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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-Release Discussion)
(12-28-2019, 09:04 AM)Mangy Wrote: I can't help but wonder how this movie would have been if Trevorrow had done it. imagine this story, only worse.

Jimmy Buffet cameo as a robed Sith disciple holding a Margarita.

Two AT-ST's wrestle each other for leadership of the pack.

Rose gets torn in half by asteroid cave-bats.
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(12-28-2019, 07:18 PM)freeman Wrote: Why on Earth would even someone who hates TLJ take petty joy in this movie fucking that one up in retrospect? That doesn't help anyone or anything. It just hurts the story.

I appreciate how you ignored my "on the other hand," which illustrated that I'm of two minds on this subject. And I never used the word joy, either.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-28-2019, 07:18 PM)freeman Wrote: Why on Earth would even someone who hates TLJ take petty joy in this movie fucking that one up in retrospect? That doesn't help anyone or anything. It just hurts the story.

Some men just wanto watch the world burn.
Git' in under mah belly!
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(12-28-2019, 07:41 PM)kyle reese 2 Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 09:04 AM)Mangy Wrote: I can't help but wonder how this movie would have been if Trevorrow had done it. imagine this story, only worse.

Jimmy Buffet cameo as a robed Sith disciple holding a Margarita.

Two AT-ST's wrestle each other for leadership of the pack.

Rose gets torn in half by asteroid cave-bats.

Well, that is more Rose, and Twitter really wants more Rose for some bizarre fucking reason.
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(12-28-2019, 08:22 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 07:18 PM)freeman Wrote: Why on Earth would even someone who hates TLJ take petty joy in this movie fucking that one up in retrospect? That doesn't help anyone or anything. It just hurts the story.

I appreciate how you ignored my "on the other hand," which illustrated that I'm of two minds on this subject. And I never used the word joy, either.

I saw how you thought TLJ was out of character and Rise was in character and my brain short circuited.
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(12-28-2019, 06:38 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 04:52 PM)rexbanner Wrote: Luke's example being referred to

On one hand, I don't like how Johnson handled Luke in THE LAST JEDI (especially his death), so part of me is extremely perversely amused to see that THE RISE OF SKYWALKER aggressively brushes aside Johnson's intentions with Luke's final stand; turns out, he actually didn't inspire the galaxy, or give them hope, or significantly increase the Resistance's ranks.  It takes Lando to do that (off-screen).  Luke, basically, died to send a message that nobody (in the universe of the story) gave a damn about!  Except those stupid street urchins on Canto Bight, which was the real victory, I guess!

But on the other hand, I love Luke Skywalker.  He was, literally, one of my childhood heroes.  TROS completes this trilogy's failure of Luke as a character by undoing the character's sacrifice from TLJ, which was intended (I suppose) to be seen as uplifting... even though I personally found it utterly deflating.

I wouldn't say TROS undoes it, given that the Resistance survive to do what they do. Now if they were Alien 3'd during the opening crawl? Different story... for another time!
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Truly remarkable that the rotten tomatoes score has been at 86%, no movement at all, since release Friday.

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How can something so rotten be certified fresh?
Git' in under mah belly!
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(12-28-2019, 10:25 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I wouldn't say TROS undoes it, given that the Resistance survive to do what they do. Now if they were Alien 3'd during the opening crawl? Different story... for another time!

I guess, but at minimum, Luke's sacrifice pretty explicitly did not achieve what Johnson intended for it to achieve.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-28-2019, 11:10 PM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 10:25 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: I wouldn't say TROS undoes it, given that the Resistance survive to do what they do. Now if they were Alien 3'd during the opening crawl? Different story... for another time!

I guess, but at minimum, Luke's sacrifice pretty explicitly did not achieve what Johnson intended for it to achieve.

Which doesn't fuck over Rian Johnson... It fucks over Luke Skywalker.

