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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Post-Release
You guys just don't like Skyfall because Casino Royale eclipses it by being the best Bond movie EVER.
(stares at Brad)
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CASINO ROYALE? Not in my top three.
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(01-12-2020, 02:52 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: CASINO ROYALE? Not in my top three.

You think I'm gonna actually believe that? You're STILL trolling with a King Bran avatar you're nothing but a one-trick shit disturber!
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I mean, it's no FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.
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And then you've got Spectre, objectively a bad Bond movie, but it's got the best train fight scene in the series, which previously belonged to one of the best in From Russia With Love.

Weird series.
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(01-12-2020, 12:15 AM)ChrisW Wrote: When we meet Luke in TLJ, he is broken.   He goes to the most u findable place to die AND disconnects himself from the force.  It's really the only narrative choice for the character that makes sense after JJ took him off the board for TFA. 

JJ "I felt the biggest surprise was how dark Luke was" Abrams would've dismissed his own set-up by having Luke say 'Yes it is time to come back' at the start of 8, and in interviews he and his co-writer would explain that seeing the lightsabre again galvanised him and that 'the Force was telling him it was time to return and help the new generation'. The rise of the First Order, how he spent his time, how he felt about Kylo Ren's fall - all that would've been skipped over.

(01-11-2020, 10:17 PM)bradito Wrote: I've come to the conclusion that I would enjoy it more if it weren't a Star Wars movie. TLJ is trying to serve two masters: deliver on the expectations of a Star Wars movie and upend the expectations of a Star Wars movie. As such, it under-delivers on both counts (to me, anyway) because its intentions are mutually exclusive.

I don't really get this: Star Wars is desperately limited if a) there has to be a shocking reveal about the protagonist's parentage, b) it needs to have a cackling old sorcerer as the main villain for the third part, and c) poorly thought through, improvised heroics always turn out well. 

I didn't watch Rey learn her parents were drunks, Snoke get killed, and Poe fuck up and think 'this fundamentally goes against how a Star Wars film should be going'. I thought, 'neat, they're doing new, dramatic stuff with the Star Wars conventions I enjoy'. For all the shit George Lucas got for rhyming moments in the prequels (and stuff like Obi-wan avoiding Jango Fett by hugging the asteroid now seems the height of subtlety compared to Jakku, Starkiller Base, and the Resistance), the prequels didn't go out of their way to establish a formula Star Wars films had to cling to. I don't think TLJ would've got half the backlash it did if TFA hadn't been such a nervous re-tread which primed audiences to expect stuff it neither promised nor earned.
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I love Skyfall AND Casino Royale.

SO THERE!
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(01-12-2020, 09:06 AM)MichaelM Wrote: I love Skyfall AND Casino Royale.

SO THERE!

Oh most people do sit down.
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Quote:For all the shit George Lucas got for rhyming moments in the prequels (and stuff like Obi-wan avoiding Jango Fett by hugging the asteroid now seems the height of subtlety compared to Jakku, Starkiller Base, and the Resistance), the prequels didn't go out of their way to establish a formula Star Wars films had to cling to. I don't think TLJ would've got half the backlash it did if TFA hadn't been such a nervous re-tread which primed audiences to expect stuff it neither promised nor earned.

This right here.

The prequels are still bad, but it's saying something that 2/3 of the sequel trilogy makes the prequels look far better in comparison.

TFA being a retread - which it certainly is - wouldn't be much, if any, of a problem if it had ultimately led to new destinations and stories. If Abrams and Kennedy had had an inkling of where Rey and Finn's stories were going to go. But they didn't.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(01-12-2020, 09:28 AM)MichaelM Wrote:
Quote:For all the shit George Lucas got for rhyming moments in the prequels (and stuff like Obi-wan avoiding Jango Fett by hugging the asteroid now seems the height of subtlety compared to Jakku, Starkiller Base, and the Resistance), the prequels didn't go out of their way to establish a formula Star Wars films had to cling to. I don't think TLJ would've got half the backlash it did if TFA hadn't been such a nervous re-tread which primed audiences to expect stuff it neither promised nor earned.

