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The Star Trek Thread

Well Roddenberry pitched Star Trek originally as "Wagon Train in Space", and you can see the character archetypes with the TOS Trinity: Kirk is the John Wayne Frontiersman, Bones the Southern (Confederate noble) Gentleman, Spock the wise Indian.

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So Sulu is gay, something I'm surprised wasn't already canon. Husband AND daughter (same as in Generations, I'm guessing) to be in Beyond.

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That's good of them to do, and a far cry from Orci's...apprehensiveness...to do something similar.  It also fits in nicely with existing canon that I'd be happy if they retconned it for the Prime Universe.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
 

Curious to know the circumstances of Stocker's career. I don't think we've seen a member of Engineering/Security (red shirt) ranked higher than Commander before this. How does he make Commodore without command experience? (Navy guys, feel free to chime in). He did ask Sulu for a recommendation, but only when it was too late. Love Kirk's Corbomite callback.



I'll bite.



In the U.S. Navy, "commodore" is a job description - not a rank.  You can hold the rank of captain, for example, and serve as the commodore of a destroyer squadron.  You can be a two-star admiral and serve as commodore of an aircraft carrier strike group.  I'm not aware of any career path that would allow someone to become a commodore without having first commanded at least one of the types of units in the larger grouping.



I think that in Starfleet, "commodore" is the term used for 1-star admiral (In the Navy, that rank is "rear admiral lower half.").  The episode tells us that Commodore Stocker's going to command a shore installation and that he has no deep space experience.  This tells me that he's a line officer, but not a ship driver.  One can fill in the blanks with one's own imagination:  perhaps he made his bones in planetary defense or cyber warfare or some such.  To make commodore, he must have commanded something with distinction: just not a starship.

In the episode, of course, he makes two classic blunders.  He assumes a transferability of skills ("Hey, I'm a rock star in the XYZ community.  How hard could this be?"), and he fails to rely on the local talent.

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A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/115578/the-star-trek-thread/4850#post_4096298"]Well Roddenberry pitched Star Trek originally as "Wagon Train in Space", and you can see the character archetypes with the TOS Trinity: Kirk is the John Wayne Frontiersman, Bones the Southern (Confederate noble) Gentleman, Spock the wise Indian. 
[/quote]

And Picard was the Singing Cowboy.


[video]http://youtu.be/cK9dlmYvB-Y[/video]
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A[quote name="mondguy" url="/community/t/115578/the-star-trek-thread/4850_50#post_4096328"]That's good of them to do, and a far cry from Orci's...apprehensiveness...to do something similar.  It also fits in nicely with existing canon that I'd be happy if they retconned it for the Prime Universe.
[/quote]

Funny that no wife was ever mentioned in Prime Universe, so they could go that route and I'm totally cool with that. An ice tribute to Takei.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankCobretti View Post
 

I'll bite.



Knew I could count on you. Thanks!

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ASo, after watching the (slightly underwhelming) Maquis double header in season 2, I googled "fit Vulcans".

Instead of the finest buttoned down Louise Brooks lookalikes, I got a lot of photos of 2015 Kawasakis.

Be careful out there, chaps.
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ALogic dictates that you just google "Louise Brooks" and cut out the middleman.
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ABetter Maquis episodes came later, I won't spoil which ones.

I do love the scene with Quark lecturing that hot Vulcan lady on logic.
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A[quote name="Reasor" url="/community/t/115578/the-star-trek-thread/4850#post_4096695"]Logic dictates that you just google "Louise Brooks" and cut out the middleman.[/quote]

It is known.
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A"Wink of an Eye"

Pretty cool idea, though average for the most part. Do love the use of Dutch angles especially when transitioning between different time speeds.


"The Empath"

May be my favorite of the S3 episodes and among the strongest of the episodes about the trinity. In fact it's Kelley's favorite episode of TOS, I can see why. Bones has a great moments, like earnestly complimenting Spock's bedside manner as he's dying after sacrificing himself for Spock. Great music too. Also notable for being the last episode shot by Jerry Finnerman. Great use of minimalist sets and lighting to make a unique episode. The Vians are also pretty cool looking.


[Image: 480]


"Elaan of Troyius"

Taming of the Shrew IN SPACE. Pretty fun. I think TNG had the better episode when they revisited this concept with a few adjustments.

Any idea why this episode was held back so far? Can't be an f/x issue since "The Enterprise Incident" had those f/x in place and it aired first. Weird.


"Whom Gods Destroy"

Good: Yvonne Craig is hot.

