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INDIANA JONES and you're actually fucking serious pre-release discussion
(01-14-2021, 03:07 AM)freeman Wrote: Maybe that perspective helped generate the "John is a huge pain in the ass" dynamic, or the Gruber McClane meet and greet. 
(shrug)

That's how I read it.
"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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Well....he really is the boogeyman for them, evading capture and picking them off one at a time. The bad guys even get the big Ode to Joy fan fare when they finally make it into the vault. Looking at it from the perspective of "it all would've gone probably perfectly if not for this one little barefoot problem they missed" isn't really a reverse reading of it though. I don't think I've ever felt like McClane WASN'T the protagonist. But like Nooj said, whatever leads them to making movies like Die Hard is fine with me....misunderstandingor not..

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Do you weirdos think McClane's the villain in the sequels, too?

Jesus Christ, this is not rocket science.
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It really isn't, so I don't get why you're being so literal about this protagonist thing. When you see a "fall in line" sign at the bank do you tip over and fall onto the ground?
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Oh fuck, the world's foremost expert in being wrong all the time has entered the chat.
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but it IS rocket science!
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No, u are!
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(01-17-2021, 11:48 PM)bradito Wrote: Oh fuck, the world's foremost expert in being wrong all the time has entered the chat.

I thought my "thing" was everyone was shocked how much they agree with me. Get your shit together.
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I said that there has never been a point in history at any time where I've felt McClane was NOT the protagonist. Is that disagreeing with you?

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The real question is: who's the protagonist of this thread?
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(01-14-2021, 02:11 AM)hammerhead Wrote: According to the screenwriters, their big breakthrough was to approach Gruber as protagonist and McClane as antagonist.


What a load of shit.

I am pretty sure creatives, particularly as they age, like to throw out random paradigm shifting comments about their creative process either to amuse themselves or because they have gone down a rabbit hole of their own bullshit.

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The fact that Overlord and Brad are both hard in the paint against this only makes me like this idea even more. CLEARLY there must be something to this.
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I appreciate the hero-villain trajectory of the Die Hard AND Rambo movies.

John and...John, don't go full enemy boomer until their part 5's respectively.

Vs. Russia...


...and Mexico....
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(01-18-2021, 08:59 AM)Overlord Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 02:11 AM)hammerhead Wrote: According to the screenwriters, their big breakthrough was to approach Gruber as protagonist and McClane as antagonist.


What a load of shit.

I am pretty sure creatives, particularly as they age, like to throw out random paradigm shifting comments about their creative process either to amuse themselves or because they have gone down a rabbit hole of their own bullshit.

I'm still not saying I share this POV about the movie but this is not a new take on anything. I remember hearing this a long LONG time ago. Like...2000 or so? Long enough ago that I remember it from a DVD extra or a commentary...and I haven't perused special features on movies in about that long. That's still 12 or so years after the movie was released. Just that it's not something someone just started saying. 

How did it come around to this anyway? What a weird tangent lulz..

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Surely there is a DIE HARD thread better suited for this discussion, no?
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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This is the thread for all 80's films Smile
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it was on the text commentary for the first DVD release of DIE HARD in 2001

the FIVE STAR COLLECTION!!!!

at least that's where I first saw de Souza's thoughts on it (dunno if he'd talked about it before that)

really educational DVD! I learned lots of things


I mean, it's essentially the stated approach that the Russos/Markus/McFeely took with Thanos in order to figure out a structure for INFINITY WAR
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He's simply wrong about his own script or has been replaced with a pod person. The DVD is not educational. Please discard.
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I'm sure I sold that DVD off at some point

or it's in some box somewhere

what should I do with INFINITY WAR and its commentary track, brad???
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I ultimately came to the conclusion that Thanos and his minions function as "the protagonist" of "Infinity War." So there!
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but don't Hans and his minions serve a similar function within DIE HARD?

at least in terms of the marvel movies, things are just going fine... people are living their lives...

and then Thanos comes into nakatomi plaza making moves to steal 6 infinity stones worth of bearer bonds from various vaults across the galaxy?

and then a buncha john mclavengers try to be the fly in his ointment?

and then Thans Gruber snaps his finger and has Theo wipe out half of the world's monetary value!
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If you're arguing that Die Hard and Infinity War are the same movie basically, you're wrong.