To JJ Abrams, an old broken down Lando is more inspirational to the entire galaxy than Luke fucking Skywalker. How hard is it to have some production designers have people spray painting Rebel symbols everywhere and street prophets telling enraptured people the tale of the last stand of the LEGENDARY Luke Skywalker! One small scene where Lando mentions "man they're really getting fired up lately" is all you would need.

But no. JJ says "Fuck you Luke Skywalker". You get to be a ghost in one very minor scene.
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(12-28-2019, 01:04 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Sure it is, I just don’t see it as a bad thing. It’s pure space opera escapism.

The thing is, no matter how far you want to run down ANH, it doesn’t help TFA look any better. It has no identity, or ambition, beyond carbon copying that hollow spectacle from 40 years ago.
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The soaring spirit of ANH was forward-looking, expansive, adventurous space opera escapism. Lucas was basically Luke looking toward the twin suns on the horizon, towards possibility and potential and daring to step into a larger world.

What little spirit can be found in TFA was backward-looking, regressive, conservative space opera retreadism. Abrams was basically Rey sitting next to her 36 year-old AT-AT, wearing a 42 year-old helmet, scared shitless to move beyond what she already knew.

TFA is the least truly Star Warsy film ever made.
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(12-29-2019, 04:56 AM)schwartz Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 01:04 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Sure it is, I just don’t see it as a bad thing. It’s pure space opera escapism.

The thing is, no matter how far you want to run down ANH, it doesn’t help TFA look any better. It has no identity, or ambition, beyond carbon copying that hollow spectacle from 40 years ago.

That an ANH was made 40 years ago. Considering the countless additions to the SW lore, I don’t think it’s really an excuse.  TFA just felt like it was treading old ground.
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There's an interview where JJ Abrams says, verbatim, of TFA, 'I wanted to purposefuly revisit the old, in order to start and tell the new'. I get that, even if I don't agree with it - I think you absolutely could evoke the feelings of A New Hope without an orphan on a desert planet, an underdog rebellion, a 3rd Death Star, a trench run, and a cantina scene, but I don't envy the pressure the writers would've been under, and I'd be ready to believe it was because of non-cynical 'We'll do a cover version first, build in some new stuff, and then get started' attitude.

But TROS falls over itself to repeat beats from Return of the Jedi so frequently that I'm now much more inclined to believe JJ's pitch meetings are just endless variations on 'It's like poetry, it rhymes'. If TFA was 'looking back to go forward', was TROS 'looking back to look back'. At what point in the plans he set out would anything new have happened?

Btw, the shit George Lucas got for that is, and always has been, inane as fuck. His gentle echoing of set designs and moments at points throughout the PT now looks a lot more subtle and intelligent next to ANH 0.5 and ESB/ROTJ 0.2.
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(12-29-2019, 08:07 AM)rexbanner Wrote: Btw, the shit George Lucas got for that is, and always has been, inane as fuck. His gentle echoing of set designs and moments at points throughout the PT now looks a lot more subtle and intelligent next to ANH 0.5 and ESB/ROTJ 0.2.

Structurally, the PT is superior to TFA and TROS. Lucas knows how to build a movie. (Which isn't to say they're all that good; e.g., the podrace that eats up a shit-ton of time in TPM really doesn't do anything to forward the story or tell us something new.) Emotionally and dialogue-wise, the PT and the Abrams movies are roughly equally bad and ineffective.

But I get your point, and it..rhymes!...with something I said upthread, I believe. The ST overall forces me to re-evaluate the PT, and it's not the ST that comes out the better for it.
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I mean purely in terms of how they incorporate imagery and moments from the OT.

Anakin murdering Dooku in a conference room visually similar to the Death Star II *is* an interesting little bit of symbolism. In one era Anakin chooses to murder in cold blood, and is basically Darth Vader in waiting from then on; in another era Luke doesn't. It's not profound - no bit of cinematic symbolism is when you explain it in words, which ain't the medium it's working in - but it draws relevant parallels, makes sense, and can be picked up or ignored by the audience depending on their level of investment.

