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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Stale Elvis - 05-31-2018

I hated Crystal Skull the moment we got a close up of the Russian heavy tying his boots instead of a shot of the guards getting machine gunned. You knew exactly the type of film you were getting as soon as Spielberg started to pull his punches.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 05-31-2018

My TEMPLE OF DOOM story: I was in 2nd grade when it came out, loved it, and had a t-shirt of the movie that had Indy, Short Round, Mola Ram, and Willie on it. However, since I was 8, I was kind of embarrassed that I was wearing a shirt with a girl on it, terrified that people would somehow think I was wearing a girl's shirt. So, I'd always hold my arm really awkwardly covering Willie up when I went out in public wearing it.

Yeah, I know.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 05-31-2018

is your arm ok?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 05-31-2018

(05-31-2018, 04:24 PM)Nooj Wrote: is your arm ok?

After several years of intense physical therapy and training montages, yes.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 05-31-2018

THEN GET BACK IN THE RING, YA BUM!!!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 05-31-2018

My Raiders story:

Saw it in a packed theater at the age of 13 with one of my best buds. We ended up near the back, and were near a slightly older teenaged couple who made out FURIOUSLY the entire movie. I couldn't decide if they were idiots for missing such a great film or if I was insanely jealous of the action the guy was getting.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 05-31-2018

I will go to bat for Lucas's idea to drag Indy out of the trunk of a car at the start of Indy 4.

Too bad about: everything else.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 05-31-2018

(05-31-2018, 09:06 AM)Codename Wrote:
(05-31-2018, 04:19 AM)Overlord Wrote:
(05-31-2018, 04:08 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: Funny how little that matters now. This next Indy could have a scene where Indy rips off a guy’s arm and beats him to death with it, and it would be PG-13

At this point, so long as the gore/blood isn't excessive, there is no amount of violence, in and of itself, that will bump you from a PG-13 to an R.

Similarly, there is apparently no amount of bloody/gory violence, by itself, that will take you from an R to an NC-17.

God help you if you flash a tit though...

They flash tits in PG-13.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 05-31-2018

(05-31-2018, 02:11 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(05-31-2018, 01:48 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: I mean, yeah, she freaks out, but she never just turns into a useless shrieking lump.

hey now!  who got them out of the spike room???

who led to Ford's wonderful delivery of WE ARE GOINNNNG TO DIIIE!!!!  Sad

Willie is totally game during the finale as well, when Indy says that they're ALL going to get out of there.  She's unlocking chains, giving Indy weapons to fight the big guy, she punches out a guy during the mine cart chase when Indy gets knocked aside.  And all of this is ignored in discussions of STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS because she just happens to be shallow and obnoxious hahahah!  But that's essentially her arc! She RISES to the occasion.

unlike Marion, who... starts off strong and then... kinda varies on a generally downward trend?

https://writershq.co.uk/problematic-badass-female-tropes-1-the-marion-effect/

(I remember getting my first sense of this during TOMORROW NEVER DIES when the movie suddenly turns Michelle Yeoh into a damsel for Pierce to save!  BOOOOLSHEEEEIIIT!!!)


https://theantinihilist.wordpress.com/2014/08/26/a-singer-from-missouri-defending-willie-scott/


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 06-01-2018

I never had a problem with Willie. Do I prefer Marion? Absolutely. Hell, I prefer Elsa, too. But I think Willie totally fits into the go-for-broke tone of TEMPLE OF DOOM, and I've always found her more amusing than obnoxious or grating.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hypnotoad - 06-01-2018

One thing I'd add to that article, at least from my perspective, 7 year old me hated Willie Scott. And I think it was pretty much because "She's mean to Indy and he doesn't like her, so neither do I."

But over time she grew on me to the point she's one of the highlights of a movie that I absolutely adore.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

WILLIE IS GREAT!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 06-01-2018

(05-31-2018, 01:46 PM)Nooj Wrote: funny thing is that Marion is also often the screaming damsel in distress

"INDDDYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!"

obviously more game for action than Willie, but it feels like people have overblown Marion's agency a bit in order to criticize Willie


(05-31-2018, 01:48 PM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: I like Willie. She's fun. I've never really gotten the problem with her!

But Temple of Doom was the one I watched the most as a kid because it was on HBO all the time.

And really, the real love story in Temple of Doom is between Indy and Short Round. Willie is just the comic sidekick, so she's supposed to be a hot mess.


Yup. And I understand why we get Willie after Marion, because she's not supposed to be a retread of Marion. She's the classic Hollywood brat that in the face of danger is more concerned about chipping one of her press on nails. It's all about contrast. Elsa is another intentional deviation from Marion and Willie in that she's the classic femme fatale. Had Lucas continued producing more Indy flicks immediately after CRUSADE I have no doubt we would have seen a lot more female archetypes like a scientist aiding Indy or a rival archeologist that keeps him on his toes.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 06-01-2018

Or the psychic Russian dominatrix with a bowl cut.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - simbob - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 02:05 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: Or the psychic Russian dominatrix with a bowl cut.

If you're going to do Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS at that time you may as well just keep it Nazis with all that leather.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-01-2018

Great link, nooj. That's a syndrome/pattern I haven't seen called out as succinctly as that before.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - carnotaur3 - 06-01-2018

Indy should spend the rest of the fifth film angry that he can't have the next female love interest because he's..."married"!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 09:34 AM)carnotaur3 Wrote: ...he's..."married"!

