The Trouble City Forums
INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

+- The Trouble City Forums (http://citizens.trouble.city)
+-- Forum: Main Street (http://citizens.trouble.city/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Focused Film Discussion (http://citizens.trouble.city/forumdisplay.php?fid=94)
+--- Thread: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion (/showthread.php?tid=155331)



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

As someone who relitigates CRYSTAL SKULL more than anyone else here by several orders of magnitude, my defense is that it's an endlessly fascinating film to dissect, because it's so frustrating and so improbable.  It avoids the trappings one would assume a fourth Indy made after a 19 year hiatus would be most at risk for while fucking up absolutely basic stuff that you would have just taken for granted Spielberg would get right.  The bizarre indifference it gives off is such a strange thing that it demands investigation, and when you factor in its insane development history, the egos involved and the objectively better script that got binned for mysterious reasons, you're left with a scintillating drama and a subject that is evergreen, never depleted of imponderables to offer up.  Richard Nixon is a gift to historians because he doesn't make sense, and CRYSTAL SKULL is the Nixon of sequels.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 09-11-2019

But there does come a point where you're merely rehashing the same complaints over and over again, yeah? Is there anything new that is ever brought up for consideration regarding the film or is it all out there by now?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

I dunno.  But as someone who stays out of STAR WARS, Marvel and DC threads because none of those franchises interest me, I have decided I am entitled to go hog wild with Indy wankery, no matter how redundant.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Stale Elvis - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 12:49 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: TPM > KOTCS

*mic drop*

No arguments here.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

I probably agree, but my situation is weird because I was kind of already over STAR WARS by the time THE PHANTOM MENACE came out. I remember thinking it was fine and didn't give it much thought beyond that, other than respecting that it laid the foundation for a great Weird Al song.  I didn't see the other two prequels in the theater, not because MENACE disillusioned me in any particular way but because I sort of checked out of the universe by then anyway.  So I don't have the baggage there I have with INDY.

I contend CRYSTAL SKULL would have been far less disappointing if it was an aggressive bad movie.  A big swing and a miss.  The low-level apathy of what we got was kind of dumbfounding in a strange, insulting way.  A bad Indiana Jones movie should be bad with some goddamn zest. There are way more excuses for a bad Indy adventure than a dull one.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 01:47 PM)fatherdude Wrote: I contend CRYSTAL SKULL would have been far less disappointing if it was an aggressive bad movie.  A big swing and a miss.  The low-level apathy of what we got was kind of dumbfounding in a strange, insulting way.  A bad Indiana Jones movie should be bad with some goddamn zest.  There are way more excuses for a bad Indy adventure than a dull one.

KotCS feels like a film that exactly one person wanted to make and everyone else just took one for the team and said 'sure, why not.'  There's no real enthusiasm on display from anyone.  The direction is competent and the acting is reasonable (if unremarkable) from everyone.  You put forth passable effort, you're gonna get a passable film if you're good at your job.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 01:09 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: But there does come a point where you're merely rehashing the same complaints over and over again, yeah?  Is there anything new that is ever brought up for consideration regarding the film or is it all out there by now?

The reason why the Indy IV discussion died down relatively quickly is because neither side started attacking the other's personal attributes due to them liking, or not liking, the movie.  

I often wonder if the people who wrote Indy IV had ever really sat down and dissected the prior Indy scripts as to what makes an Indy film (you would think Lucas or Spielberg would at least have some inkling). Here's some issues the writers of Indy IV get fundamentally wrong in terms of writing "an Indy movie," off the top of my head:

1.)The opening scene is not supposed to be connected to the main plot.

2.)Indy does NOT cooperate with the enemy.  In fact, it is a defining aspect of his character that he refuses to cooperate even when, at least, FEIGNING cooperation, would arguably be the more rational approach.

3.)Indy is not passive.  He leads the adventure and does not merely retrace someone's steps or copy another's actions.

4.)While Indy often benefits from, or takes advantage of, opportunities presented during action sequences, as a general rule he does NOT succeed by blind luck or deus ex machinas.  He kills people, his antagonists do not just fortuitously get eliminated by random chance.

5.)There is ALWAYS a push/pull dynamic with Indy's love interests that DIRECTLY affects how the events of the plot unfold.  They don't just get carried along.  Let me also note that the death of the gal who wrote Romancing the Stone at such a young age was a tremendous loss for Hollywood, as she clearly got it.  

