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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Didn't the early, early rumors of Indy 4 have him accompanied by a daughter (that I remember, I think in the early 2000s, was said would be played by Natalie Portman)?



Any of the drafts feature that?




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

George Lucas confirmed that he had wanted to give Indy a daughter, but Spielberg rejected the idea (supposedly because he had done a father/daughter dynamic in THE LOST WORLD), so they wound up doing a son instead.  It's a safe bet that one of the missing screenplays (the Nathanson drafts?) has this character.  I remember the Portman rumors, but who knows if there was ever anything to that.  At one point the internet was telling us that Kevin Costner was going to be Indy's brother, after all.



Also, after Darabont's script was rejected by Lucas, he actually performed his own rewrite of CITY OF THE GODS called PHANTOM CITY OF THE GODS.  Spielberg swiftly rejected it.  While I cannot imagine that script is great, it would be very useful to have because it would show exactly what Lucas's objections were to Darabont's work.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Hmmm, according to the Indy Wiki, a 13-year-old daughter with Marion was in the Darabont draft:



Quote:

During development of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, Frank Darabont's script involved Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood having a 13-year-old daughter. However, Spielberg objected to the idea, finding it too similar to The Lost World: Jurassic Park.[4] Instead, a son was developed for Indy and Marion. According to Crystal Skull screenwriter David Koepp, the son (Mutt Williams, played by Shia LaBeouf) was developed by Jeff Nathanson and George Lucas.[5] LaBeouf said he would have prefered Indiana Jones had a daughter in the film (who was long-rumored to be played by Natalie Portman, who played as Padme in the Star Wars movies) instead of a son.[6]

But the way you guys talk about it, there's no daughter.




- ryoken - 01-29-2018

A daughter would had made a lot more sense.


Picture old Indy dealing with an adventurer daughter in the late 60's or 70's, in the midst of the Cold War and the social upheaval of those eras.


It would had been much better than greaser monkey swinger son.




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

There's definitely no child in the Darabont draft, although what we have is supposedly (though it's never been confirmed) the third of the three drafts he turned in over the year he was working with Spielberg.  So it's possible the daughter character is in one of the earlier ones, or the wikia is just full of prunes.



I've also read that supposedly Darabont's script had Nazis hiding in Venezuela as the bad guys, but his script really only has one such character as part of a tapestry of villains (including Ruskies and a Peruvian dictator).  It's hard to know what's internet BS and what comes from scripts we simply do not have access to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 

A daughter would had made a lot more sense.



Not to mention shake hands with the Young Indy bookends, although with those removed from the DVD release I guess Lucas doesn't consider them canon anymore.



As I've said far upthread though, if they wanted to introduce a daughter character even now it's perfectly plausible.  Who knows how many bastard spawn Indy produced in his globe-trotting adventures.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Yeah, a quick perusal of this: http://www.theraider.net/films/indy4/multimedia/cityofthegods.pdf



And there's definitely no daughter. That draft is from 2003.



It makes sense, though, that Darabont's earliest drafts would try to incorporate a daughter because he was so involved with the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, and that's where the daughter shows up.



I haven't seen those episodes in a long time, but if you're a stickler for continuity there's a chance the unnamed woman that shows up in two episodes is Mutt's daughter.




- ryoken - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Yeah, a quick perusal of this: http://www.theraider.net/films/indy4/multimedia/cityofthegods.pdf



And there's definitely no daughter. That draft is from 2003.



It makes sense, though, that Darabont's earliest drafts would try to incorporate a daughter because he was so involved with the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, and that's where the daughter shows up.



I haven't seen those episodes in a long time, but if you're a stickler for continuity there's a chance the unnamed woman that shows up in two episodes is Mutt's daughter.



I bet that if the Tomb Raider reboot does well, we are getting Mutt's daughter in Indy V.




- noirheaven - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 

I think it's an issue of real estate.  Having a movie focused on Indy and Marion would have worked, or Indy and his son, or Indy and his college friend driven mad by the skull, or Indy and his untrustworthy British buddy from WWII.  But the movie just kind of throws all that into a blender and calls it a meal.


Yes exactly. This is the primary reason why I had "Don't have too many characters for the sake of having characters" at the top of my wish list for Indy 5. We saw how dismally this experiment can go if you're just packing the film with a bunch of supporting characters who, as a collective, tend to crowd Indy out of his own story.



