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CHUD LIST: You Got It All Wrong!
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Originally Posted by EvilTwin
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Maybe when we see the rest of the list we'll be able to judge better, but SotL still seems an odd choice to start off with. Yeah, it's not one of the 30 best films of all time, but it's an entertaining film that manages combines excellent performances with genuine chills and doesn't insult your intelligence. It's not its fault that it had weak competition for major categories that year. Or that it's been endlessly parodied. If it's overrated, it's only slightly. A great movie rather than an all time great. By that standard, I expect The Matrix to make an appearance.

Why is this so hard to understand? Being overrated is not a fault of the film itself. It's a fault of the audience or the academy or whoever.

I'd be surprised if the Matrix doesn't show up eventually.
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Scwartz got it. This isn't to say the movie is bad, it's just that the hype around is WAY out of proportion to what it is.
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http://chud.com/articles/articles/14...TWO/Page1.html
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Great article, Russ. I don't have anything to say other than that.

But the first person to make a "Diva didn't get it" joke will have insta-death visited upon you.
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If this entry had only occured two Netflix slots later I could've added something to this discussion.

*groans*
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Damnit, all this appreication for Red Dragon and Hannibal, and suddenly I feel like I need to watch them again- I liked Hannibal on a popcorn level, but I don't remember much outside of the brain munching scene, and Red Dragon I just completely forgot.

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Originally Posted by Nick Nunziata
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Very, very interesting picks so far.

I actually like the fact the choices so far have been borderline- you guys seem to be aiming for debate rather than polemic. Which is cool.

I enjoyed Battle Royale when I saw it, but appreciated it on nothing more than a visceral level- although maybe it's just me, but for a movie that milks the Basketball Diaries meets Runnings Man scenario for most of what it's worth, the movie isn't very rewatchable. Though I think this movie falls into the Overblown category. What audience rates this movie that highly anyway? Aint' it cool basement dwellers that like to eroticize all things Japanese?

Oh yea: I hope Boondock Saints makes it onto this list, slotted for the 'what the fuck' category of course (hell I wouldn't be surprised if that category was created with that movie in mind). It could use a good thrashing by the chud staff.
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Wow, now I know you guys a serious. What a great choice. I mean, I love the movie and all, but you guys got it spot on.
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To me it goes like this:

Silence of the Lambs is a great movie.
Hannibal is entertaining and is pretty to look at.
Red Dragon is pretty.

I think the main problem with Dragon is that it has absolutely no zest. Norton is bored out of his mind, Kietel doesn't give a shit and Fiennes is miscast. Fuck even Hoffman, who played the part well, seemed bored. It's a movie with a great cast put in the wrong roles. It's a pretty movie to look at (colorization wise, not directorial flourishes) and the script is very faithful to the book but there isn't shit on screen. To me Manhunter had flair and no substance, Red Dragon substance and not a lick of flair.
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I thought Fiennes did a helluva job as Dolarhyde.

And I don't think Ratner's (or Mann's) is a faithful adaptation. In order to do a faithful adaptation, you have to show a weirder Graham. One that seems about one knife-slice short of being a serial killer his dang self. He also has to knowingly place Lounds in harm's way. And Lounds, before dying, has to know this. Both movies shied away from showing this side of Graham. But at least Peterson's performance seems more man-on-edge. Norton, as you wrote, does seem bored.
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Yeah, I kind of agree with Battle Royale. I read the book first and found that much more compelling than the movie. Kitano's fixation on the surviving girl in the film seemed like a weird addition that added nothing to the story. Overall, though, I think it's just a concept that works better in a novel. Which is kind of why I'm worried about the proposed "Long Walk" movie.
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I have to side with the dissenter here again. I love the movie's portrait of teenage competition and social interactions with societal controls stripped away. Given the opportunity to kill one another, they use their preexisting associations as excuses. I'd hardly say that "There's little actual satire or commentary here". Have messages about teenage cruelty been delivered better before? Certainly, in both the aforementioned Lord of the Flies and also, I think, in DePalma's Carrie. But I don't think that devalues Battle Royale.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick
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I thought Fiennes did a helluva job as Dolarhyde.

