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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-Release Discussion)
I was entertained. I don't really see myself sitting down to watch the whole thing again, but I haven't watched any of the sequel trilogy all the way through since the theater. I have been laughing at Threepio's "Will this agony never end?!" when they were sinking into that shit for two days now.
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(12-23-2019, 12:44 PM)Judas Booth Wrote: We needed episode 9 to set up the return of the Emperor and episode 10 to be...this film, I guess.

I still can't believe that the return of the big, bad Emperor was reduced to THE DEAD SPEAK in the opening crawl.

Now let's be fair, there was also a message in Fortnite.
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(12-23-2019, 12:48 PM)Misfit Wrote: I was entertained. I don't really see myself sitting down to watch the whole thing again, but I haven't watched any of the sequel trilogy all the way through since the theater. I have been laughing at Threepio's "Will this agony never end?!" when they were sinking into that shit for two days now.

C3PO was consistently brilliant in this. His 'I know you didn't mention my name, but I'm fine alright too' and 'Wait, I've just had another idea...' were absolutely wonderful. 

He... might be... the best written character in it. Then Ben. Then General Pryde and Hux. Then there's a massive, massive gap.

When did the 'this is the end of the Skywalker saga' stuff start happening? The more I think about it, the more this film's fundamental flaws all seem down to it feeling it has to not only cap Rey and Ben's stories but staple them to the Sith/Palpatine thread from I-VI. I can't remember 'the ending' being a thing before the casting press releases for IX.

It's such a strange, strange move for Lucasfilm to resurrect a story satisfyingly concluded for 32 years only to end it again. If I were producing it, I'd have had 'em end the story of Rey, Kylo, and the First Order conclusively without suggesting it represented the grand finale for all time. I don't think that's what VII and VIII thought they were setting up, either. Hell, they could've saved Palpatine's ghost for X-XII in 2030.
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The crux of it is that there should never have been a sequel trilogy. Yeah, there was an original notion of just killing Vader in part 6 and introducing the lost twin in part 7 for a trilogy based around the Emperor's ultimate defeat but once the saga had been compressed from 9 parts to 6 and everything wrapped up as the rise/fall/redemption of Anakin Skywalker, there's nowherereally to go except a half-assed rehash of old ideas.

By all means, use some of the leftover concepts but just let it be in a new, standalone trilogy.
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Don't know if this has already been said, but for any of you complaining about lore/canon/mythology inconsistencies/contradictions;

This movie was in such a rushed production due the scramble for a director, that the Star Wars Story Group (a group of die-hards assembled and hired specifically to keep the new movies consistent not only with themselves, but also the original six films and any new associated peripheral media) was NOT involved in the making of TRoS.

...

I can FEEL your ANGER. Let the HATE flow through you!
Git' in under mah belly!
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This movie (and new trilogy) strangely enough was giving me flashes of the fuckups of the Clone Sage from the Spider-Man comics. Every time they introduce a bizarre plot point, another nonsensical thing is brought in to try to make sense of everything but just makes it worse. It gets so bad they have to bring back a long dead enemy who had a satisfying ending years ago just because they need a believable mastermind behind the nonsense. There's even stupid clones! I don't envy the comic book and novel writers who have to fill in the blanks with fan fiction within the next couple years.
"You want a vision of the future?Imagine a boot stomping on a human face.....forever."
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(12-23-2019, 01:54 PM)cd underbelly Wrote: Don't know if this has already been said, but for any of you complaining about lore/canon/mythology inconsistencies/contradictions;

This movie was in such a rushed production due the scramble for a director, that the Star Wars Story Group (a group of die-hards assembled and hired specifically to keep the new movies consistent not only with themselves, but also the original six films and any new associated peripheral media) was NOT involved in the making of TRoS.

...

I can FEEL your ANGER. Let the HATE flow through you!

That was readily apparent.  This script felt like a brundlefly of half-baked ideas thrown together without any coherence.  By sheer luck, some of the ideas landed well enough that there was a semblance of an arc for the major characters.
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(12-23-2019, 01:54 PM)cd underbelly Wrote: Don't know if this has already been said, but for any of you complaining about lore/canon/mythology inconsistencies/contradictions;

This movie was in such a rushed production due the scramble for a director, that the Star Wars Story Group (a group of die-hards assembled and hired specifically to keep the new movies consistent not only with themselves, but also the original six films and any new associated peripheral media) was NOT involved in the making of TRoS.

...

I can FEEL your ANGER. Let the HATE flow through you!

I don't think this is true - it hasn't been reported anywhere that doesn't trade in weirdly-political BS rumours.
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(12-23-2019, 12:32 PM)farsight Wrote: The weird thing is that JJ has written some of the best TV pilots ever produced (Alias, Lost, Fringe). Each created likable characters and a world for their shows to succeed while also telling entertaining stories, all in less than 90 minutes. He knows setups and premises as well as any writer working.