This is doubtless the last time Harrison Ford and Steven Spielberg are going to make an Indiana Jones film. Let Indiana Jones dominate it.



As a side bar, there's a rumor floating around that they may still shoot this in 2018, starting in July or early August and looking to wrap in late November-ish or mid-December. The idea, according to what's been floated, is that Spielberg can keep looking to cast West Side Story and perhaps shoot that in 2019 while this undergoes a year-and-a-half postproduction tinker-athon.



One other good thing about that, were it to happen, is it'd give a not-getting-any-younger John Williams tons of time to work on a score for the final Spielberg-helmed Indy adventure.




- Codename - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 


I bet that if the Tomb Raider reboot does well,



It won't.



I'm against the idea of Indy as a parent. Or husband for that matter. Indy should be a lifelong bachelor whose only passion is his work. It's why I'm supportive of the idea of Marion having passed on since Crystal Skull.



If you need a younger sidekick character, bring back an older Short Round as a grizzled Treasure Hunter!




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

When I'm at my most skeptical about Indy 5 I remind myself that regardless of how the movie itself turns out, it's still a delivery system for another John Williams Indy score and another Drew Struzan Indy poster.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Codename View Post


I'm against the idea of Indy as a parent. Or husband for that matter. Indy should be a lifelong bachelor whose only passion is his work. It's why I'm supportive of the idea of Marion having passed on since Crystal Skull.



What about Mutt being dead and Indy and Marion being estranged as a result of that?  It does kind of entirely reverse the contribution of CRYSTAL SKULL, but then bad ideas should be reversed.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

The only thing I'd say against Indy as lifelong bachelor is Raiders ends with him and Marion clearly together as a couple. Then Temple of Doom goes out of its way to be a prequel so Indy can be single again. It's really only Last Crusade that cemented this idea of Indy as a James Bondian type bedding a new woman every movie.




- user_32 - 01-29-2018

Well Raiders heavily implies that Indy slept or at the very least romanced an underage Marion then bolted so I assume he was quite the bachelor in his younger years (and a bit of skeev).




- Belloq87 - 01-29-2018

Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Well Raiders heavily implies that Indy slept or at the very least romanced an underage Marion then bolted so I assume he was quite the bachelor in his younger years (and a bit of skeev).


The RAIDERS story conference transcript with Lucas, Spielberg, and Kasdan makes it explicit that this was Lucas' intent.  His pitch for their backstory was for Marion to have been around 15 - 16, with Indy in his 20s.  Lucas said, "It would be funny," or something to that effect.




- user_32 - 01-29-2018

At least he waited until Anakin was of age until Padme "seduced" him.






- serpico jones - 01-29-2018

A[quote name="User_32" url="/community/t/155331/indiana-jones-and-youre-actually-fucking-serious-pre-release-discussion/2250#post_4460665"]At least he waited until Anakin was of age until Padme "seduced" him.



[/quote]

Natalie Portman is hot as hell in that movie.


- carnotaur3 - 01-29-2018

AAnakin:
“Your upper torso is tormenting me.”


- engineer - 01-29-2018

Someone in the row behind us at the midnight show of ATTACK OF THE CLONES was like, "A dominatrix outfit?!"



(Image and joke removed for being maybe kind of borderline sleazy.)




- carnotaur3 - 01-29-2018

AHan Solo: “Luke, your farther became Darth Vader over a girl?! No woman is worth this!”

To be fair, Anakin’s Oedipal tendencies really started with his single mom. Makes sense. It’s just really hard to empathize a psychopath.


- ryoken - 01-29-2018

Im just gonna leave this here.





Not judging anyone, in case youre wondering. Just thought it was a bit fitting


Im more of a Keira Knightley guy myself.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Hey ryoken, come on down to the Valerian thread where I talk about Besson objectifying ingenues.




- ryoken - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Hey ryoken, come on down to the Valerian thread where I talk about Besson objectifying ingenues.


I havent seen Valerian. Does Besson objectify Dane dehaan?


Nah, Im ok. I just wanted to be a jerk for once.




- user_32 - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 

I havent seen Valerian. Does Besson objectify Dane dehaan?




Topless Dane DeHaan gets everybody's motor running.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

He doesn't really objectify anyone, which makes the movie stand out compared to The Professional and The Fifth Element!




- atomtastic - 01-29-2018




- rexbanner - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post
 

What about Mutt being dead and Indy and Marion being estranged as a result of that?  It does kind of entirely reverse the contribution of CRYSTAL SKULL, but then bad ideas should be reversed.