[Image: giphy.gif]


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - shaunh - 06-01-2018

Willie is great fun. She's basically what would happen if my mom (though, less annoying) got caught up in one of Indy's adventures. This complaint of her not being like Marion is boring -- not every woman (or man, for that matter) is going to be a shining beacon of self-reliance.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 06-01-2018

Is anyone complaining that she’s not like Marion? Surely just that she’s nowhere near as good as Marion.

And I don’t mean as competent or self reliant, I mean they just don’t pull off the character well. They’re aiming for a fun, brassy 1930s sexpot, and she reminds you of your mom. The performance is forced, artificial and very loud. She and Indy seem occasionally like they wouldn’t mind fucking, but probably won’t because they can’t stand being around one another.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bartleby_scriven - 06-01-2018

Again I says, the love story is between Indy and Short Round. Willie and Indy really are just DTF, that's all.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 06-01-2018

We never find out what happens to Short Round.

I like the idea that Indy’s waiter buddy who dies at the beginning was the last Short Round. ‘We shared many adventures, Indy! I go first!’


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

I think Capshaw's performance (forced, artificial, very loud) is very well suited to TEMPLE OF DOOM's general aesthetic.

While I've come to think that she's great, my point was to say that the general take on Willie seems to be to take her down as a terrible female character while propping up Marion beyond her actual STRONG FEMALE CHARACTER qualities.

and perhaps shaunmom IS a fun, brassy 1930s sexpot???


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bartleby_scriven - 06-01-2018

We never find out what happens to him? After the movie ends?

The climactic moment is Short Round telling Indy he loves him, and then snapping him out of the brainwashing with the power of fire! That's the relationship that matters. Willie is basically Sallah.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-01-2018

So you're cool talking about other people's mothers, I see!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

I didn't suggest anything that shaun or arjen didn't already bring up!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-01-2018

no weaseling out of this now

filthy hypocrite


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - shaunh - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:12 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: Is anyone complaining that she’s not like Marion? Surely just that she’s nowhere near as good as Marion.

And I don’t mean as competent or self reliant, I mean they just don’t pull off the character well. They’re aiming for a fun, brassy 1930s sexpot, and she reminds you of your mom. The performance is forced, artificial and very loud. She and Indy seem occasionally like they wouldn’t mind fucking, but probably won’t because they can’t stand being around one another.

Most of the complaints I've seen over the years that have to do with Willie being "loud" is typically a shield for her being regressive in light of Marion. Not saying that's where you're coming from, only that, in my experience, that seems to be the meat of what people are pissy about. Which is dumb, because women, like men, are allowed to be annoying, loud and devoid of any real depth -- but the women seem to take a lot more heat for it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

I have no problem with you mentioning me mum, michael!

It's the insinuenndo that her dozing off during movies is some defect like mine that I'll make you pay for!!!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bartleby_scriven - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:32 AM)Nooj Wrote: I have no problem with you mentioning me mum, michael!

It's the inplkcation that her dozing off during movies is some defect like mine that I'll make you pay for!!!

*wonders if this is a Noojism or a typo*


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:26 AM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: We never find out what happens to him? After the movie ends?

Yeah, after the movie ends. Indy’s back in America one year later, and he’s never mentioned again. It’s not a complaint, I’m actually just pondering the question.

I don’t feel like I’m taking a radical position on Willie here. I’ve never heard someone say they wished there were more Kate Capshaw performances out there to savor. And of course people can be annoying, loud and devoid of depth, but those traits typically don’t make them compelling film characters.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

it's certainly not a radical position

I get not liking Willie or Capshaw's performance. In my responses to commodore, I'm just talking about the flawed premise that she's an utterly useless lump compared to Marion. Based on what happens in the actual movies, I don't think that's true.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - bartleby_scriven - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:34 AM)arjen rudd Wrote:
(06-01-2018, 10:26 AM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: We never find out what happens to him? After the movie ends?

Yeah, after the movie ends. Indy’s back in America one year later, and he’s never mentioned again. It’s not a complaint, I’m actually just pondering the question.

I don’t feel like I’m taking a radical position on Willie here. I’ve never heard someone say they wished there were more Kate Capshaw performances out there to savor. And of course people can be annoying, loud and devoid of depth, but those traits typically don’t make them compelling film characters.

I'm just saying, Willie is supposed to be annoying. So talking about changes, in terms of casting and writing, are antithetical to Spielberg's contextualized intent. And it's okay that she's annoying because she's fun to laugh at, and doesn't really matter all that much because she's just a sidekick.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:34 AM)bartleby_scriven Wrote:
(06-01-2018, 10:32 AM)Nooj Wrote: I have no problem with you mentioning me mum, michael!

It's the inplkcation that her dozing off during movies is some defect like mine that I'll make you pay for!!!

*wonders if this is a Noojism or a typo*

TYPO!  It's hard to type posts on this forum on my phone

also, the movie is quite blatant about what it thinks about Willie as per Bart's comment above.

(Willie screams and whines about something)

INDY: "AHHHHH, SHADDAP WILLIE!!!"


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - MichaelM - 06-01-2018

(06-01-2018, 10:32 AM)Nooj Wrote: I have no problem with you mentioning me mum, michael!

It's the insinuenndo that her dozing off during movies is some defect like mine that I'll make you pay for!!!

The what?