Yet TROS suffers most because two previous films did a terrible job of setting up an epic finale. Two films in and the story was less far along than the OT was after Star Wars. By the end of Empire, the OT had set up its final villain, a romance, Luke's parentage, and given him his setback to establish doubt in his future, while also giving the next film its first story beat. TROS has to do all that heavy lifting itself, and it suffers from it.

Abrams knows how to set up a story.

He has no fucking idea how to tell and end a complete story.

ALIAS - JFC. The first two seasons were like crack...but that's because I assumed it was actually going somewhere. In S3 they pull that bullshit amnesia/time jump trick and it rapidly went downhill from there.

Abrams is a great guy to go if you want an instant BEGINNING hook for a story. But you better go elsewhere if you want an actual ending.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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Of this trilogy, TFA is the only one I can get much enjoyment out of a rewatch. TLJ is the one I respect more than I enjoy. This one... makes me re-evaluate the prequels. Lucas may have lost his vision a long time ago, but at least the guy HAD ONE at some point beyond "How can we squeeze more money out of this."

JJ can set up the pins like nobody's business, but he can't pick up a fucking spare to save his life.
-"You're not going insane - you're going sane in a crazy world!"
-The Tick
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(12-23-2019, 02:31 PM)rexbanner Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 01:54 PM)cd underbelly Wrote: Don't know if this has already been said, but for any of you complaining about lore/canon/mythology inconsistencies/contradictions;

This movie was in such a rushed production due the scramble for a director, that the Star Wars Story Group (a group of die-hards assembled and hired specifically to keep the new movies consistent not only with themselves, but also the original six films and any new associated peripheral media) was NOT involved in the making of TRoS.

...

I can FEEL your ANGER. Let the HATE flow through you!

I don't think this is true - it hasn't been reported anywhere that doesn't trade in weirdly-political BS rumours.

[Image: tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif]
Git' in under mah belly!
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Going back to the opening crawl.  It's like the original film giving the audience this:
   
So instead of an exciting blaster fight to start things off, we get Luke just fartin' around on the farm.

It can't think twice, can't reason, can't change it's prime directive. It's like a chainsaw set on frappé.
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THE TRADE FEDERATION SPEAKS! (in a slightly racist accent)
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I'm imagining a better, more streamlined first act that begins with the galaxy hearing this mysterious "broadcast" from the Emperor, which in turn sets both Rey and Kylo Ren on separate paths to find him and destroy him (and the Resistance would -- incorrectly -- assume that Kylo and the First Order plan to link up with the Emperor and his Sith fleet).
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-23-2019, 09:45 AM)ska oreo Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 03:10 AM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 01:56 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent and say that I'm continuing to like this movie the more I think about!

The dumb stuff is still REALLY dumb, but the two most important things -- Rey and Kylo -- really work for me.

I've seen it 3 times and it's like TLJ ... the good stuff gets better and the not so good stuff gets not so gooder, and, also like TLJ, it's held at a wonky 7/10 each time in terms of overall entertainment value. The highs are higher in TLJ, but TROS is more consistently engaging.

Each time Hux's "I'm the spy!" moment has been the best joke in the film and each time Poe's dramatic "Somehow Palpatine is still alive" declaration is the most unintentionally funny. 

And also each time Chewie breaking down hits the hardest in the feels.
  There is no way that any of TROS is ever remotely comparable to whatever problems you might have had with TLJ.  

Consistently engaging?  How?  There are literally moments where characters decide to do shit based on whether or not it’d look cool in a trailer shots.  The action sequences ar fucking terrible, and most of the plot points prove to be fucking largely inconsequential.  Like I don’t give a shit about C3PO, but everything regarding that, from everyone just casually being okay with mindraping the droid to the bullshit solution they gave was fucking stupid.

TROS is what people were trying to claim about TLJ: an actual fucking clusterfuck.

MORE consistenly engaging I said Ska you goof. Not TOTALLY consistently engaging. Don't make me do a snark attack on you with a link to a dictionary.com explanation of how comparatives work, because I'm certainly not too good to stoop to that kind of cheap shot if you push me. I mean, I'm from South Auckland bro. We do it Once Were Warriors style in my hood. And you know Jake the Muss aka Jango Fett was all about snark attacks using dictionary.com.

But basically what I'm saying, for the 1138th time, is that while most of the Rey/Kylo/Luke stuff in TLJ is some of the most engaging Star Wars that's ever Star Warsed, Canto Bight and the slow speed chase in TLJ are some of the least engaging Star Wars that's ever Star Warsed. Yes, less engaging even than a lot of the heavily flawed Star Wars that Lucas delivered in the prequels. 