Bad: Everything else.

This has a shred of a great idea for an episode that is unfortunately wasted in a cliche ridden installment. Every time Kirk meets a famous Strflert figure that is "required reading at the academy" things go wrong. Garth of Izar would make a great character if only written from a different angle and not played by an actor trying to outham the Shat (the Shat himself makes sure that docent happen). Spock doesn't fare well either. From what I'm told this is the episode where Nimoy "gave up". The declining quality of this show seems to be getting to him at this point.
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A"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield"

It's incredibly scary that this episode seems even more relevant now than the last time I watched it years ago. It's not particularly great, and the allegory is as subtle as a sledgehammer, but it's quite effective in its message of hate leading to nothing but total annihilation. Gorshin is a fantastic guest star, though his counterpart could have been played by an actor as compelling, but he's not bad. I'd like to show this to someone unfamiliar with Trek just to see how this plays to a non-Trekkie with its story. Would be fascinating.

"The Mark of Gideon"

I've been noticing the effects of the dwindling budget, but this is the most apparent so far. The whole concept of an exact duplicate of the Enterprise is so flimsy and makes no sense with the Gideons that it cripples whatever subject this episode is ultimately interested in. The overpopulation thing could make a great revisiting in a new Trek episode, especially since our planet's population has increased substantially since 1969. Oh yeah, and there's like so many instances of characters saying "exact replica of the Enterprise", I think there was one point where Spock said it, Scotty repeats it back, and then Spock repeats it all at once. I think even the people making this episode knew how absurd the whole idea was they had to point it out annoyingly.

"That Which Survives"

Feels like the series going through the motions. Nothing really happens except people being put in situations they have to work on, with Scotty spouting a lot of technobabble via reverse the polarity, but there's very little character work. This episode also proves that even with Nimoy playing Spock, bad writing can make the character look like an asshole. Maybe this is where he was no longer giving a shit too, but it's really quite a jolt to see Spock's character handled so horribly. Spock is supposed to be cool, not irritable.
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Got Star Trek as myth: Essays on Symbol and Archetype at the Final Frontier from the library. The introduction talks about the first essay, "STAR TREK as Myth and Television as Mythmaker" by William Blake Tyrrell, as being this monumental treatise in Trek history. I haven't read it yet but I'm excited. Anyone else read it?



Another essay I'm really interested in is "The Kirk doctrine: The Care and Repair of Archetypal Heroic Leadership in J.J Abrams' Star Trek", which is supposed to compare the movies attitude to the Bush administration.

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AI own three or four volumes of the _____ and Philosophy series of essays, and really enjoy the Star Trek one. The Hitchcock one is really good. The Science of Star Trek is similar. I will probably pick up Trek as Myth.
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AIn the middle of "The Lights of Zetar". I really hate this feeling of being bored watching a TOS episode. 30 mins in and nothing is really happening, and it's weird to hear music from the second pilot used extensively so far into the third season.

Also, if you're a female that Scotty falls in love with in an episode, you're doomed.
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A"The Lights of Zetar"

Even having watched the rest, there's nothing new for me to say of this one. It's just a dull episode. I'm sure I'll forget about this again, then come back to it years later thinking "huh, how was this?" and the cycle continues.

"Requiem for Methuselah"

There's a lot I like about the episode with Flint and the idea of this immortal person living on Earth under different aliases. The only thing that really doesn't work for me is Kirk falling in love with Reyna. I just don't buy it. Maybe if they had picked a more mature actress that embodied the qualities that I could see Kirk go for, it would play better. Diana Muldaur would have actually been more convincing. Aside from that, it does feel like the show during its better seasons and that's a high compliment for any in the third season.

"The Way to Eden"

Embarrassing. Bad use of Spock. Bad use of Chekov. Kirk comes off like a total boob. That dude's ears were not helping. The only nice thing was Irina's backless dress. I totally forgot that they entered Romulan space, so as that moment was happening I was really taken aback because I knew having seen this before that no Romulans appear. That means the Enterprise hung around Romulan space for awhile with no sign of consequences, which makes the Romulans look like total boobs.
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AAn incident at my brother's house this morning has resulted in two separate chains of text messages on my phone, from the parties involved.

One begins with, "can you believe my father woke me up at 9 AM on a Saturday morning to make me watch the original Star Trek show with him?"

The other begins with, "can you believe my daughter didn't want to watch the original Star Trek series with me?"

