.



We'll probably get a few lines of dialogue about Mutt and that will be that.




- user_32 - 01-21-2018

A[quote name="Bradito" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/2040#post_4454973"]Indy should be searching for the planet that Scientologists go to when they die or whatever.[/quote]

I would love to watch a movie where Indy punches L Ron Hubbard in the 1960s. Hell, have him punch Charles Manson too.

“Hippies. I hate these guys.”


- bartleby_scriven - 01-21-2018

I know it seems mean-spirited to off Marion, but I really think the character and Karen Allen have nothing left to bring to this story.



Look, Crystal Skull was positioned as being about Old Indy, but it's really not. He complains about things being harder than they used to be, but the story could easily be happening to a 40-year-old Indy: discovering he has a long-lost teenage son, encountering an old fling, finding the old spark again. Crystal Skull is not about Old Indy, it's about Indy having a mid-life crisis and learning to settle down. It just so happens that the filmmakers waited too long and got a 65-year-old Harrison Ford in the role.



But an Indy 5 can only be about Indy getting old. I'm not talking going full Logan, but it's the difference between Rocky Balboa and Creed. In Rocky Balboa the titular character knows he has unsettled business and basically learns you're as old as you feel. In Creed, however, it's about accepting mortality but also finding the courage to go on one last adventure.



I quoted Alfred Lord Tennyson's "Ulysses" a while ago in the leadup to The Force Awakens, and I'll quote it again here as this is one of my favorite lines of poetry:



You and I are old;/


Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;/


Death closes all: but something ere the end,/


Some work of noble note, may yet be done,/


Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.



Crystal Skull was about still having "stuff in the basement." Indy 5 needs to be about one last work of noble note in the face of inevitable and fast-approaching death.




- MichaelM - 01-21-2018

Bart's post?



So good.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-21-2018

I have my moments!



It's like Bob Chipman said, we talk about superheroes and Star Wars and Indy being like our modern mythology, but the old epics always followed their heroes to the end. King Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf, we see their one last great adventure, and their death, and their passing the torch.



Indy is not James Bond, because you're not going to recast him and set the story in the present day. You can recast him (I don't like it, but I'd accept it) and set the stories in the '30s, but that actor would always be operating within the framework of the set continuity. And sure, introduce a new guy in 1934 (a year before Temple of Doom), then have his sequel be in 1937 (a year after Raiders), then have a sequel in 1939 (right before the outbreak of WWII).



It can be done, but it's not James Bond. It'll always be an expanded universe of the Ford movies, the way the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles has the foregone conclusion of building up to the status quo we find Indy in at the start of Raiders (or Temple of Doom, if you're nasty).




- fatherdude - 01-21-2018

AJust keep Indy out of America this time, except maybe for the obligatory college scene. Which TEMPLE proved isn't actually obligatory.


- carnotaur3 - 01-21-2018

AYeah I vote no college. He’s not teaching anymore. Globetrotting is his retirement.

I don’t need to see another redone wide swing to OTS Marcus shot in another Indy film.


- rexbanner - 01-21-2018

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I have my moments!



It's like Bob Chipman said, we talk about superheroes and Star Wars and Indy being like our modern mythology, but the old epics always followed their heroes to the end. King Arthur, Robin Hood, Beowulf, we see their one last great adventure, and their death, and their passing the torch.



One of the reasons I liked TLJ so much was that it mirrored King Arthur and Beowulf in denying the hero a happy and content old age. I worry that there is the potential to mishandle Indy V 5 if they make it with a similar mindset though: the individual films might be epic in themselves, but there's not an over-arching narrative or issue Indy's dealing with - he's just a guy who gets drawn into these amazing adventures. He's a hero, but he's not an epic hero - give up a last big adventure, then have him enjoy a comfortable semi-retirement beating up hippies at the college.



I will usually defend Lucas and Spielberg on anything, but it's a bit rubbish that Crystal Skull undid Last Crusade's status as The End: that's as perfect a way to end Indiana Jones's stories as they could get. Everyone's happy, everyone's gained a bit of illumination, and there's more adventure out there.