Probably the most frustrating thing about the whole ST is how inconsistently engaging TLJ is. Because aside from Kylo, the paint-by-numbers, cover band feel of TFA is so wholly unengaging I can pretty much discard it. TROS is something of a mess, but even in its most undercooked moments it still has some spice and flavour. At its best TLJ is about as delicious as Star Wars gets, certainly levels above TROS, but in its most undercooked moments TLJ is really, really, really bland. Almost as if Rian only really cared about the Force stuff and spent far less time honing the other two strands of his story.

Therefore, when it all comes out in the wash and we conduct the discussion in the only language that really matters when discussing art - the language of numbers - it turns out that TLJ = 7/10 and TROS = 7/10.
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Broadcast = Chris Terrio: "Fuck it, Palpatine is General Zod."
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(12-23-2019, 09:16 AM)waaaaaaaalt Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 09:09 AM)Evi Wrote: I did like the parentage reveal in the previous film, and was disappointed by the way they walked it back in this one, but Anakin was a nobody so it's not exactly like the films have never done this.
Wait wasn't Anakin made by Palpatine with force magic or whatever?

That whole thing was apparently in a nightmare Vader was having, so there are at least two layers of doubt there. To buy it you first have to take something the notoriously devious and deceiving Palpatine says at face value, and then you also have to believe the dream was real and not simply a nightmare conjured by Anakin/Vader's dark side-powered fears.

That's what Bryan "Master of Star Wars Lore" Young said about it anyway, and I'm pretty sure the only person on the planet who knows more lore than that dude is Dave Filoni himself.
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One more nit to pick: Whoever did Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill's hair for this film should never work in Hollywood again.

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Since when can force ghosts touch stuff, let alone manipulate physical objects?

And if Rey's gambit was "I'll hold my lightsaber behind my back at the crucial moment so you can force-skype it," why wait? She already has a second saber behind her back.

Rey's faceoff with the TIE fighter felt like, "Hang on guys, gotta do a setpiece for the trailer. Be right with ya."

Oh, and Fake Young Leia Face? Just as creepy here as in Rogue One.
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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(12-23-2019, 05:45 PM)hammerhead Wrote: Rey's faceoff with the TIE fighter felt like, "Hang on guys, gotta do a setpiece. Be right with ya."

Time for a cutscene.  Hold on a sec.
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Actually more like:

"Run for the Falcon! We don't have much time!"

"Ooh! Setpiece!"

"Reeeeey"
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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“If you like this movie you have a low IQ”-Mike Stoklasa.

Wow.

Tell us how you really feel?

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(12-23-2019, 04:05 PM)cd underbelly Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 02:31 PM)rexbanner Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 01:54 PM)cd underbelly Wrote: Don't know if this has already been said, but for any of you complaining about lore/canon/mythology inconsistencies/contradictions;

This movie was in such a rushed production due the scramble for a director, that the Star Wars Story Group (a group of die-hards assembled and hired specifically to keep the new movies consistent not only with themselves, but also the original six films and any new associated peripheral media) was NOT involved in the making of TRoS.

...

I can FEEL your ANGER. Let the HATE flow through you!

I don't think this is true - it hasn't been reported anywhere that doesn't trade in weirdly-political BS rumours.

[Image: tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif]

Pablo Hidalgo has completely locked down his twitter (or possibly deleted it? The @pablohidalgo handle might not even be him any more). I can definitely see this as something he did pre-emptively because he knew he was going to get shit on by a billion angry fanboys over canon breaking decisions in this movie that he had nothing to do with.
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(12-23-2019, 05:45 PM)hammerhead Wrote: Since when can force ghosts touch stuff

Since at least as early as 1983 when Obi-wan is walking on the ground and sitting on logs and stuff.
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And here we go.


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(12-23-2019, 06:28 PM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 05:45 PM)hammerhead Wrote: Since when can force ghosts touch stuff

Since at least as early as 1983 when Obi-wan is walking on the ground and sitting on logs and stuff.

That's different. That's default Movie Ghost physics where people can walk through walls but not fall through the floor-- passive interaction. We've never seen a force ghost actively move stuff before. "Obi-wan cannot help you now..."
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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About 32 minutes in Jay falls back into the trap of thinking the prequels unintentionally made the Jedi look bad, even though Yoda at one point literally says a whole bunch of them have become arrogant pricks. That's a direct quote too.

LIFT YOUR GAME JAY!

Fortunately Rich Evans is still perfect.

(12-23-2019, 06:45 PM)hammerhead Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 06:28 PM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 05:45 PM)hammerhead Wrote: Since when can force ghosts touch stuff

Since at least as early as 1983 when Obi-wan is walking on the ground and sitting on logs and stuff.