Palpatine telling Rey to strike him down is there because it happened in ROTJ; Luke telling Rey on his Jedi hermit world that she must face Palpatine when she flees there is because it happened in ROTJ; Kylo Ren telling Rey that she's a Palpatine is there because Vader told Luke he was his father in ESB. It's 'Remember this?' all the way down, and I can't believe that pure self-consciousness wouldn't have stopped Abrams and Terrio from doing it.
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At least Rian Johnson's callbacks and memba berry dialogue was at the very least not verbatim and was relevant to the story being told.

"Strike me down and I'll always be with you... Just like your father."

Technically an obnoxious memba berry, but I actually really like it, because it modifies the classic line to mean something new.
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(12-29-2019, 09:18 AM)freeman Wrote: At least Rian Johnson's callbacks and memba berry dialogue was at the very least not verbatim and was relevant to the story being told.

"Strike me down and I'll always be with you...  Just like your father."

Technically an obnoxious memba berry, but I actually really like it, because it modifies the classic line to mean something new.

See, I don't even include this as obnoxious, because 'to strike down' is Jedi/Sith jargon, and the actual situations are quite different. It's definitely a riff, but, like the Lucas one I mentioned earlier, it's warranted. It's not there to be a riff, it's a good moment which Johnson has elected to link to a previous good moment. 

Whereas JJ would've been like, 'Where do we put the 'If you strike me down I will become more powerful' bit?'
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And it would have been the exact literal line with a smug wink to the screen, and the context would have been all wonky and completely wrong and innappropriate, and it would get an 86 percent positive user vote on Rotten Tomatoes because people are sheep.
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Saw this Friday with a bunch of my in-law fam. I don't think anyone liked it, maybe one brother-in-law ("one brother-in-law likes it" seems like about the right batting average for this thing). My niece and nephew seemed very non-plussed.

What an over-plotted atrocity. More special object objectives than a videogame. Stupid narrative convolutions piled on top of each other. So much shit that doesn't make sense, with everything complicated for the sake of spectacle and dumb ideas that should have been dropped anyways. Low stakes because no one really dies, Kylo and Rey should have Force-resurrected each other in an endless loop to symbolize the perpetual, undying, romantic absurdity that Abrams has turned this saga into. Or maybe they could have gone back and forth just enough so that Rey could get knocked up with the Extra-Super-Duper-Chosen One.

This movie was almost meta, right? Everything with Ghost Luke for starters, JJ might as well have had him start his conversation with Rey with "And now I am going to try to reconcile The Last Jedi's themes with this dumb-ass movie you are watching right now." Palpatine: "Find a planet they care about and destroy it! How about this one like 20 minutes earlier in this same movie, yeah, that will be fresh in their memories!" Good thing we got that line about how all the children were already taken off the planet. JJ can't even commit to killing the two side characters we met there. Two of many new side characters, added into this movie for the seemingly sole purpose of filling a Kelly Marie Tran-shaped hole. "Rose, you coming?" "No, sorry, I have to stay here and study these Destroyers so as to appease the angry Star Wars fanboys." "Oh, so, like, you're going to be our main sequel trilogy character that's hanging here with Leia, then?" "Sort of, actually I am gonna have to split my lines up with Charlie from Lost and Greg from Felicity." "Oh, JJ's boys, huh..." "Yeah, anyways, you go on ahead, you find yourself a nice black girl who shares your exact same background."

Once the movie settled down and finally found some sort of natural rhythm, it was okay in the middle, with some decent C3PO stuff. No one bought the Chewie death for even a second but at least it had some interesting ramifications for, like, two scenes--too bad JJ didn't have the balls to actually have Rey accidentally kill someone close to her or at the very least make her think she's done that long enough to adequately set up her self-fear stuff--but nooooo, having Chewie appear to be dead for more than, like, twenty minutes or even having the other characters think Chewie is dead for that long is too much of a downer, gotta keep shit breezy and banter-y (and we all knew the explanation was going to be "it must have been another transport!" even when there was clearly no other transport in that scene--JJ magic). Even the okay parts of the movie just felt kind of hollow when every scene is hanging on a tangled up mobile of a narrative framework and we're supposed to just point at the sparkly cute things and giggle and coo like babies, ignoring that they're moving around each other in a really awkward, ugly dance. Movie got awful again in the last act but that's to be expected when JJ feels pressured to give us the biggest, baddest finale of anything EVAH so he just throws a bunch of shit at you and over-emphasizes every other shot.