I really wish you guys would read books on this stuff. Half the time, I feel like I'm deprogramming QAnon wackos.
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I'm just playing with brad!

I'm mostly curious as to at what point do you give the idea of INFINTY WAR's approach to the 'villain as antagonist' a pass, but not DIE HARD.

I don't actually think Hans Gruber is the protagonist of DIE HARD. I merely accept that deSouza says that's how he approached writing the movie.

I actually think the Russo's stated framing of Thanos as the hero of his own story as an interesting, but mixed-bag approach.
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I think that's why I didn't like Infinity War as much as some. I don't want to spend 10 years building up to it and then get a movie where the characters I love are acting as support to some new purple jagoff.

And back on topic, when you happen to catch some of Last Crusade on TV and you've had a couple of drinks and Indy and his dad mention his mother's illness and it's the night before your parents are scheduled to get their Covid vaccinations...you feel emotions.
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(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Nooj Wrote: I don't actually think Hans Gruber is the protagonist of DIE HARD. 

Oh thank God!!
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Al Powell is the protagonist of Die Hard. Everyone knows this.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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He does have a character arc. A weird one, but still.
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(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Nooj Wrote: I'm mostly curious as to at what point do you give the idea of INFINTY WAR's approach to the 'villain as antagonist' a pass, but not DIE HARD.

don't forget me, brad!

is it because Thanos apparently has some emotional component to his storyline (which I just don't get onboard with) while Hans does not?
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What the fuck is this Die Hard shit?
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it's an action/thriller/adventure movie that was released in 1988 by 20th Century Fox

starring bruce willis and alan rickman

directed by john mctiernan
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(01-18-2021, 06:05 PM)Nooj Wrote: it's an action/thriller/adventure movie that was released in 1988 by 20th Century Fox

starring bruce willis and alan rickman

directed by john mctiernan

[Image: tenor.gif]
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(01-18-2021, 06:03 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Nooj Wrote: I'm mostly curious as to at what point do you give the idea of INFINTY WAR's approach to the 'villain as antagonist' a pass, but not DIE HARD.

don't forget me, brad!

is it because Thanos apparently has some emotional component to his storyline (which I just don't get onboard with) while Hans does not?

Simply put, a protagonist in a story typically performs between 20-23 specific actions over the course of a narrative, and they proactively drive the story forward. An antagonist will light the fuse (in the form of the inciting incident), but it's the protagonist who's trying to stop the bomb from going off, either literally or figuratively.

Sometimes a movie will begin with the antagonist in order to set up the genre/tone of a film before the main character appears. But usually we follow the protagonist from the first scene to the last, like in "Die Hard" or "Infinity War." And all three Indiana Jones movies, too!

Because the team is fractured in "Infinity War," none of the Avengers appears often enough to fill the role of the protagonist. So in the third one, the Avengers act as an antagonistic force against Thanos (or his henchpersons) whose goal is of course to acquire the Maguffin and balance the universe. The conflict becomes deeply personal to him, and he goes through an emotional arc over the course of the story. 

Hans Gruber doesn't show up until late in Act I, he shoots an unarmed man in the face (kind of the antithesis of a "save the cat" scene), he takes hostages who he fully intends to kill in order to cover his tracks, he executes a yuppie, he orders the SWAT to be brutally wounded, and he and his men try to kill John McClane and his wife while he attempts to steal a bunch of money that he didn't earn. He also dies and doesn't grow or change. That's not really the archetype for a protagonist in a thrilling action adventure, but it does sound like a formidable villain.

Fin.
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What happens if you need 24 specific actions? Do they sell upgrades, or do you have to buy a second protagonist?
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(01-18-2021, 06:53 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: What happens if you need 24 specific actions? Do they sell upgrades, or do you have to buy a second protagonist?

You need the DLC for that.
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(01-18-2021, 06:53 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: What happens if you need 24 specific actions? Do they sell upgrades, or do you have to buy a second protagonist?

I mean, then you end up with Return of the King.
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