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Damon Lindelof's WATCHMEN, Coming to HBO
Maybe not jumping up and down, but he did revel in it.

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My karmic debt must be huge.

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(12-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Richard Dickson Wrote: Maybe not jumping up and down, but he did revel in it.

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Right.  And you can make the argument that in that moment, Veidt revealed himself to be what he actually was--kind of a monster.
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(12-05-2019, 11:02 AM)ska oreo Wrote:
(12-04-2019, 08:12 PM)schwartz Wrote:
(12-04-2019, 03:51 PM)ska oreo Wrote: Also violently disagree with your opinion on Irons’ performance.  That’s absolutely the same man who, 35 years ago, jumped up and down in glee at having “saved” the world.

He didn't actually jump up and down, and it was fundamental to that character that he still needed to ask for reassurance from the only other intellect he truly respected that he had done the right thing and at least tell himself that he had made himself "feel every death".  He was capable of being ruthless, obviously, but he would never treat killing with the glee or petulance with which Irons slaughters the clones.

He was also rather scrupulous about affording his enemies respect.  He took insults from Rorschach and his early loss to the Comedian in stride, never rising to their insults and only moving against them when they threatened to expose his plan.  He wouldn't fart at them, no matter how far beneath himself he thought them to be.  The Ozymandias who gave away a fortune just to challenge himself and spent decades coolly assessing and methodically conquering the threat of mutually assured destruction would likely find escaping his space prison and the Warden to be stimulating problems to solve, rather than whine and rant at them like Cobra Commander.
But again, you'd only have a point if we were talking about the "same" Ozymandias right from when Watchmen the comic ended.  I absolutely buy that, as desperation set in, that Veidt became more callous and less empathetic--less empathetic for a man willing to drop a nuclear bomb on an American city.  People change depending on the circumstances: sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worst.
You just said it was "the same" guy who reacted a certain way in the comic!

Really, I feel like you are arguing points that are just off center from what the other is saying.  I have repeatedly said that my issue with the shift in characterization is not that I don't believe that Nu-Veidt could developed out of Old-Veidt, it's that I think Nu-Veidt is more simplistic and less interesting than Old-Veidt.    

The more we go around on that particular point, the more it feels like this.
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Apparently there's a post credits scene this week. My guess is that it's Veidt joining the current time line.
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(12-05-2019, 11:57 AM)ska oreo Wrote:
(12-05-2019, 11:41 AM)Richard Dickson Wrote: Maybe not jumping up and down, but he did revel in it.

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Right.  And you can make the argument that in that moment, Veidt revealed himself to be what he actually was--kind of a monster.

I think that actual moment came earlier.

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(12-05-2019, 01:22 PM)ChrisW Wrote: Apparently there's a post credits scene this week.  My guess is that it's Veidt joining the current time line.
Yeah, I’d assume Veidt has to come into the main story by the final episode.
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Tore through all of the episodes the last couple of days, and like the show, my thoughts are all over the place. Loved the pilot, then eps 2-3 gave me that MR. ROBOT / LEGION vibe, where the show is so intent on blowing my mind that it forgot to get me to care. Then, I thought eps 4-6 were GREAT, and Ep 7 was very good. Binging the show made the end of 7 feel less like a Lindelofian cheat, but I could see why folks feel that way.

Lindelof's fractured "I'll tell you later" style gets on my nerves, but I really like the show in spite of itself. Also, the show looks expensive as hell! All of the money is on the screen.
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I feel like Watchmen is a show I can't wait to rewatch once it finished its run. Cause I have a feeling that there are things that I missed in those first couple of episodes, that will seem so obvious having watched the entire season.
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It made me want to buy a new copy of the original Watchmen as well. I had forgotten that Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis had a relationship in the original, so that cut to them having sex felt incredibly abrupt. I had to double-check Google to confirm that happened. My wife never read the original Watchmen, so she's occasionally confused, but the story's remained consistently compelling.

Has it been confirmed that this will last more than one season?
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(12-06-2019, 11:45 AM)Mangy Wrote: It made me want to buy a new copy of the original Watchmen as well. I had forgotten that Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis had a relationship in the original, so that cut to them having sex felt incredibly abrupt. I had to double-check Google to confirm that happened. My wife never read the original Watchmen, so she's occasionally confused, but the story's remained consistently compelling.