The denouement, haha. So Rey got off Tatooine rip-off planet at the beginning of TFA so she could end up on the real Tatooine at the end of TRoS--way to bring it home, JJ. I mean, overall, because the denouement is actually chilled out and doesn't have the relentless stupid plot pressure of the rest of the movie, it actually felt like one of the best parts. Still had plenty of stupid contrived shit, like yet more reassuring Force Ghosts. Half expected the camera to pan over from Luke and Leia and we get Han's, Kylo's, and Greg Gunberg's Force-ghost smiling and nodding at Rey (and if Ghost Luke can lift an X-wing a mile out of the ocean, Ghost Palpatine is going to be a right bitch in the The Rise of JJ 2: JJ's Back, Baby). Then in the coda you also get Rey turning her lightsaber on for the sole purpose of showing the audience it's, GASP, yellow, and then random old lady who apparently is walking into the desert to die to come up at just the right moment and ask in just the right way, "Who are you?" "...AAAAND WHAT'S YOUR LAST NAME?" A poignant echo of how poorly JJ set up that exact same question in the first hour.

Anyways, yeah, this was really close to being an excellent spoof.
the empire never ended
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And the Knights of Ren turn out to be a big nothing.

Forget the idea that they are Luke's turned students. They get wiped out without a word of dialogue between them.
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Does one of them ever even use the force? Could've been The Black Order of this movie, if anyone behind the wheel had any idea what the actual movie was going to be before they shot.
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(12-29-2019, 04:56 AM)schwartz Wrote:
(12-28-2019, 01:04 PM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Sure it is, I just don’t see it as a bad thing. It’s pure space opera escapism.

The thing is, no matter how far you want to run down ANH, it doesn’t help TFA look any better. It has no identity, or ambition, beyond carbon copying that hollow spectacle from 40 years ago.

Sure, it’s definitely a cover song, but I don’t get hung up on that because ultimately it’s a fun ride. Or at least I had a good time.
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Finally got a chance to see this. What a wasted opportunity this entire Disney Wars trilogy has been. It hasn't really had a narrative as much as it has had a meta narrative. Filmmakers reacting to the original trilogy and the poor reception of the prequel trilogy. Filmmakers reacting to each other and the previous films in this sequel trilogy. Filmmakers reacting to reactions on social media. An ouroboros of filmmaking with no unifying vision.
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(12-29-2019, 09:45 AM)wasp Wrote: This movie was almost meta, right? Everything with Ghost Luke for starters, JJ might as well have had him start his conversation with Rey with "And now I am going to try to reconcile The Last Jedi's themes with this dumb-ass movie you are watching right now." Palpatine: "Find a planet they care about and destroy it! How about this one like 20 minutes earlier in this same movie, yeah, that will be fresh in their memories!" Good thing we got that line about how all the children were already taken off the planet. JJ can't even commit to killing the two side characters we met there. Two of many new side characters, added into this movie for the seemingly sole purpose of filling a Kelly Marie Tran-shaped hole. "Rose, you coming?" "No, sorry, I have to stay here and study these Destroyers so as to appease the angry Star Wars fanboys." "Oh, so, like, you're going to be our main sequel trilogy character that's hanging here with Leia, then?" "Sort of, actually I am gonna have to split my lines up with Charlie from Lost and Greg from Felicity." "Oh, JJ's boys, huh..." "Yeah, anyways, you go on ahead, you find yourself a nice black girl who shares your exact same background."

Haha, I remember thinking in TLJ that introducing Rose was a way of avoiding a black/white couple in Finn/Rey, which a) certainly could've been extrapolated from TFA had Johnson not focused on the connection between Rey and Kylo Ren and b) would've met with unpleasant reactions from a lot of racists. 