Because I get along with everyone. I'm the guy that my relatives write negative Yelp reviews of each other to.
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ARandomly watched Trek 4 today, been a while. It's so easy to forget how light and breezy it is. But also how really good it is.

It's the little stuff too, like the verbal sparring between Sarek and the Klingon Ambassador. Spock not knowing the proper way to use damn. Even the way Kirk tells Gillian that he "loves Italian."

Very underrated score as well.
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Please forgive my backtracking yet again:



Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

"A Private Little War"

This episode has a pretty strong start that it really grabbed me for awhile until it gets... weird. Suddenly I'm reminded that Roddenberry penned this, and it shows. Tyree's wife is what really hurts this. Other than healing Kirk with a strangely feverish ritual, she doesn't seem to be worth either as an ally or an antagonist. The whole seduction of Kirk feels like such a distraction from the 'Nam allegorical stuff that it gets even goofier when the tooth monster attacks the woman and Kirk is almost too doped up to help. There's a moment where she pulls out her knife at the rival villagers and she smirks in a way that makes it look like she can handle this, but then she just gets manhandled. Then it just gets weirder on the Enterprise when Spock has his "Vulcan healing" that requires Chapel to slap him as he yells "harder!", and Scotty's reaction "WHADDYA DOIN' WOMAN???!!!" Oh Gene, you and your fetishes.

All the stuff though about Kirk wanting to even the odds, Bones berating him for further contaminating a culture, the Klingons, the strained friendship and downbeat ending is all great. Just wish the episode wasn't so uneven as a whole.


The whole thing with Kirk maybe being in thrall to his buddy's witch-doctor wife seems to be there in order to make his violation of the Prime Directive excusable-- and make no mistake, he definitely oversteps whatever authority he has when he has Scotty manufacturing weapons. The writing is really conflicted on what it wants to say about proxy wars and balance-of-power gambits. It feels as if the writers didn't want to end on such an ambiguous and downbeat note, but they couldn't come out and say Kirk was wrong to escalate the situation either.



Side question: Do the Klingons also have a Prime Directive?  What's their motive in starting small with flintlocks, instead of just dropping off a case of disruptors?

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A[quote name="Hammerhead" url="/community/t/115578/the-star-trek-thread/4860#post_4102016"]
The whole thing with Kirk maybe being in thrall to his buddy's witch-doctor wife seems to be there in order to make his violation of the Prime Directive excusable-- and make no mistake, he definitely oversteps whatever authority he has when he has Scotty manufacturing weapons. The writing is really conflicted on what it wants to say about proxy wars and balance-of-power gambits. It feels as if the writers didn't want to end on such an ambiguous and downbeat note, but they couldn't come out and say Kirk was wrong to escalate the situation either.

Side question: Do the Klingons also have a Prime Directive?  What's their motive in starting small with flintlocks, instead of just dropping off a case of disruptors?
[/quote]
In regards to the Klingons...they don't have a prime directive. And they can't just give disrupters to the natives likely as a result of the Organian Peace treaty from the episode Errand of Mercy. It has to look like the natives came up with this stuff on their own.

Dunno why they have interest in a small war between primitives though.
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I love that Bones, of all people, can tell at a glance that the cold-rolled steel barrels have been made to look as if they were fashioned by hand. Not to mention grabbing convenient chunks of coal and sulphur and jumping right to "there's a forge and a gunpowder factory nearby". When's the last time any of these 23rd-century guys would have seen a flintlock?

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ABones has definitely seen firearms before. He has hillbilly cousins who guard the family moonshine still the old fashioned way. If you like Chateau Picard, you should try McCoy's Patented Paint Stripper and Cold Weather Engine Starter.
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A"The Cloud Minders"

Knowing David Gerrold's original treatment of this episode, it's hard to not think it would have played so much better had the television version stuck closer to his take. As it is, it's pretty underwhelming despite some really cool concepts like the city in the clouds and its production design. It also unfortunately has the worst writing of Spock, who's openly discussing pon farr with a woman I don't see Spock ever having any interest in. That whole inner monologue is so bizarre too.

Fun fact: In this episode Spock actually points out that Kirk shouldn't take risks, that it's the first officer who is more expendable than both the captain and CMO. Gerrold would later take that idea and write it into TNG's bible where it has become Starfleet policy that the first officer leads the away missions so that the captain can remain in command of the ship.