And I don't think Ratner's (or Mann's) is a faithful adaptation. In order to do a faithful adaptation, you have to show a weirder Graham. One that seems about one knife-slice short of being a serial killer his dang self. He also has to knowingly place Lounds in harm's way. And Lounds, before dying, has to know this. Both movies shied away from showing this side of Graham. But at least Peterson's performance seems more man-on-edge. Norton, as you wrote, does seem bored.

Petersen's performance is way underrated. He played "haunted, but competent" very well.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick
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I thought Fiennes did a helluva job as Dolarhyde.

And I don't think Ratner's (or Mann's) is a faithful adaptation. In order to do a faithful adaptation, you have to show a weirder Graham. One that seems about one knife-slice short of being a serial killer his dang self. He also has to knowingly place Lounds in harm's way. And Lounds, before dying, has to know this. Both movies shied away from showing this side of Graham. But at least Peterson's performance seems more man-on-edge. Norton, as you wrote, does seem bored.

Agreed. I thought that the combo of Feinnes and Watson elevated the entire film. Every time they were onscreen, it felt like a completely different, far superior movie. One without Norton quietly cashing a paycheck.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick
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I thought Fiennes did a helluva job as Dolarhyde.

And I don't think Ratner's (or Mann's) is a faithful adaptation. In order to do a faithful adaptation, you have to show a weirder Graham. One that seems about one knife-slice short of being a serial killer his dang self. He also has to knowingly place Lounds in harm's way. And Lounds, before dying, has to know this. Both movies shied away from showing this side of Graham. But at least Peterson's performance seems more man-on-edge. Norton, as you wrote, does seem bored.

I think he did a great job as well but I felt he lacked the physical presence that Dolarhyde possessed. He's basically a freak in the book, the kind of guy that looks like he could benchpress a car. While the performance is most important the physical nature of Dolarhyde is such an important aspect to the character that I felt the fact that Fiennes looked like he just recently hit the gym kind of took away from it.

I thought Graham did knowingly fuck over Lounds in the Ratner adaptation but I haven't seen it in five years. You're right about the character being fucked as he really was one tit away from going nuts himself.
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That's actually one of my problems with Manhunter. We're told a lot about how on-the-edge Graham is, but it's never really felt.
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But, again, Norton has that scene at the end with his kid, which is great.
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Wow. Good job, guys. Two for two in my book. I like and own both movies but totally agree in overrated, overblown status. I figure eventually we'll get to some of my favorites (I expect at least one Wes Anderson flick and as everyone else seems to have mentioned, Fight Club) but I would like to see Being John Malkovich on there. Never liked it, never will. I look forward to more pissing and moaning from the masses. Great series.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by mediumdave
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but I would like to see Being John Malkovich on there. Never liked it, never will.

Well that's just crazy.

I love the "never will" part. It shows how open to growth and change you are.
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Although I had misgivings about Silence Of The Lambs, I agree 100% with Battle Royale being overrated. Great premise aside it just never clicked for me. I got what it tried to say, I think, but its effect was completely ephemeral. Nothing the movie did stuck with me.
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I never rated BATTLE ROYALE that highly - it's an interesting idea, but the execution isn't compelling. Ultimately I think it wants to be both shocking and transgressive, but in fact it's neither one nor the other. In this context it's easy to see how some people would over-rate it.
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While I think they're dead-on about Silence of The Lambs, I dissent on BR. Not that I think it's the greatest Asian cinema has to offer, but I do think it's pretty excellent and some of the criticisms labeled against it are unfair/wrong.

My biggest beef with the film is that it can be waay too hokey in the way that only Asian films can (see the scene where Nobu and his bad-boy friend are talking about girls, strumming the guitar). But while I'll admit that the commentary was handled poorly at times, to say there was none strikes me as surprisingly obtuse. Here is a world where the adults have become so afraid of their youth that they've gone to these ridiculous measures to prove that they're still in control, and to show their children (who have taken modernity for granted) that they must earn their spot in it. They must show that they are worth this life by fighting for their place. An obvious reflection of modern Japanese anxieties toward a spoiled and sometimes frightening generation. It may be a bad metaphor, but it's the one the filmmaker chose.

