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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Printable Version

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RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-20-2019

THE BFG was his biggest underperformer of the past decade. Funnily, LINCOLN was a bigger hit than READY PLAYER ONE.

So, what was his last bonafide megahit?... CRYSTAL SKULL. It's currently his third highest grossing film under JURASSIC PARK and E.T...


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-20-2019

Ready Player One was my favorite non-serious mode Spielberg film since War of the Worlds. Or maybe even Minority Report. I fucking LOVED it. I need to see the BFG..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-20-2019

I haven't seen TINTIN since theaters, but I remember feeling it made a much better adventure film than CRYSTAL SKULL.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-20-2019

I'm so happy that I came around on Crystal Skull as much as I did. It's still the least of the four but I didn't like hating an Indy movie..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - noirheaven - 09-20-2019

(09-20-2019, 04:53 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I don't blame Koepp too much for KTOCS because his task was trying to create a Frankenstein's monster of a script by combing many different elements from totally different drafts and at the same time trying to get approval from Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford who all had different ideas of what an Indy film should be but Lucas was top dog, which is why it took over 12 years to get that film made.

There's another factor. When Spielberg made the first two Indy films he had different sensibilities. I think any of us would think it's pretty easy write an Indy film. Just make it a cracking adventure film with a cool fantastical/historical artifact. Right? However, I think starting with THE LAST CRUSADE, that was never enough for Spielberg. To him, it can't just be yet another adventure for Indy. He had to have a more personal and emotional story to those films, which is why you get familial stuff with Henry Jones Sr. and Mutt Williams. From then on that's been Spielberg's hook, and I suspect that's what had delayed the latter films. It can't just have a well written plot, it needs to have a moving story.

Bond films have been going through this phase as well recently with Craig, though at least EON just needs to hire new directors instead of appealing to one legend like Spielberg.

You are correct, and I distinctly remember Spielberg saying around 2006/2007 when INDY 4 was finally off the ground and being launched in true preproduction that he was looking to make INDY 4 the "Indiana Jones Robin and Marian"--a  film that would deeply probe the sadness of Indy in being reunited with his lost love, Marion Ravenwood. That was the film Spielberg was aiming for at the time, reportedly, with the son figure of Mutt representing all that Indy had lost in being an adventurous hero. Kind of like ancient Greek tales concerning Hercules and other foolhardy heroes who in their mythical derring-do were irresponsible in missing out on living with their families. As I read this I kept stroking my chin and seeing that Spielberg wanted to balance all of this pathos and drama with a fun adventure, and thought that it would be Spielberg operating in a particularly ambitious mode.

But something obviously happened. Not only was the final screenplay a Frankenstein's monster of mutilated ideas but the finished film was in many ways, too, and it seemed to engender something lukewarm and ostensibly apathetic rather than boldly bad as fatherdude rightly notes in this thread.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-20-2019

(09-20-2019, 07:02 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I'm so happy that I came around on Crystal Skull as much as I did. It's still the least of the four but I didn't like hating an Indy movie..

Yeah, I've never hated it either. I always knew it was one of Spielberg's weaker entries, but the backlash online I felt was over the top in my opinion.


(09-20-2019, 07:06 PM)noirheaven Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 04:53 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I don't blame Koepp too much for KTOCS because his task was trying to create a Frankenstein's monster of a script by combing many different elements from totally different drafts and at the same time trying to get approval from Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford who all had different ideas of what an Indy film should be but Lucas was top dog, which is why it took over 12 years to get that film made.

There's another factor. When Spielberg made the first two Indy films he had different sensibilities. I think any of us would think it's pretty easy write an Indy film. Just make it a cracking adventure film with a cool fantastical/historical artifact. Right? However, I think starting with THE LAST CRUSADE, that was never enough for Spielberg. To him, it can't just be yet another adventure for Indy. He had to have a more personal and emotional story to those films, which is why you get familial stuff with Henry Jones Sr. and Mutt Williams. From then on that's been Spielberg's hook, and I suspect that's what had delayed the latter films. It can't just have a well written plot, it needs to have a moving story.

Bond films have been going through this phase as well recently with Craig, though at least EON just needs to hire new directors instead of appealing to one legend like Spielberg.

You are correct, and I distinctly remember Spielberg saying around 2006/2007 when INDY 4 was finally off the ground and being launched in true preproduction that he was looking to make INDY 4 the "Indiana Jones Robin and Marian"--a film that would deeply probe the sadness of Indy in being reunited with his lost love, Marion Ravenwood. That was the film Spielberg was aiming for at the time, reportedly, with the son figure of Mutt representing all that Indy had lost in being an adventurous hero. Kind of like ancient Greek tales concerning Hercules and other foolhardy heroes who in their mythical derring-do were irresponsible in missing out on living with their families. As I read this I kept stroking my chin and seeing that Spielberg wanted to balance all of this pathos and drama with a fun adventure, and thought that it would be Spielberg operating in a particularly ambitious mode.