6.)The villains DIRECTLY get their comeuppance by not respecting an ancient tradition, while Indiana survives by not only respecting it, but by learning something from it.  

7.)Indiana, at some point, has to choose between The Quest™ and Human Life™.  And he chooses wisely, while the villains always choose poorly.  


These are ALL concepts that people who wrote video games in the 80s and 90s understood, but somehow the writers of Indy IV utterly and completely failed to grasp.  

This is in addition to the numerous technical problems, like the film not looking anything like the first three, the lazy and ineffective use of CGI, the obvious non-location shooting, and some really terribly conceived action sequences.  

**I would note that I thought Shia was fine.  The script is the problem, not him. 

****I think the motorcycle chase sequence is the only part of the film I unreservedly like.  I revisit it fairly regularly.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 09-11-2019

Those are valid complaints. However, you're also pointing out the fact that the Indy films had a formula, and TFA shows what happens when you try and follow a formula after a long break: it's stale.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - commodorejohn - 09-11-2019

TFA, though, is what happens when you blindly and half-assedly follow a formula without actually understanding how it works or why, not necessarily an indictment of the formula itself. Which is no great surprise when the perpetrator is J.J. Abrams - but a lot harder to explain when the person responsible is Steven Freakin' Spielberg.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 02:24 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: TFA, though, is what happens when you blindly and half-assedly follow a formula without actually understanding how it works or why. Which is no great surprise when the perpetrator is J.J. Abrams - but a lot harder to explain when the person responsible is Steven Freakin' Spielberg.

and that's just it...Spielberg didn't follow the formula.  Unfortunately, the new stuff that was brought to the table wasn't particularly compelling.  The biggest sin for me is in making Indy a passive participant rather than an instigator.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 12:18 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 12:03 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: Yep.  While it's the weakest of the 4 films, it's also not the worst movie ever made.  It's over-hated.

With only a few tweaks, CRYSTAL SKULL could have been very good.

1.  Consolidate the number of characters.  Mac would be a good candidate to drop.
2.  Make Indy more proactive (or at least more conflicted) during the middle section, where he seems to have no problem helping the Commies.
3.  Ditch the "Indy's a suspected Soviet agent" angle because it is entirely useless to the plot.
4.  Hire a different director of photography.
5.  Don't allow ILM to field test a new digital foliage program during the biggest setpiece in what is supposed to be a throwback action-adventure film.
6.  Let Indy to kill people.
7.  Eliminate digital animals, except for the necessary ants.

those aren’t ONLY A FEW TWEAKS!!

those are heavy!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

I think Boam's last draft of the SAUCERMAN script (unavailable) was the movie Lucas really wanted to make, while Darabont's last draft of THE CITY OF THE GODS script was what Spielberg really wanted to make.  After each Beard rejected the other's preference, it became this weird negotiation between them that came to a "successful" conclusion once they were dissatisfied in equal measure.  I think at that stage the objective was less telling a good story than throwing enough agreed upon elements from previous stories into a pot so that dinner could be fucking served already. 

Which would explain how you have material that feels rushed despite being the product of 19 years, and why Koepp's script reads as such a dispassionate patchwork.  You read Darabont's and Koepp's work back to back and it's night and day in terms of flavor and the sense that there was a person writing this who was really enthusiastic about getting to design an Indiana Jones movie.  It is palpable.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-11-2019

I really want to read Nathanson's draft, which came after Darabont but before Koepp, and he retains a "Story by" credit.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 02:19 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: Those are valid complaints.  However, you're also pointing out the fact that the Indy films had a formula, and TFA shows what happens when you try and follow a formula after a long break: it's stale.

I may be the wrong person to make that argument to, as I was 80-90% satisfied with TFA ... until TLJ came along and retroactively made huge chunks of TFA either redundant, unnecessary, or nonsensically incoherent in light of subsequent events.

There's an argument to be made that many of the dangling threads of TFA could NOT be made coherent by subsequent films and that all I was doing was delaying inevitable disappointment ... I am willing to accept that may very well be the case.



Even though it was CRAZY over the top in places and would likely have to be scaled back (mechanical arm on the bad guy?) my favorite of the rejected Indy scripts by far was Columbus's "Monkey King" draft. The one that leaked, anyway. I like that it broke new ground in terms of location, I thought it had a pretty clever prologue and hook, it should have been made.

Darabont's script had some decent parts, but frankly, I didn't like it. The fact that he spent a year on that story ... woo boy.