- fraid uh noman - 01-21-2018

AIt's gonna be like Blade Runner 2049. Indy is so old that he's the macguffin and a younger archaeologist is looking for HIM..


- rexbanner - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

It's gonna be like Blade Runner 2049. Indy is so old that he's the macguffin and a younger archaeologist is looking for HIM..



The Nazis open the ark; gasp; reverently place the ancient album of Finnish gothic-metal into the CD player. 



"Close your ears Marion!"




- user_32 - 01-21-2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

Indy is so old that he's the macguffin and a younger archaeologist is looking for HIM..


http://dundeemovie.com




- arjen rudd - 01-21-2018

AHow important is the Indy continuity to anyone though? Does anyone care that Temple of Doom takes place before Raiders? Only nerds, making a point of how his arc in Doom informs where he is in Raiders (and what happened to Short Round, by the way?) Most people don’t even notice the subtle differences in the character, because they’re not that important, and only come into play if you’re watching them as pieces of a larger whole, the MCU way, which is something I really hope no one’s clamoring for with this property.

I’d be fine with a dozen films set in 1936. Or peppered around the 30s and 40s. Here’s Indy sneaking into occupied France to explore the Templar conspiracy to hide Christ’s bloodline. Maybe there’s vampires! And then in the next one, it’s 1938, and it’s off to Nepal, trying to find Shanghai-La, which is protected by yetis! The key is to free Indy of continuity. Despite Last Crusade’s greatness, they really took the wrong lessons into KOTCS. The larger arc and the Jones family adventures are missteps.

As to whether they’d be just EU Adventures then, sure, to some people. The people who were kids when the original trilogy came out, most likely. But they wouldn’t be any less “valid” than any Star Wars movie that’s come out after Return of the Jedi.

And yeah, give some other people a shot at directing them as well. I think Neil Marshall has tremendous one in him.


- virtanen - 01-21-2018

Yes, I'd prefer they'd just forget the continuity and callback -nonsense. It doesn't really matter which order you watch Raiders and Temple, much like with the serials that inspired them in the first place.



One thing they need to do is to make this feel (for lack of a better word) real again. That was KOTC' biggest sin for me, it felt way too slick and "movie-y". A lot of it came from the reliance on greenscreen over real locations and Kaminski's cinematography AND GRADING! They don't need to hire Paul Greengrass to helm it, but take it towards the original trilogy where you had blood, sweat, real locations and real stunts in contrast to the pulpy adventure stuff.




- rexbanner - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtanen View Post
 

One thing they need to do is to make this feel (for lack of a better word) real again. That was KOTC' biggest sin for me, it felt way too slick and "movie-y". A lot of it came from the reliance on greenscreen over real locations and Kaminski's cinematography AND GRADING! They don't need to hire Paul Greengrass to helm it, but take it towards the original trilogy where you had blood, sweat, real locations and real stunts in contrast to the pulpy adventure stuff.



Grading's now obviously fundamentally pervasive, and is used badly, well, subtly, etc. Crystal Skull's look suffers from being of that 2007-11-era when the thinking just must have been, "I want my picture to look as fucking shite as possible."




- Nooj - 01-21-2018

heheheh



WHICH IS THE ORIGINAL???






- amos orange - 01-21-2018

That jungle chase in Crystal Skull, obviously meant to be the action centerpiece of the film, ended up being one of it's biggest failings. If Spielberg wanted to get people excited he'd say "We're doing zero CG in this next film. None."



Also, it's an important trope that Indiana Jones kills people - and not just by letting them die but often by shooting them in the fucking head. He's a pulp character, not some aspirational figure.




- Nooj - 01-21-2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amos Orange View Post
 

He's a pulp character, not some aspirational figure.


time/longevity doesn't really concern itself with that as its creators age/change!



he's no longer JUST a pulp character and hasn't been quite that since Last Crusade!




- amos orange - 01-21-2018

Yeah well we see how that worked out.




- Nooj - 01-21-2018

people really liked the one where he had daddy issues!