"The Savage Curtain"

So, any stories on why Roddenberry suddenly had credits towards the end of the show? By most accounts, he "abandoned" Trek by the third season, but somehow found his way towards its dying days. Anyway, I like a lot about this episode but it's mostly world building with Trek's history like Surak, Kahless, Colonel Green. There's that witch lady, but she never does anything cool. Most Roddenberry moment has to be when Uhura is not offended at being referred to as "negress", that humans have learned to overcome fearing words by the 23rd century (or future, as the show intentionally kept the timing vague). Looking at Memory Alpha, this is the last episode with Nichelle Nichols. I never realized that. I assumed she was at least in the penultimate episode, but this is where she bows out. That Excalbian creature is a cool design. For so many budget cuts going on the third season, they're still bringing what counts.

My only issue is the way it ends. Kirk knocks out Green and then that's it. Bye bye. Felt really abrupt and anti-climatic. Maybe Surak's decision to walk in unarmed could have played a vital part besides Lincoln taking the bait. I dunno.

"All Our Yesterdays"

A very nice Spock/Bones episode, and Mariette Hartley makes a much more believable romantic interest for Spock than the one in "The Cloud Minders". The Kirk stuff is pretty dull, but he's not much of a focus this time so it's okay. Another strong episode S3. Also, this is the episode with the latest stardate, so you could technically call it the real finale after "Turnabout Intruder"... Which I will get to a bit later.

Can't believe I'm already finishing my TOS trek. I could keep doing this if there were more episodes. Well, there is TAS, so maybe I'll continue on with that after I see BEYOND. I was originally going to try to revisit that before moving onto the films, but I lagged pretty badly during my run (which started back in March, which gave me plenty of time to do all of that). Oh well.

Now onto the episode that explains why women are not fit to command starships...
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I like how Cloud Minders illustrates Gerrold's personal belief, first seen in Tribbles, that the Transporter really shouldn't work without both a sending and receiving station.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

"The Savage Curtain"

So, any stories on why Roddenberry suddenly had credits towards the end of the show? By most accounts, he "abandoned" Trek by the third season, but somehow found his way towards its dying days. Anyway, I like a lot about this episode but it's mostly world building with Trek's history like Surak, Kahless, Colonel Green. There's that witch lady, but she never does anything cool. Most Roddenberry moment has to be when Uhura is not offended at being referred to as "negress", that humans have learned to overcome fearing words by the 23rd century (or future, as the show intentionally kept the timing vague). Looking at Memory Alpha, this is the last episode with Nichelle Nichols. I never realized that. I assumed she was at least in the penultimate episode, but this is where she bows out. That Excalbian creature is a cool design. For so many budget cuts going on the third season, they're still bringing what counts.

My only issue is the way it ends. Kirk knocks out Green and then that's it. Bye bye. Felt really abrupt and anti-climatic. Maybe Surak's decision to walk in unarmed could have played a vital part besides Lincoln taking the bait. I dunno.

"The Savage Curtain" was one of the first episodes I ever saw all the way through, so I probably have an inordinate amount of affection for it.  Such a delightfully bizarre hook for an episode ("Hey, let's have Abraham Lincoln floating in space!").  The Excalbian is one of my favorite TOS aliens, too.

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A"Turnabout Intruder"

This is it. Thing about this episode is that it really needs to be approached like it's just another episode that would have been slotted in the middle of the season, kind of like how "The Corbomite Maneuver" was, even though that was the first "real" TOS episode with everything set in place after the first pilot with Kirk.

Approaching it like that, this is kind of a wacky fun episode. The actress playing Janice Lester is actually very good at portraying Kirk. She's not doing Shatnerarian masterworks (oh, but he is), but she does a convincing job when switching between the insane Lester and the trapped Kirk. Then there's Shatner. Oh man. He's wonderful. Neither good or bad, just exquisite. Him filing his nails, yelling "MUT-NEY", the attempt at playing a psychopathic woman Kirk dated one time. So wonderful.

Given this is the last episode, it's very fitting that the supporting cast is given something notable to work with. It's really too bad Nichelle Nichols wasn't around. I said Nimoy sort of "gave up" in the middle of the season, but he's come back around since the Flint episode and stays very good here. Bones and Scotty do their thing. Love the moment with Chekov and Sulu objecting to Janice Kirk exercising the death penalty that they simply refuse the orders without saying a word. It makes me wonder if the show had continued would Chekov, Sulu and Uhura been given more to work with instead of just doing the usual thing? Makes one wonder.

"All Our Yesterdays" would have still made a better finale.

TEN YEARS LATER...