But something obviously happened. Not only was the final screenplay a Frankenstein's monster of mutilated ideas but the finished film was in many ways, too, and it seemed to engender something lukewarm and ostensibly apathetic rather than boldly bad as fatherdude rightly notes in this thread.

That makes a lot of sense that Spielberg would aim for that. ROBIN AND MARIAN, a film starring Connery, being the basis for an older Indy sounds like a strong hook. That clearly did not come through what we ultimately got.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 09-20-2019

I think Ready Player One, while a solid success, was Spielberg aiming at the zeitgeist in a bigger way. I think he was making a film to rival Avatar and the Marvel giants, a real barnstormer like he used to make in the 80s and 90s, show he still had it in him. So the film did well, but it didn’t dominate, either in box office or in cultural saturation.

I imagine (and I’m totally imagining, this is pure conjecture) he’s trying to see if he’s got another Jurassic Park in him. He hasn’t blown the competition away like he used to in quite some time.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-20-2019

I think because the latter half of his career has mostly consisted of more adult oriented projects that his name doesn't mean too much anymore when it comes to big blockbusters.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Richard Dickson - 09-20-2019

Plus there's a generation of movie-goers for whom Spielberg is a relic from the '80s. He's relevant in the historical sense, but not in the "must-see" sense.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-20-2019

A good start would be saving Januz Kaminski for only his serious movies..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Overlord - 09-20-2019

Maybe he's made a lot of movies that aren't particularly entertaining over the past 15ish years.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - carnotaur3 - 09-20-2019

Who else could shoot an Indy picture? Like really make it a Slocombe stamp of approval?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-20-2019

John Seale could I'd bet..

....or Phil Meheux..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-20-2019

Roger Deakins?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-21-2019

Seemed too obvious. I was thinking of people who shot movies that have that golden glow that Raiders has.

But yeah...I wouldn't turn Deakins down lol..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-21-2019

Robert Richardson. Old pro, knows how to evoke a throwback style.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hammerhead - 09-21-2019

(09-21-2019, 12:31 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: Robert Richardson.  Old pro, knows how to evoke a throwback style.

I'd watch that.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-21-2019

Right? I think he'd be a great fit.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - noirheaven - 09-21-2019

(09-20-2019, 07:17 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 07:02 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I'm so happy that I came around on Crystal Skull as much as I did. It's still the least of the four but I didn't like hating an Indy movie..

Yeah, I've never hated it either. I always knew it was one of Spielberg's weaker entries, but the backlash online I felt was over the top in my opinion.


(09-20-2019, 07:06 PM)noirheaven Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 04:53 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I don't blame Koepp too much for KTOCS because his task was trying to create a Frankenstein's monster of a script by combing many different elements from totally different drafts and at the same time trying to get approval from Lucas, Spielberg, and Ford who all had different ideas of what an Indy film should be but Lucas was top dog, which is why it took over 12 years to get that film made.

There's another factor. When Spielberg made the first two Indy films he had different sensibilities. I think any of us would think it's pretty easy write an Indy film. Just make it a cracking adventure film with a cool fantastical/historical artifact. Right? However, I think starting with THE LAST CRUSADE, that was never enough for Spielberg. To him, it can't just be yet another adventure for Indy. He had to have a more personal and emotional story to those films, which is why you get familial stuff with Henry Jones Sr. and Mutt Williams. From then on that's been Spielberg's hook, and I suspect that's what had delayed the latter films. It can't just have a well written plot, it needs to have a moving story.

Bond films have been going through this phase as well recently with Craig, though at least EON just needs to hire new directors instead of appealing to one legend like Spielberg.

You are correct, and I distinctly remember Spielberg saying around 2006/2007 when INDY 4 was finally off the ground and being launched in true preproduction that he was looking to make INDY 4 the "Indiana Jones Robin and Marian"--a  film that would deeply probe the sadness of Indy in being reunited with his lost love, Marion Ravenwood. That was the film Spielberg was aiming for at the time, reportedly, with the son figure of Mutt representing all that Indy had lost in being an adventurous hero. Kind of like ancient Greek tales concerning Hercules and other foolhardy heroes who in their mythical derring-do were irresponsible in missing out on living with their families. As I read this I kept stroking my chin and seeing that Spielberg wanted to balance all of this pathos and drama with a fun adventure, and thought that it would be Spielberg operating in a particularly ambitious mode.

But something obviously happened. Not only was the final screenplay a Frankenstein's monster of mutilated ideas but the finished film was in many ways, too, and it seemed to engender something lukewarm and ostensibly apathetic rather than boldly bad as fatherdude rightly notes in this thread.

That makes a lot of sense that Spielberg would aim for that. ROBIN AND MARIAN, a film starring Connery, being the basis for an older Indy sounds like a strong hook. That clearly did not come through what we ultimately got.