I can fully buy into an old Indy being not quite as ruthless as he was in his relatively younger days.  That's fine and dandy.  With crystalskull, I just took issue with just how nonplussed I was walking out of the theater.  I just had a non-reaction to it and just kinda moved on.  I completely agree with nearly all of the criticisms and frustration directed towards it... but the movie wasn't even worth me getting hyped up on that!




- mola ram - 01-21-2018

I pray to god Karen Allen isn't in this one. I'm sure she's a nice lady and I love her character in Raiders, but she was absolutely painful to watch in Crystal Skull.




- Bucho - 01-21-2018

AI'm with the Commodore. Atlantis. In the South Pacific.

And the villain should be a nazi played by [SPOILER]a CGI Peter Cushing.[/SPOILER]


- hammerhead - 01-21-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucho View Post

I'm with the Commodore. Atlantis. In the South Pacific.

And the villain should be a nazi played by
a CGI Peter Cushing.


I think you mean



CGI Christopher Lee. In a crossover with 1941.




- analog olmos - 01-22-2018

A[quote name="Bartleby_Scriven" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/2070#post_4455011"]I know it seems mean-spirited to off Marion, but I really think the character and Karen Allen have nothing left to bring to this story.

Look, Crystal Skull was positioned as being about Old Indy, but it's really not. He complains about things being harder than they used to be, but the story could easily be happening to a 40-year-old Indy: discovering he has a long-lost teenage son, encountering an old fling, finding the old spark again. Crystal Skull is not about Old Indy, it's about Indy having a mid-life crisis and learning to settle down. It just so happens that the filmmakers waited too long and got a 65-year-old Harrison Ford in the role.

But an Indy 5 can only be about Indy getting old. I'm not talking going full Logan, but it's the difference between Rocky Balboa and Creed. In Rocky Balboa the titular character knows he has unsettled business and basically learns you're as old as you feel. In Creed, however, it's about accepting mortality but also finding the courage to go on one last adventure. 

I quoted Alfred Lord Tennyson's "Ulysses" a while ago in the leadup to The Force Awakens, and I'll quote it again here as this is one of my favorite lines of poetry: 

You and I are old;/
Old age hath yet his honour and his toil;/
Death closes all: but something ere the end,/
Some work of noble note, may yet be done,/
Not unbecoming men that strove with Gods.

Crystal Skull was about still having "stuff in the basement." Indy 5 needs to be about one last work of noble note in the face of inevitable and fast-approaching death.
[/quote]

And this is why I think one of the only stories that can truly work is Indiana Jones and the Tree of Life.

It's the hunt for Eden. Everything that represents youth and innocence and unspoiled beauty. And in one of the only times I'd get onboard with a "rhyming" theme in a series, an 80 year old Indy being tempted with the gift of eternal youth has a heck of a lot more resonance than 40 year old Indy with the Grail.


- Overlord - 01-22-2018

Just adapt The Fate of Atlantis script.



It was incredible.




- Nooj - 01-22-2018

Atalk to sternhart and costa


don't be a stranger now


know any good drinking tunes?


- Overlord - 01-22-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

talk to sternhart and costa


don't be a stranger now


know any good drinking tunes?


Orichalcum FTW.




- Nooj - 01-22-2018

LOOK

BUT DON'T TOUCH!!!!




CHURL!!!!




- Nooj - 01-22-2018

THERE'S A SHINY COPPER BEAD IN THERE!!!!!




- Overlord - 01-22-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

THERE'S A SHINY COPPER BEAD IN THERE!!!!!


"Ever hear the term "angry god"? Wait till you see me!"




- MichaelM - 01-22-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post

And this is why I think one of the only stories that can truly work is Indiana Jones and the Tree of Life.

It's the hunt for Eden. Everything that represents youth and innocence and unspoiled beauty. And in one of the only times I'd get onboard with a "rhyming" theme in a series, an 80 year old Indy being tempted with the gift of eternal youth has a heck of a lot more resonance than 40 year old Indy with the Grail.

Except someone's already basically done this story.



(Granted, no one saw it, but it's been done!)