This right here.

The prequels are still bad, but it's saying something that 2/3 of the sequel trilogy makes the prequels look far better in comparison.

TFA being a retread - which it certainly is - wouldn't be much, if any, of a problem if it had ultimately led to new destinations and stories. If Abrams and Kennedy had had an inkling of where Rey and Finn's stories were going to go. But they didn't.

I mean, I think it’s worse than just not knowing where to go. Johnson saw the arrested development at work and did everything possible to push them into the deep and and force them to adapt. Somehow they managed not to swim or sink, and just have uncle Mickey drain the entire pool and then retreated to the basement to play with their old toys.

Honestly, TROS is so pervasively cowardly that it makes the Transformers series look audacious and challenging.
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(01-12-2020, 11:35 AM)schwartz Wrote: I mean, I think it’s worse than just not knowing where to go. Johnson saw the arrested development at work and did everything possible to push them into the deep and and force them to adapt. Somehow they managed not to swim or sink, and just have uncle Mickey drain the entire pool and then retreated to the basement to play with their old toys.

Honestly, TROS is so pervasively cowardly that it makes the Transformers series look audacious and challenging.

As far as perverse cowardice goes, it occurred to me the other day that Lucasfilm knows that TROS is going to be talked about and watched for decades - God knows massive dislike for some of its entries haven't stopped people loving the episodes they do like - and as a series it's one of Disney's prime assets. 

In that context, patting Rose on the shoulder (it's a fucking cold moment!) and giving her 2 minutes of screen time is going to age like milk kept under a radiator. As the TLJ hatred continues to dissipate and the novelty of TROS's existence fades, that's quickly going to look like the blatant and desperate pandering to racists and misogynists that it is. Abrams saying that casting Tran was 'the greatest thing' Johnson did back in the summer now also reads as a pretty intense bit of shade.
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Why do you keep on haunting MEEEEEEEEEE!?
Git' in under mah belly!
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I don’t mean this question to be condescending, but it’s a real one I have. Are people actually invested in Rose Tico as a character, or rather as a chit in an ongoing philosophical battle for the soul of Star Wars? Because as a character, I don’t know what more she had to achieve narratively, aside from get together with Finn or not get together with Finn, and that got answered pretty decisively.
Brigadier Cousins on PSN
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(01-12-2020, 03:26 PM)arjen rudd Wrote: I don’t mean this question to be condescending, but it’s a real one I have. Are people actually invested in Rose Tico as a character, or rather as a chit in an ongoing philosophical battle for the soul of Star Wars? Because as a character, I don’t know what more she had to achieve narratively, aside from get together with Finn or not get together with Finn, and that got answered pretty decisively.

I am not at all invested in Rose as a character, but I was still disgusted by how blatantly TROS treated her as a cultural chit, and how callously they threw it under the shittiest bus imaginable.
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Rose is pretty much a Leia type character, but coming from a mechanics bay instead of a royal household. She's a guiding light, angel type dealio, essentially flawless and aspirational.

Han and Leia had nothing to achieve narratively after ANH beyond the question of their romance, a question which was as answered as it ever needed to be by the looks they give each other during the finale. Poe (and even Finn, for the most part) had nothing to achieve after TFA. Most of the Avengers had nothing to achieve narratively after they Assembled. Folks still got invested in them somehow.

I think becoming invested in a character is as much about how much you see of yourself (or a version of yourself you want to become) in the character as it is about any future plot concerns.
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I didn't care for the character, though she's hardly more useless than Finn or Poe have been (and they all were potentially interesting, with likable actors in the roles). The degree to which she became some proxy kulturkampf thing, and assholes took it out on Tran, is un-fucking-conscionable. I do feel badly for her.