**I also didn't like what I heard about Saucermen from Mars. Hated the Excalibur one (which may have been a fan script, I can't remember).

****Probably the best fourth Indy idea was the one that got turned into a game, Fate of Atlantis. Barwood nailed it on that one.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 02:33 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: I really want to read Nathanson's draft, which came after Darabont but before Koepp, and he retains a "Story by" credit.

It would be fascinating to see how much it bridges GODS and SKULL.  Was the Nathanson incarnation the one that debuted Spalko?  Mutt?  Was this when they decided to put an alien mummy right in the teaser?  I would say that Darabont embraced the 50s B-movie angle with aplomb, but his approach to the aliens preserved a lot more mystery than the final product, so perhaps that was a sticking point.

Overlord: The Excalibur script is a fake. The Saucerman draft by Jeb Stuart is real, but a work in progress. Lucas only considered that script ready after he turned to Boam and did three more drafts with him. Monkey King was a rejected script for the third movie rather than the fourth, which was always about aliens -- Lucas never considered that negotiable. Your position on FATE OF ATLANTIS is unimpeachable.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Judas Booth - 09-11-2019

It's the opinion of almost everyone that FATE OF ATLANTIS would have been a great movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 02:51 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: It's the opinion of almost everyone that FATE OF ATLANTIS would have been a great movie.

I agree with nooj that they should recast Pratt as Indiana Jones and just do Fate of Atlantis as a huge-budget streaming show, assuming they don't want to do a theatrical release.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 09-11-2019

!!!!!!!

Kyle Chandler, dammit!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - atomtastic - 09-11-2019

in gru ber


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Nooj - 09-11-2019

I’d like to see him try!

how old is Indy supposed to be in FATE OF ATLANTIS?

he always struck me as being a bit older due to Doug Lee’s VO performance as well as the amount of references to Indy’s past in the game


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 12:18 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 12:03 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: Yep.  While it's the weakest of the 4 films, it's also not the worst movie ever made.  It's over-hated.

With only a few tweaks, CRYSTAL SKULL could have been very good.

1.  Consolidate the number of characters.  Mac would be a good candidate to drop.
2.  Make Indy more proactive (or at least more conflicted) during the middle section, where he seems to have no problem helping the Commies.
3.  Ditch the "Indy's a suspected Soviet agent" angle because it is entirely useless to the plot.
4.  Hire a different director of photography.
5.  Don't allow ILM to field test a new digital foliage program during the biggest setpiece in what is supposed to be a throwback action-adventure film.
6.  Let Indy to kill people.
7.  Eliminate digital animals, except for the necessary ants.

8. Have Indy emptying the Russians' shells to find the Skull actually lead to a gag with the Russians being out of ammo.  It's such an obvious Indy moment I can't believe they didn't go with it.

(09-11-2019, 02:08 PM)Overlord Wrote: Let me also note that the death of the gal who wrote Romancing the Stone at such a young age was a tremendous loss for Hollywood, as she clearly got it.  

I keep catching Romancing the Stone on cable and I can never not watch it, no matter where in the film I jump in.  You could say that the almost alchemical chemistry between Douglas and Stone does a lot of the heavy lifting, but it really is such a finely crafted adventure tale.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 03:13 PM)Richard Dickson Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 02:08 PM)Overlord Wrote: Let me also note that the death of the gal who wrote Romancing the Stone at such a young age was a tremendous loss for Hollywood, as she clearly got it.  

I keep catching Romancing the Stone on cable and I can never not watch it, no matter where in the film I jump in.  You could say that the almost alchemical chemistry between Douglas and Stone does a lot of the heavy lifting, but it really is such a finely crafted adventure tale.

It's such a phenomenal movie.  The writing is just so goddamned on-point.

I haven't seen the sequel since 1990ish, but I remember being dreadfully, horribly disappointed with it.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 09-11-2019

In regards to FATE OF ATLANTIS, I just want to point out that I had a letter published in the letter column of the Dark Horse adaptation way back when. And before that, I had a letter published in DUCKTALES Magazine when I was a wee lad.

THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF MISFIT will be a fascinating, if brief, publication after I'm gone.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 03:57 PM)Misfit Wrote: In regards to FATE OF ATLANTIS, I just want to point out that I had a letter published in the letter column of the Dark Horse adaptation way back when. And before that, I had a letter published in DUCKTALES Magazine when I was a wee lad.

THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF MISFIT will be a fascinating, if brief, publication after I'm gone.