I don't think this actually happened, but I don't doubt that at some point some Disney exec or PR person was glad they never had to deal with it, given how pathetic their gay representation scene was.
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(12-29-2019, 09:55 AM)Felix Wrote: And the Knights of Ren turn out to be a big nothing.

Forget the idea that they are Luke's turned students. They get wiped out without a word of dialogue between them.

Actually, it turns out the Knights were NOT ex-students of Luke's school. Per the new Kylo Ren comic book, anyway, which appears to outright contradict a lot of things that have already been established in canon.

(12-29-2019, 10:25 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Sure, it’s definitely a cover song, but I don’t get hung up on that because ultimately it’s a fun ride. Or at least I had a good time.

I'm happy to stand with you as the loyal opposition in this thread.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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(12-29-2019, 11:59 AM)Belloq87 Wrote:
(12-29-2019, 10:25 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Sure, it’s definitely a cover song, but I don’t get hung up on that because ultimately it’s a fun ride. Or at least I had a good time.

I'm happy to stand with you as the loyal opposition in this thread.

[Image: giphy.gif]
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Too bad there's no .gif from the current film to express this!

I kid, glad somebody enjoyed it.
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I await the high quality gifs when home video hits!
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Rey being too lazy to dig a hole for the lightsabers like a normal person is just so Reyven.
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(12-28-2019, 04:52 PM)rexbanner Wrote: TFA comes out, and while the plot recycles ANH in a way that sits awkwardly in a direct sequel to ROTJ, he manages to hold back on remaking too many scenes. Aside from that film's inane decision to do a cover version of the trench run - complete with worried looks at Rebel headquarters - the echoes are obvious, but general. 

oh man... that's not how I felt about forwakens at all (at least after the initial introduction of its new characters, which was nice and new-ish)

forwakens was a remake of new hope by way of a remix tour of the original trilogy's greatest hits

the awfully arbitrary trench run/reactor core moments coupled with taking down shield generators... old mentors and dark warriors meeting on precarious platforms... I came out of that first showing having had a generally pleasant time from the taste of nostalgic warmth, but with a sense of arbitrary listlessness

risewalker was simply the confirmation of that feeling

AND TO BE FAIR, johnson's film is also a remake of EMPIRE by way of moments from ROTJ and whatnot.  But he does it with absolute vision and intent that went beyond "oooh star war!"
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(12-29-2019, 05:32 PM)Nooj Wrote: the awfully arbitrary trench run/reactor core moments coupled with taking down shield generators..

It had to have some kind of thermal oscillator.
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(gestures vaguely with hands)
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Oh Forwakens. I still vividly remember my conflicted feelings that opening night. From my sense of unease and distrust heading into the theater to a gradual sense of "Oh wow, he's pulling it off, I might have to eat crow on this" during the first 30-40 minutes...and then the shift happened. I started to get tired of the APPLAUSE SIGN introductions. I started to think "Did I MISS an episode in between? What in the hell is going on?" "This movie is about halfway over. What is it building to?" "Why are we suddenly focused on this implausible planet killer instead of searching for Luke?"

By the time the movie realized the running time was nearly done, and R2 woke up with the rest of the map, I wanted to laugh in derision. The audience broke out in applause and cheers at the end, and I just sat there, wondering what the fuck just happened and when the movie lost myself.

For 'Rise', I remember the light-speed skipping section and thinking "Oh jeez, this is Star Tours with crazier pacing"
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Location: LucasFilm, Summer 2018.

Abrams: Geez, SOLO is really underperforming! Did NOT expect that! Pew pew!
Terrio: Yeah, people really aren’t digging it!
Abrams: Weird. Anything specific being mentioned?
Terrio: People are straight up MOCKING that scene where a random bit player shows up at a crucial moment to reveal the origin of Han’s last name.
Abrams: Huh. Well, can’t see that being a problem for us!
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