Or just two and a half years, according to many of the characters:

STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE

I watched the Director's Edition. Wish they would remaster that, because that old DVD is not aging well. Gotta say, as much as I admire it in many ways, I fell asleep towards the end. Just doesn't get the blood rushing like TOS. All the trappings are there, but there's so little warmth, humor, and color, it just drifts away. That scene in sick bay with Spock holding Kirk's hand was one of the few moments that sort of rekindled what TOS was best known for. It really needed more of that. Great score though.

TEN YEARS OR MORE LATER (properly)

STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN

Gangbusters. I do think it's a tad overrated, and I'm not as in love with the militarized uniforms these days (sue me, I'm much more tuned to TOS/TNG primary color uniforms), but this is still a great Trek adventure and the best the films will ever be. It would be a miracle to get anything this good in today's marketplace. Sure, I enjoyed BEYOND, but that's more of a breezy disposable film which is okay, just not as rich as movies like this.

Hmm, my movie comments are very brief. I suppose that's what it'll be like. I'm sure I talked more about the movies on this very thread than I ever did of every TOS episode anyway.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Fun fact: In this episode Spock actually points out that Kirk shouldn't take risks, that it's the first officer who is more expendable than both the captain and CMO. Gerrold would later take that idea and write it into TNG's bible where it has become Starfleet policy that the first officer leads the away missions so that the captain can remain in command of the ship.


Back to this real quick...I'm fine with the Captain being discouraged to lead the away team. But for me it doesn't work when the First officer takes the Chief Medical Officer, 3rd officer, Chief of Security and Chief Engineer. That's as bad or worse than having the Captain go. I mean one accident and you wipe out the entire senior staff...except for the Captain. Just have the XO take one of the other Doctors and a few red shirts.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE

I watched the Director's Edition. Wish they would remaster that, because that old DVD is not aging well. Gotta say, as much as I admire it in many ways, I fell asleep towards the end. Just doesn't get the blood rushing like TOS. All the trappings are there, but there's so little warmth, humor, and color, it just drifts away. That scene in sick bay with Spock holding Kirk's hand was one of the few moments that sort of rekindled what TOS was best known for. It really needed more of that. Great score though.

TEN YEARS OR MORE LATER (properly)

STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN

Gangbusters. I do think it's a tad overrated, and I'm not as in love with the militarized uniforms these days (sue me, I'm much more tuned to TOS/TNG primary color uniforms), but this is still a great Trek adventure and the best the films will ever be. It would be a miracle to get anything this good in today's marketplace. Sure, I enjoyed BEYOND, but that's more of a breezy disposable film which is okay, just not as rich as movies like this.

Hmm, my movie comments are very brief. I suppose that's what it'll be like. I'm sure I talked more about the movies on this very thread than I ever did of every TOS episode anyway.

Not only is the DVD getting a bit long in the tooth...the digital image cleaning on the Blu-Ray is terrible. Paramount needs to re-do that one real bad. I've actually come around on the TMP style uniform. Even Kirk's polo. The colors were just too muted and the big belt buckle should have gone.



I do love the WoK - Undiscovered Country style, especially the little details like Kirk's admiral jacket having the extra gold trim. It has him stand out as the senior officer without going overboard like they did with the 50 different designs in TNG.

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A[quote name="Paul755" url="/community/t/115578/the-star-trek-thread/4890#post_4105136"]
Back to this real quick...I'm fine with the Captain being discouraged to lead the away team. But for me it doesn't work when the First officer takes the Chief Medical Officer, 3rd officer, Chief of Security and Chief Engineer. That's as bad or worse than having the Captain go. I mean one accident and you wipe out the entire senior staff...except for the Captain. Just have the XO take one of the other Doctors and a few red shirts.
[/quote]

Yeah but you'd need a lot of bit players or a whole other B cast of away team members to be "tactically sound." It's as much a budget and storytelling thing as anything else.

Though TNG at least made a passing effort to be better about it, and portrayed that there generally were qualified people there to move into place if they away team was lost.
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Two questions about Return to Tomorrow:



What is the title supposed to mean?



Is this indeed Peak Shatner?

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AFirst time I saw the title I thought it was a time travel story. The name escapes me too.
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It's a great title for a Trek ep. Just not this one.

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AThe new Trek show is using the Ken Adam Enterprise design!

[Video]https://youtu.be/bqm9HSYbf0o[/video]
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ANot Ken Adam.

Ralph McQuarrrie.

Already posted it on the DISCOVERY thread.
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AMcQuarrie's art, so I understand, used the Ken Adam design as a starting point.
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