All that said, the complete shamelessness with which Rose got Poochie-d made me laugh out loud.
Our sanitariums are full of men who think they're Napoleon... Or God.
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Yeah, “having more to do” narratively is hardly the test, particularly since TROS does such a hard reset on any direct plot threads from the prior movie.  Only Rey and Kylo have more they “need” to do.

What is so egregious about benching Rose is not that there were specific things that the character still needed to do, but that there was so much spare material that she could easily have done.  Every line from Dominic Monaghan or Greg Grunberg is a slap in her face, and puts lie to the line about how they just didn’t have room for her to be involved.  Or she could have been included in the already overcrowded fetch quests, or gone with Lando to make that atrociously undercooked payoff seem like more of a thing. 

Hell, they couldn’t even be bothered to kill her off.
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Was thinking the same thing-- that they could've at least given her a noble death like her sister. That would be decried as "fridging" no doubt, but still preferable dramatically.

The fact that she couldn't be included in the main group's travels at the same time they introduce new characters in that with zero time to develop them-- including one that feels like a replacement love interest for Finn... you cannot tell me they weren't catering to fan rage. What a bunch of dicks.
Our sanitariums are full of men who think they're Napoleon... Or God.
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She didn't even warrant being distantly related to anybody in the SW canon. Chirrut's grandniece, or something!
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(01-12-2020, 03:26 PM)arjen rudd Wrote: I don’t mean this question to be condescending, but it’s a real one I have. Are people actually invested in Rose Tico as a character, or rather as a chit in an ongoing philosophical battle for the soul of Star Wars? Because as a character, I don’t know what more she had to achieve narratively, aside from get together with Finn or not get together with Finn, and that got answered pretty decisively.

Rose's homeworld was exploited for resources and her people enslaved by war profiteers. What more is left for Rose narratively? Take down those war profiteers.
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take risewalker back to canto bight so that she can put a fist through the rest of that town!

AW YEA BARRY!
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Jon M. Chu tweeted: "Ok @disneyplus. Put me in coach. Let's make this series happen. #RoseTicoDeservedBetter @starwars"

https://twitter.com/jonmchu/status/1210427021521633280
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OLD NEWS BARRY!
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Coming to Disney+ in 2021: "Rose Tico Deserved Better: A Star Wars Story."

She teams up with Baby Yoda when he's now like mid-30s Yoda.
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The war profiteers are already trying to stoke the fire for another conflict to take the place of First Order v. Resistance, this time with an all-new lineup of starfighters to market. Team Rose must identify and take down the nefarious leadership of the military industrial complex while also trying to prevent Archduke Ferdinand-esque triggering events.
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I can't remember who pointed it out, but JJ decided that Rose the mechanic should sit the mission out while giving the Falcon a new mechanic who didn't even have any arms.

And let's not even bring up that they had the Asian character at home studying and gave the Latino character ties to drug running.
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(01-13-2020, 01:58 AM)Bucho Wrote: And let's not even bring up that they had the Asian character at home studying and gave the Latino character ties to drug running.

I think when TFA premiered JJ's heart sank and he broke out in a cold sweat, panicking, going 'Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck I forgot to make my charismatic hot-shot pilot who's charmingly sure of himself tied to smuggling in some way, this is ruined, it's not Star Wars!'
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I seriously doubt that JJ and Terrio intentionally intended any of that to come through as explicit commentary. I mean obviously not. But they're definitely unintentionally racist in that way that clueless whities like me sometimes are.

JJ came from MONEY. He's a poor sheltered Jewish nerd boy forgive him! He doesn't know any better!
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(01-13-2020, 02:16 AM)freeman Wrote: I seriously doubt that JJ and Terrio intentionally intended any of that to come through as explicit commentary.  I mean obviously not.  But they're definitely unintentionally racist in that way that clueless whities like me sometimes are.  

JJ came from MONEY.  He's a poor sheltered Jewish nerd boy forgive him!  He doesn't know any better!