Has it been confirmed that this will last more than one season?

They've been skirting around that issue.  Lindelof hasn't said there won't be a 2nd season, but it sounds like he made this with a single season in mind.  

If anything, Lindelof probably won't be back as showrunner if Watchmen does get a second season.
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Yeah, Lindelof has clearly said that he meant this story to be concluded in a single season....but didn't rule out additional seasons, with other (though presumably related) stories.

My guess is that unless HBO backs up a Brinks truck, he'd be an exec producer and essentially not involved with subsequent seasons.
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(12-06-2019, 12:16 PM)MichaelM Wrote: Yeah, Lindelof has clearly said that he meant this story to be concluded in a single season....but didn't rule out additional seasons, with other (though presumably related) stories.

My guess is that unless HBO backs up a Brinks truck, he'd be an exec producer and essentially not involved with subsequent seasons.

Or he’ll parlay this into big money to develop his next project.
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If the show is only meant to last one season then the structure is extremely wonky. This feels like the beginning of a 5 season journey, not the end of a singular story, especially considering the amount of flashbacks and detours.
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Don't agree. What's been revealed in the last couple of episodes is that everything is pointing towards one event (Trieu's reference to "three days from now" and Keene's needing to take Angela "off the board for a couple of days." There's a very definite endpoint/goal in mind, and everything we're getting is to give us the necessary context for the full impact of what's going down then.
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Oh I see an endpoint, but to me it feels like the end of a season or chapter. Setup for something greater.
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(12-08-2019, 06:12 PM)Evi Wrote: Oh I see an endpoint, but to me it feels like the end of a season or chapter. Setup for something greater.

Well it kinda has to act as both, doesn't it?  A satisfying conclusion in case there's only one season, possible threads if there's more than one.
My karmic debt must be huge.

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Honestly, the plotting is so opaque that it’s hard to tell if things are just getting started or coming to a head in the main plot. 

The one area where it definitely feels like it can’t be one season and done is the Veidt stuff. While I have no idea how things will pan out, it seems impossible that any contribution he could make in the final episode, if indeed that is all there is, that would render the dicking around with him in isolation for the previous 8 hours feel justified or necessary.
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Just caught up with this...

Veidt is definitely in the statue. His scenes on Europa have taken place over many years. We see at least 2 or 3 different cakes, and his trial lasted a year. So he spends years getting to the point of making an SOS message to his daughter, then he is put on trial, found guilty and turned into a statue. Then either his warden shoots him towards Earth, or his daughter devises a way to do so. Then she buys the farm where the statue will fall, collects her dad, and will use the Manhattan/Clock plan to reanimate him. She wants both parents to witness her triumph so badly she Dr. Venture'd her own mom, after all!

And I do agree that just freeing Veidt seems too small his role in the season, and especially to be her end game. It seems unlikely that she's simply trying to help save Manhattan. She seemed to pretty clearly know he was Cal when Angela took off, and just before that she gave a little speech about people begging him for help but he doesn't listen. Couple that with her likely true claim to be trying to "save humanity", and my guess would be that she's got at least half of the same plan as the Cavalry: Kill Dr Manhattan, so people stop begging him for help and start helping themselves and each other.

Good stuff so far. I'm curious to see how big the viewership is for the season as a whole, as I'd imagine this would be a tough watch for people w/ no familiarity w/ the source. I never read the comics, saw the film once and read a bit on the differences between the two... but that was barely enough prologue to keep the early episodes from being a confusing mess. I wonder how many people got their first taste of Watchmen 7 weeks ago, saw raining squid, and just, "Nope"-d out.
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welp. Let's see if he's stuck the landing.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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"It's important...for later." BLEEUUUUUGGGHHHHHH
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I will agree that last episode was a little wonky, but I was all in on this one.

Christ I could probably watch a legit romantic-comedy featuring Angela and Dr. Manhattan.  The whole meet-cute was pretty adorable, especially since Manhattan was clearly enjoying his time with Angela.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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HUGE SPOILERS for tonight's episode:


I ain't kidding.

They're coming.

Those spoilers.

HERE
WE
GO:

So WTF didn't Manhattan just blow all their heads off from inside the house? Why didn't he just fuck with a couple of critical components of the tachyon cannons to make them inoperable or malfunction?