In spite of seeing many of the same flaws that many attack the film for--including the excellently-recounted points Overlord went, um, over, in how Crystal Skull misses the proverbial boat--I agree that the movie is "overly-hated" as was said earlier in the thread by Judas Booth. It always feels like half of the movie that I was hoping for (pretty much gradually running out of fuel by the one-hour mark onward with some questionable decisions before that point, too), and I still concur with some of the defenses of the film even if it's obviously a minor work from Spielberg. That he spoke of a "Robin and Marian Indiana Jones" adventure, stung and shot through with sadness, and considering it had the common Spielbergian element of an absent father being confronted by his son, it's fairly remarkable that he seems so absent for so much of it. 

I like Belloq's idea of Robert Richardson for DP for an INDY 5. 

I want to believe (/Fox Mulder) that Kaminski can redeem himself. Something about that witches brew of Lucas, Spielberg, Koepp, the old, battered patchwork screenplay, it all just seemed to make for something off the mark from what people were hoping to get from the picture. Ironically (?), I thought at the time and still do that of all the elements picked apart, grumpy old Harrison Ford brought his A-game to it and the problems the film has are not at all rooted in either him or his age. Granted, the screenplay has him doing a lot of not-so-hot things, but the performance isolated from all of that is good. Even Indy-as-tracer-of-another's-adventure works vastly better than it ought to thanks to Ford putting himself into it. Which was something he rarely did by the mid-2000s.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fatherdude - 09-21-2019

Surely the Darabont version, which put the Indy/Marion relationship front-and-center, is the only one that could be said to approach a ROBIN AND MARIAN vibe.  My understanding is Darabont is the one who brought Marion back, and Spielberg liked it so much that he insisted her character be retained in all subsequent scripts.  But the Marion in CRYSTAL SKULL is written rather differently, and used rather differently, than the one in CITY OF THE GODS. For all their shared elements, those scripts are telling very different stories.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Paul755 - 09-21-2019

(09-20-2019, 04:53 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Bond films have been going through this phase as well recently with Craig, though at least EON just needs to hire new directors instead of appealing to one legend like Spielberg.

I still think Spielberg could make a great Bond movie.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-22-2019

I wish he was doing something other than a West Side Story remake. I don't think I've ever had a Spielberg movie interest me less. But that's just me..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-22-2019

Yeah. I probably wouldn’t have minded him doing that 18 years ago, but now in his 70s it feels like a waste of whatever potential he has left before he’s no longer active.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - arjen rudd - 09-22-2019

He’s always wanted to!


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - hp pufncraft - 09-22-2019

Wasn't HOOK originally meant to be a musical?


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Dent6084 - 09-22-2019

(09-22-2019, 03:42 PM)hp pufncraft Wrote: Wasn't HOOK originally meant to be a musical?

Yes, and at some point in development 1941 was too, IIRC.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-22-2019

(09-22-2019, 03:42 PM)hp pufncraft Wrote: Wasn't HOOK originally meant to be a musical?

HOOK even got as far as early principal photography before the full-on musical approach was, basically, abandoned (with a few things carrying over, like Peter's daughter singing "When You're Alone").

Supposedly all the songs were recorded (at least in demo/playback form).


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-22-2019

That was for the best. Yeeesh..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-22-2019

I mean, I'd love to hear the songs, at the very least. The melodies are all over the place in John Williams' final score, and they're terrific.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-22-2019

My understanding has always been that it was supposed to be a STAGE musical, but years after it was abandoned it was re-calibrated as a feature film.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-22-2019

It still looks like a stage production in a lot of spots. It and Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes vie for the crown of having the most artificial looking sets of any movie I've ever seen. Neverland looks like it's about as big as a high school gym..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - mr. stockslivevan - 09-22-2019

Funnily it cost more than either the films that bookend it, THE LAST CRUSADE and JURASSIC PARK.

I think it's a pretty great film in its opening 30 minutes, just before he gets carried off to Neverland. From then on it just feels like an overlong mess made by a child who found access to buckets of paint and smeared it all over the garage.

I found this quote by Spielberg from last year, and it kind of sums it up for me:

Quote:"I felt like a fish out of water making Hook... I didn't have confidence in the script. I had confidence in the first act and I had confidence in the epilogue. I didn't have confidence in the body of it." He added, "I didn't quite know what I was doing and I tried to paint over my insecurity with production value," admitting "the more insecure I felt about it, the bigger and more colorful the sets became."



RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-22-2019

Hook costing more than Indiana Jones or Jurassic Park does not compute. Until you realize that a lot of the most expensive movies ever look pretty ratty. X-Men The Last Stand? Justice League?? And that piece of crap POTC On Stranger Tides I think is STILL the most expensive movie ever..


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - Belloq87 - 09-22-2019

(09-22-2019, 05:46 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: My understanding has always been that it was supposed to be a STAGE musical, but years after it was abandoned it was re-calibrated as a feature film.

Spielberg was working on a proper PETER PAN musical in the mid-1980s, but that didn't go anywhere. Supposedly some of the songs John Williams and Leslie Bricusse supplied for HOOK originated there.

But HOOK itself was meant to be a feature film musical... until it wasn't.


RE: INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion - fraid uh noman - 09-22-2019

It totally looks like a musical without being one and there are definitely traces of that left over. I never would've thought of that without being told though..