That's different. That's default Movie Ghost physics where people can walk through walls but not fall through the floor-- passive interaction. We've never seen a force ghost actively move stuff before. "Obi-wan cannot help you now..."

What about the scene in Empire where Obi-wan is outside Yoda's hut holding a beatbox above his head playing Don't Stop Believing to keep Yoda's spirits up just after Luke defies him and runs off to save Han?

And don't try the old "That was a ghost beatbox" defense, we all know there's no green ghost glow around that thing.
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(12-23-2019, 05:26 PM)Overlord Wrote: One more nit to pick:  Whoever did Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill's hair for this film should never work in Hollywood again.

I thought Harrison Ford's hair looked great!

Without hyperbole, Mark Hamill's was the single worst thing ever committed to film. In ANH Force ghosts can speak; in ESB they can appear; in ROTJ they can appear for a long time and sit down; in TLJ they can call on the Force; in TROS they can grow their hair and gain a couple of pounds.

It was weird how shit the Force ghosts looked in this. More jarringly weird than Grand Moff Tarkin.
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The ghosts were too blue.

Yoda looked fine in THE LAST JEDI, so I don't know what happened here.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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The Rise of Skywalker’s opening crawl references an event you could only hear in Fortnite




Ugh
Mangy Wrote:TCM 2 is like sentient cocaine.
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(12-23-2019, 07:07 PM)rexbanner Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 05:26 PM)Overlord Wrote: One more nit to pick:  Whoever did Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill's hair for this film should never work in Hollywood again.

I thought Harrison Ford's hair looked great!

Without hyperbole, Mark Hamill's was the single worst thing ever committed to film. In ANH Force ghosts can speak; in ESB they can appear; in ROTJ they can appear for a long time and sit down; in TLJ they can call on the Force; in TROS they can grow their hair and gain a couple of pounds.

It was weird how shit the Force ghosts looked in this. More jarringly weird than Grand Moff Tarkin.
They can grow their hair, but absolutely not wash it.
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They can de-age if they died ugly.
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(12-23-2019, 03:17 PM)Anjin Wrote: Of this trilogy, TFA is the only one I can get much enjoyment out of a rewatch.  TLJ is the one I respect more than I enjoy. This one... makes me re-evaluate the prequels.  Lucas may have lost his vision a long time ago, but at least the guy HAD ONE at some point beyond "How can we squeeze more money out of this."

JJ can set up the pins like nobody's business, but he can't pick up a fucking spare to save his life.
Exactly. TFA had that magical feel, pure setup and discovery, modest in scope and pace. It looked good.

I hated TLJ at first even though I welcomed an oddball take. 

And the prequels are rocketing in estimation. However stilted, expository, and soullessly digital those films were, they were paced such that every clearly-rendered action scene felt like a proper payoff.  Anakin's big conversion in ROTS isn't a seamless affiar, but at least the whole trilogy was aiming for it. 

I don't think I blame anyone directly for the sum of the sequel trilogy, but it's a mess. ROS is a mess, and visually uninteresting.  You can choose to hate it or choose to enjoy it, but the whole exprience pours through the psyche like sand through a sieve.

"If we can't be great, let's be truthful."- Sylvester Stallone, commenting the cinematic rendering of what a mounted .50-cal might do to the flesh of enemies in RAMBO.
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(12-23-2019, 03:17 PM)Anjin Wrote: Of this trilogy, TFA is the only one I can get much enjoyment out of a rewatch.  TLJ is the one I respect more than I enjoy. This one... makes me re-evaluate the prequels.  Lucas may have lost his vision a long time ago, but at least the guy HAD ONE at some point beyond "How can we squeeze more money out of this."

JJ can set up the pins like nobody's business, but he can't pick up a fucking spare to save his life.

I really liked TFA.  I think I gave it an A- and considered it a ton of fun.  But I don't know how I can watch it now and still enjoy it.  I haven't tried post TLJ ... 

(12-23-2019, 07:13 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: The ghosts were too blue.

Yoda looked fine in THE LAST JEDI, so I don't know what happened here.

The rumor going around town is that Disney has to make them more overtly "magical" as opposed to "ghost"-like in order to appease China.

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(12-23-2019, 07:52 PM)leviathan joe Wrote: And the prequels are rocketing in estimation. However stilted, expository, and soullessly digital those films were, they were paced such that every clearly-rendered action scene felt like a proper payoff.  Anakin's big conversion in ROTS isn't a seamless affair, but at least the whole trilogy was aiming for it. 

That's been one of the three major results of my journey with the ST too.

The second is the fascinating ways in which it's revealed how Star Wars has meant such different things to different fans.

The third is that Adam Driver is fucking aces.
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