Kitano has a special relationship with Noriko, and paints that ridiculous painting, because she represents what is still pure and good in the youth. More broadly she represents the love adults still have for their children, and why they love them despite their fears (hope).
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wow. i don't really want to touch this debate. i loved BR when i saw it a few years back, but it's a hard flick to defend, especially given the oddball, culturally exclusive Asian extremes that portray its themes. i definitely think it's too ballsy to be written off though.
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Two for two horseshit selections. Battle Royale is a blast from start to finish. It's a violent manga made flesh, and for me it hits just the right notes between satire and mayhem. Are you guys actually going to be deflating any of the copious artwank disasters that have been critically bloated, or is this going to be another's of Chud's increasingly dull 'we're not geeks, honest!' therapy sessions?
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Ok, this one I can get behind. I still enjoy the film, but each subsequent viewing, the teen angst grates on me (it's necessary, yeah--they are teenagers--but not dramatized to this insane degree), and by the end, I continue to feel like it doesn't live up to the promise of its wonderful premise, instead opting for a well-directed, entertaining survival film. Which isn't a bad thing, really. But a film idea this loaded deserves more.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by birdie
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Two for two horseshit selections. Battle Royale is a blast from start to finish. It's a violent manga made flesh, and for me it hits just the right notes between satire and mayhem. Are you guys actually going to be deflating any of the copious artwank disasters that have been critically bloated, or is this going to be another's of Chud's increasingly dull 'we're not geeks, honest!' therapy sessions?

one website can't make up for whatever malevolent spirit haunted you as a child and filled you with fear and sadness. I honestly can't remember a post from you that wasn't seasoned with prickdom.
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Dangit... I still haven't seen Battle Royale, but I've heard and read so much about it that I feel like I might as well have. I had even borrowed it from a friend once, so looking back I don't know why it wasn't watched. Oh well, mostly I wanted to chime in once again to say how great this is so far. Uh, carry on...
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I still need further elaboration on how a film's public reception effects the film itself. Unless a movie is being grossly misinterpreted (ie-Crash, American History X), this list is kind of stupid.
So far your arguments only boil down to "Eh, it was good but it wasn't all that."
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg David
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Well that's just crazy.

I love the "never will" part. It shows how open to growth and change you are.

What do you mean by that last part ? I don't care for the movie that much either, are you suggesting that if I watch it a few times more it will suddenly make me "get it"?
Not trying to be a douche, I just dont get what you mean by that.
I dont like the movie for very specific reasons...I dont think its a shitty movie, I just dont like it. Are repeated viewings supposed to suddenly change my mind or something?
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I wouldn't call BATTLE ROYALE overrated as I don't think there's anyone outside of the film geek community who even knows it exists. What it does have is some fun kills, a little social satire, and a mostly enjoyable story. It's not one I own but I don't think it's got enough presence out there to be overrated.

If OLDBOY shows up on this list, though, heads will fucking roll.
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double post
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Nunziata
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one website can't make up for whatever malevolent spirit haunted you as a child and filled you with fear and sadness. I honestly can't remember a post from you that wasn't seasoned with prickdom.

The feeling is entireley mutual, and doesn't answer the question. It's a good idea for a list, but what's the point if you are aiming at movies that seem entireley to provoke a reaction, with very weak arguments (Silence, very few assenting voices here) or which has bareley been seen outside genre/geek circles (BR)?
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Quote:

Originally Posted by birdie
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The feeling is entireley mutual, and doesn't answer the question.

If you dislike the site that much, why are you sticking around? The obvious answer is that you're trolling. However, if it's something more than that, there is a big internet out there for you to explore.


Take the piss out of the staff's choices if you need to, but you're making assumptions about the list before it's entirely released.

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Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny
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If OLDBOY shows up on this list, though, heads will fucking roll.

For truth!
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Also, a lot of words are spelled like this: bareLY, entireLY. Just food for thought.
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I'm not 'taking the piss' out of their choices, they just seem kind of strange in the context of what the list states that it's attempting to do. But you're right about waiting to see the rest. My apolologies.
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Great Idea for a column!

I totally agree BR is overated. While the argument that outside the "geek community" its unheard of is valid, the problem is, inside said community its over praised to the nth degree. It's a nice idea and executed well but even with my limited knowledge of Asian cinema i know there are better films out there.
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