I think that's a little melancholy and bleak for my tastes, at least when it comes to Indiana Jones, though it could work. Hell, they could go the full horrifying-future TFA route and have Mutt, dressed in clothes evocative of Belloq's Peruvian gear, ally himself with a bunch of neo-Nazis.



I actually wouldn't mind them going back to the Nazi well - you could have a The Boys from Brazil thing going on: Nazis no longer seem like played out stock villains now that it seems so many people within western civilisation are jonesing to bring them back.




- Nooj - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 


gore verbjectified!




- Dent6084 - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
 


I think that's a little melancholy and bleak for my tastes, at least when it comes to Indiana Jones, though it could work. Hell, they could go the full horrifying-future TFA route and have Mutt, dressed in clothes evocative of Belloq's Peruvian gear, ally himself with a bunch of neo-Nazis. 



I actually wouldn't mind them going back to the Nazi well - you could have a The Boys from Brazil thing going on: Nazis no longer seem like played out stock villains now that it seems so many people within western civilisation are jonesing to bring them back.


Shia would totally be down for that, not that Spielberg will have him back.




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

Quote:

Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post



I think that's a little melancholy and bleak for my tastes, at least when it comes to Indiana Jones, though it could work.



While I take the point, the fact is that CRYSTAL SKULL communicated the off-screen deaths of Henry Sr. and Marcus Brody in the most prosaic way possible, and nothing will convince me that Mutt Williams deserves more consideration than those beloved characters did.  As for Marion, it is kind of a bummer for Indy to have lost her again, but there needs to be some excuse to get him back in the field and not at home, which is where a happily married old dude would surely be.




- noirheaven - 01-29-2018

Yeah, I don't think they should make Harrison Ford repeat so many of the same beats as he did with Han Solo in The Force Awakens.



I usually love Spielberg's depiction of families and familial struggles but I honestly think Indiana Jones and family drama is more or less played out.



If anything, just give us a few lines of dialogue confirming that Mutt is doing his own thing, kind of like Michael Corleone's son, and give Indy a non-blood relation sidekick. Spielberg could do some subtle things with that. I mean Short Round is practically a son figure to him by the time Temple of Doom closes out.



Or have it be a young woman this time. Maybe Indy takes precocious college kid played by Sophia Lillis (?) under his wing, and through happenstance they have an adventure together, on-and-off. I could believe a Sophia Lillis playing a spunky, derring-do 2.0 version of Marion, for instance.



Marion can show up briefly but she's busy being a grandmother to Mutt's offspring, blah blah.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Set the movie in 1969, have Marion be dead for two years. That way she and Indy had a solid decade together, but long enough time has passed that he's not sitting around mourning her.




- noirheaven - 01-29-2018

That's fair.




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

I guess if you don't want to be too downbeat you can simply depict Indy on some final, seemingly low-key expedition on the far aside of the world from which he somehow gets dragged into his latest adventure.  That way you keep Marion off-screen without having to make her a headstone or imply that the marriage capsized. The important thing is that you find some way to get Indy back into his element without all kinds of exposition justifying it.  It could be as simple as him being called away to some overseas museum to weigh in on the origin of a mysterious relic, then gets kidnapped.




- bartleby_scriven - 01-29-2018

Have Marion be dead, but the MacGuffin be related to bringing people back to life. Temptation!




- engineer - 01-29-2018

Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

I actually wouldn't mind them going back to the Nazi well - you could have a The Boys from Brazil thing going on: Nazis no longer seem like played out stock villains now that it seems so many people within western civilisation are jonesing to bring them back.



I'm be good with that.  One thing: at the end, have the filth scum Nazi villains outnumbered and ripped to shreds by normal non-racist townspeople.  Like the part in IRON MAN after he subdues that one Ten Rings guy and tells the villagers "He's all yours."  Not just wiped out by the Power of the Ark or the Grail, but by people who refuse to put of up that sort of evil anymore.



Having a level of "your days are numbered, Nazi scum" narrative might be a nice edge to a franchise film in today's world.




- fatherdude - 01-29-2018

I think we can conclude from various comments by Spielberg that he won't depict Nazis in a movie like this again, even if he could contrive a plot reason for doing so.



TEMPLE OF DOOM gave us Chinese mobsters in its prologue.  Maybe Lao Che's surviving son still holds a grudge?