I mean, I'd be inclined to chalk it up to general cluelessness, except that this movie is super aware of what it is running away from.
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It's a like a meta-commentary on Rey's mindless fear in TFA. Unthinkingly running away from what they don't want to face. Instead of facing the change that makes you uncomfortable, just run away until the final scene!
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You know who should star alongside Kelly Marie Tran in the Rose Disney+ series? Jessica Henwick. She went through a six month audition process for the role of Rey and was devastated when she didn't get it. She ended up with a small role as Jessika Pava, part of Poe's X-Wing squadron, in THE FORCE AWAKENS. The character never appeared in THE LAST JEDI or THE RISE OF SKYWALKER, but canonically she's still alive. Have her join the cause as the pilot of Rose's starship.
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(01-12-2020, 04:12 PM)Bucho Wrote: Rose is pretty much a Leia type character, but coming from a mechanics bay instead of a royal household. She's a guiding light, angel type dealio, essentially flawless and aspirational.

Yeah, while she's not a developed enough character to have clear flaws, as a supporting character it's enough simply that she's not amazing at everything. Her job is to be a moral compass for Finn, to shed light on a different sort of past experience, and to communicate a theme. There wouldn't have been a hell of a lot for her to do going into TLJ, but Leia and Han, Chewbacca, and the droids didn't have a hell of a lot to do going into the last 2/3rds of ROTJ, and Lucas found stuff for them to do. The most obvious analogue to Rose I can think of in recent (er, well, to me) cinema is Faramir. His arc takes place in Two Towers, but he still gets some good, dramatic stuff to do in Return of the King. 

Weirdly, Abrams and Terrio missed the obvious, satisfying cap of Finn's arc which would've been to muster a rebellion amongst the First Order stormtroopers (infiltrating the First Order, taking advantage of their established weaknesses, and undermining them from within would've been a better shape for the overall plot than Palpatine's return, IMO) and they put Poe's leadership storyline on the backburner until the last quarter of the film. Rose, who of the 'main' characters least neatly matches a character from the OT, was doomed if Abrams was struggling to come up with stuff for his own characters to do.
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Except that it's not just that Rose doesn't get a major plotline of her own in TROS. There are new, entirely extraneous characters spewing exposition at the Rebel base while she looks on mutely. She could have easily been the one know about Babu Frik, but instead Abrams invented Zori Bliss. She could have led the charge with Finn, but he invented Danna (I think her name was?).

There is ample room in the film as it exists for Rose to do more. The inescapable conclusion is that JJ did not want to use her. The charitable interpretation is that this was spite against Johnson's character for junking so much of his TFA "set up". The more obvious one is that he wanted to avoid getting reddit mad at him.
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The new characters introduced in THE RISE OF SKYWALKER, Jannah (Naomi Ackie), Zorii Bliss (Keri Russell), Beaumont Kin (Dominic Monaghan), Babu Frik (Shirley Henderson) and D-O (J.J. Abrams), would be good candidates to fill out Rose's anti-war-profiteer task force.
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(01-13-2020, 03:47 PM)schwartz Wrote: Except that it's not just that Rose doesn't get a major plotline of her own in TROS.  There are new, entirely extraneous characters spewing exposition at the Rebel base while she looks on mutely.  She could have easily been the one know about Babu Frik, but instead Abrams invented Zori Bliss.  She could have led the charge with Finn, but he invented Danna (I think her name was?).  

There is ample room in the film as it exists for Rose to do more.  The inescapable conclusion is that JJ did not want to use her.  The charitable interpretation is that this was spite against Johnson's character for junking so much of his TFA "set up".  The more obvious one is that he wanted to avoid getting reddit mad at him.

It really is inescapable that's what happened.   I think that thread of cowardice from Disney in face of Reddit and Youtube is what makes TROS the worst of not just this trilogy but also maybe the worst Star Wars....period.   Say what you will about the prequels, but those movies were bold.   TROS is just oatmeal.
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