I applaud the ingenuity on display at getting Manhattan to limit/forget himself for a duration, but I'm not buying that a bunch of racist fucks in pickup trucks somehow outthink Manhattan.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(12-08-2019, 11:28 PM)MichaelM Wrote: HUGE SPOILERS for tonight's episode:


I ain't kidding.

They're coming.

Those spoilers.

HERE
WE
GO:

So WTF didn't Manhattan just blow all their heads off from inside the house? Why didn't he just fuck with a couple of critical components of the tachyon cannons to make them inoperable or malfunction?

I applaud the ingenuity on display at getting Manhattan to limit/forget himself for a duration, but I'm not buying that a bunch of racist fucks in pickup trucks somehow outthink Manhattan.
I don't think they outthink him.  He's just a slave to time.  To him: It is what it is. Even his death.

Already know people are gonna snark about how "HE COULD HAVE JUST MOVED ONE STEP TO THE LEFT!!!"
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Well, I mean....he could have!
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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But would it have mattered, Michael? HMMMM!!! HMMM?!!!
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Sort of withholding final judgment until next week's episode. But the ending of tonight's episode was the first time I felt like Lindelof just wrote things Because TV Show.

I mean, if I can think of Jon doing those things without having to step directly in front of the tachyon cannon, then so could have the writers (and the fictional omnipotent and supragenius being).
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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He couldn't have moved. Because he already didn't move.

It's the same as the answer to a question from earlier about why Doc is connected to Angela... Because he already was.

Essentially, Manhattan is a slave to time. He lacks even the appearance of free will.

I just watched that whole episode thinking it was the finale. So you can imagine the range of reactions I went to from the cut to credits until the previews for next week.

I figured from last week's episode that this season would be about the death of Dr Manhattan, and it seems even more likely now. I'd also have to guess that he passes on his power to someone, since they were sure to let us know that he can.

Over/Under on the number of "Manhattans" around after next week is set at 0.5.

I'd take the over, and even further, I'll guess 2. I'm betting Veidt's daughter steals some power for herself (or dad), and Manhattan himself prepares for that outcome by feeding someone else some blue waffles. Meanwhile, things go Not Great for Bob!

Note that when it comes to predictions, I'm Doctor Anti-Manhattan, so this is the only outcome that can't happen. Because it didn't happen.
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Before anything else...

Why did I not realize that was Ichabod Crane from Sleepy Hollow?!?!

Ok, carry on.

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(12-09-2019, 12:06 AM)doc happenin Wrote: Before anything else...

Why did I not realize that was Ichabod Crane from Sleepy Hollow?!?!

Ok, carry on.

Right. I only got that myself last week. Dude shaves and it’s like a totally different person.
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Your Christ analogy can't decide to lay waste to the centurions sent to take him to his crucifixion.

He did what he did to save Angela, not himself.
My karmic debt must be huge.

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I kind of hate turning Manhattan into a Christ figure, though. He's always been explicitly a deity, but not that one.
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I think Christians might be a tad upset if the only reason Christ returns is to get laid.
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Well, he's an all-powerful being who comes to Earth in mortal form with a message of love and who willingly goes to a seemingly predestined death. If it's not intentional, that's a hell of a subconscious the writer's room has.

But even if that's not the case, Jon allows it to happen because it's what happens. But does it happen because it's supposed to, or because he allows it? Or does he allow it because it's supposed to happen? The chicken and the egg...
My karmic debt must be huge.

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The world’s smartest man poses as little threat to him as its smartest termite. It’s smartest redneck, on the other hand...

Ugh. They fucked it. Such a shame.
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(12-09-2019, 09:14 AM)UltraAnxiety Wrote: The world’s smartest man poses as little threat to him as its smartest termite. It’s smartest redneck, on the other hand...

Ugh. They fucked it. Such a shame.

No they really didn't.

It's frustrating because IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FRUSTRATING.  Because if you're going to that perspective,

Then you can take Manhattan to task for not stopping The Comedian from shooting the woman back in Vietnam. For Manhattan, he already died. So there's no point in moving.

It's the whole reason why he gets lobotomized in the first place.


Quote:But even if that's not the case, Jon allows it to happen because it's what happens. But does it happen because it's supposed to, or because he allows it? Or does he allow it because it's supposed to happen? The chicken and the egg...
Good point.
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"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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