You know you kept either the letters or the editions. 

Pics.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 03:10 PM)Nooj Wrote: I’d like to see him try!

how old is Indy supposed to be in FATE OF ATLANTIS?

he always struck me as being a bit older due to Doug Lee’s VO performance as well as the amount of references to Indy’s past in the game

The game is set in 1939 - one year after LAST CRUSADE.  

Here is some arcane trivia: In the game Indy is teaching at "Barnett College" (as he was in CRUSADE) rather than "Marshall College" (as in RAIDERS).  I assume there was a simple behind the scenes reason that they had to shoot at a different university, and thus invent a different name to explain the disparity, when CRUSADE was being made.  

But it is interesting the way the team of ATLANTIS paid enough attention to detail to respect that tiny bit of continuity, whereas with CRYSTAL SKULL we are back at Marshall College, presumably so that they could just paste in the exact establishing shot from RAIDERS.  And it is the exact same shot, digitally manipulated to replaced period 30s cars with period 50s cars.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Misfit - 09-11-2019

[attachment=3474]
(09-11-2019, 03:59 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(09-11-2019, 03:57 PM)Misfit Wrote: In regards to FATE OF ATLANTIS, I just want to point out that I had a letter published in the letter column of the Dark Horse adaptation way back when. And before that, I had a letter published in DUCKTALES Magazine when I was a wee lad.

THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF MISFIT will be a fascinating, if brief, publication after I'm gone.

You know you kept either the letters or the editions. 

Pics.

ATLANTIS is somewhere at my parents' house.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

[Image: giphy.gif]


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Jones - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 03:30 PM)Overlord Wrote: I haven't seen the sequel since 1990ish, but I remember being dreadfully, horribly disappointed with it.

Oh no, I can't agree with that.  It's not at that same level of grit Romancing is at, but it's a fine sequel and a great fun adventure in it's own right.

Enjoyed KotCS for what it was (really liked how Indy was acting like a teacher throughout), but like most can't help but continue wishing for another Raiders.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Stale Elvis - 09-11-2019

All this talk about Romancing the Stone and Jewel of the Nile makes me wish we got more of those movies. The chemistry between Douglas and Turner was great, but the real star of the show was DeVito - he is sooooo good in these. So quickfire. So scrappy.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-11-2019

It's cool how it worked out because the role of Sallah in RAIDERS was originally intended for DeVito, but he couldn't do it.  So in the end we got Rhys-Davies as Sallah and we got DeVito in ROMANCING THE STONE and JEWEL OF THE NILE. It's still painful, though, to imagine what the latter could have been had Diane Thomas been involved from the beginning. According to Kathleen Turner it was because she "was tied up writing a movie for Steven Spielberg."


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-11-2019

(09-11-2019, 07:51 PM)fatherdude Wrote: It's cool how it worked out because the role of Sallah in RAIDERS was originally intended for DeVito, but he couldn't do it.  So in the end we got Rhys-Davies as Sallah and we got DeVito in ROMANCING THE STONE and JEWEL OF THE NILE.  It's still painful, though, to imagine what the latter could have been had Diane Thomas been involved from the beginning.  According to Kathleen Turner it was because she "was tied up writing a movie for Steven Spielberg."

That movie was Always.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diane_Thomas


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-12-2019

Spielberg must have fridged that script for a time, then, because ALWAYS ended up produced years after Thomas's death.  Really a shame to think of how brutally short that promising career was cut.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Paul C - 09-12-2019

According to Wiki Douglas was developing a third Romancing movie called Racing The Monsoon as recently as the mid-00's. Kind of a shame it didn't happen if only because there's something awkward about a series like that sputtering out after just two movies.


I distinctly remember once seeing a thinly veiled rip off of Romancing The Stone starring the great Bruce Boxleitner. Any ideas what that might've been?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-12-2019

Don't know about that one.  I know that there was an initial concept for a third film called THE CRIMSON EAGLE, but that was scrapped after JEWEL was a critical disappointment.

It's actually kind of quaint, to think that a franchise that was still strong at the box office (JEWEL outgrossed its predecessor) would be abandoned over quality concerns.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Paul C - 09-12-2019

After some poking around, I think the Bruce Boxleitner one may have been Angel In Green, though from the description aside from being a romantic adventure in an exotic location it's not actually that similar. It has an impressive lack of presence on the internet, this Polish trailer is about the best I could find. A lost masterpiece...