Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Confessions of a West Wing virgin...
#36
Yeah, Lowe was getting first billing in the first season -- Sam was supposed to be the main character.
Reply
#37
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
View Post
Yeah, Lowe was getting first billing in the first season -- Sam was supposed to be the main character.

On the commentary either Sorkin or Schlamme said that it was an ensemble and there were to be no leads. Now whether there were promises made to Lowe I have no idea but it seems that they always intended on ensemble even after Bartlett was added as a regular (which was after the pilot was shot but befire it was aired). Also, pretty sure that Lowe got first billing due to alphabet.
Reply
#38
BTW, just finished watching And It's Surely... loved CJ dressing down the general plus Larouquette is a god.

As much as I think Two Cathedrals is the best episode I still think Shibboleth is my favourite of season two. Or at least the most re-watchable. TC is so hard on the emotions.
Reply
#39
Well, Lowe comes first all the way into the third season while everyone else but Sheen is alphabetical.
Reply
#40
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan S~
View Post
BTW, just finished watching And It's Surely... loved CJ dressing down the general plus Larouquette is a god.

This is where we're up to now, had absolutely no idea Laroquette was in this, so when he bursts in with the cricket bat screaming I literally pissed myself laughing and started to cheer - fucking loved Larroquette ever since Night Court.

"I should be on a beach now being handed drinks with little umbrellas in them!"

CJ dressing down the General was absolute slice-of-fried-gold


...also it's interesting to the Sorkin writing a sympathetic Republican in Ainsley Hayes, honestly Im still not sure if I like her (tho that may be me), but when Sam fires those two asshole Dem lawyers for being so utterly horrible to her and the episode ends with him, Toby, CJ and Josh in her office singing HMS Pinafore, that may be one of the more heart-warming episode ends so far.

Loving this show SO MUCH, but I think I may need to take a break for a week or so, we watched a half dozen eps yesterday and the missus is reaching a point where she's finding the politics of it a tad dense.

I'm happy to wait because I want this experience to last as long as possible.
Reply
#41
One of the West Wing script books goes into why Lowe left, and yes, it did have to do with the show becoming less about Sam, more about the ensemble, and Lowe (rightfully so) feeling like he was being shafted in terms of good storylines. You look at something like "Somebody's Going To Emergency, Somebody's Going To Jail" or "Gailelo" or even "10,000 Airplanes" and you can see that Lowe was more than capable of bringing it.
Reply
#42
I'd say the moment everyone falls in love with Ainsley Hayes is usually when these six words pop into the show:

"Blame It On The Bossa Nova".

On a different note, am I the only one who considers "24 Hours In America" to pretty much be West Wing: The Movie? 90 minutes of some of the craziest and best shit on the show, ever. "You mean we changed TIME ZONES?" and "I'm Toby Zeigler. I work at The White House." and the payoff that brings are great bits, up there with everything else, and then the twist it pulls on you at the end, and Toby's speech in the last couple of minutes about how we should be electing people that inspire us and move us... it's fucking amazing.
Reply
#43
Oddly my favorite Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.
Reply
#44
Best moment from 20 Hours is when the kids are like "How many babies did you guys kill today?"
Reply
#45
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
View Post
Oddly my favorie Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.

Her obsession with food kills me. After delivering a smackdown to her Republican colleagues she asks if she can have a muffin.

Ainsley is a great character. A dyed in the wool Republican who can actually explain her beliefs and her reason for being against the Democrats in a calm and rational fashion. Though her line about Democrats not liking people who like guns was weak.
Reply
#46
Quote:

Originally Posted by RathBandu
View Post
Also, I always thought that one of the reasons Lowe walked is that he never got a Christmas episode, which basically became the Emmy Showcase episodes after Schiff won. The pretty-terrible Holy Night from season four should have been his, but nooo, we got the revelation that Toby's dad used to kill people. That, to me, was a bigger WTF than Leo at the end of season six.

I usually despise holiday themed episodes, but always loved the Christmas eps on WW. Something about the way they brought in different music that I wouldn't give a second thought of listening to on a normal day, but was really lovely when tied into a Christmas episode. Always loved it.

I see some guys here had a thing for Ainsley, but something about Amy Gardner (Mary Louise Parker) just works for me....
Reply
#47
Threadsurrection!

I've just been rewatching the Ziegler leak episodes. I hate them, it's a terrible way to handle the character. But here's my problem with Rath's version:
If Toby is covering for CJ, it sort of rescues Toby from an out of character betrayal, but if fucking ruins CJ, enough for me to not like her, and she's also one of my favorites. Sure, no way Toby betrays Bartlett like that, but also no way CJ lets Toby burn like that. I can see him falling on his sword for her, but I can't for a second see her letting him do it. I hate how Bartlett handles it all too.

Sure it's inherently better TV than Season 5, but man does it irritate! But hey, love the McCain vs Obama stuff. It's actually all very striking.
Reply
#48
I've been re-watching the Sorkin years for about the 8th time and I'm at "18th & Potomac". I absolutely love the way that Donna lets Josh know that she is aware of the President's medical issues. I also kinda feel for Sam throughout this episode, he gets beaten around by C.J. and the First Lady, who both decide to take out their anger & frustration on the poor guy.
Reply
#49
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
View Post
Oddly my favorite Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.

I always thought that the reason her & Sam took forever to bring the food back was because they secretly had something going on, that they were fooling around. His story about spilling the coffee a few times never seemed kosher to me.
Reply
#50
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Cameo
View Post
On a different note, am I the only one who considers "24 Hours In America" to pretty much be West Wing: The Movie? 90 minutes of some of the craziest and best shit on the show, ever. "You mean we changed TIME ZONES?" and "I'm Toby Zeigler. I work at The White House." and the payoff that brings are great bits, up there with everything else, and then the twist it pulls on you at the end, and Toby's speech in the last couple of minutes about how we should be electing people that inspire us and move us... it's fucking amazing.

We just watched this last night, and this is spot on. If you hadn't watched any of the previous three seasons, you could watch this episode and know what the show's all about. Donna being asked how long Toby and Josh will need to get over the whole time zone thing followed by Toby attacking the guard rail with a branch while Josh storms down the road is just brilliant. And Charlie's smackdown on Andrew when he calls CJ a bitch is epic.
Reply
#51
I find it hilarious how *spoilers* some people are actually trying to say Toby never leaked the the information about the military space shuttle leak solely because they never agreed with it. So he was covering for CJ, even though he walked into her office and said CJ...the..the leak...CJ...I got a lawyer...I got a lawyer...I did it. CJ is shocked and basically disgusted, cuts Toby off and tells him not to speak without council present. Everybody and their mother knows that within the shows previous background and history CJ would be the more likely person to leak serious information - didn't she leak something about women brutality in some foreign country once? But it doesn't change the fact that shows writers made him the leaker, even if Schiff has attempted to convince himself otherwise.
Reply
#52
Toby saying he's the leaker doesn't mean he actually is.
Reply
#53
Toby was the leaker. It was just a horrible storyline, which somehow topped the storyline that C.J. became Chief of Staff, which was laughable.
Reply
#54
The only reason they made CJ Chief of Staff was to free up Josh to run the Santos campaign.
Reply
#55
More *spoilers* Saying Toby wasn't the leaker is wishful thinking and being completely naive. It wasn't CJ. That is 100% guaranteed. She basically pleaded to Brock to reveal his source so he wouldn't have to go to jail. She was upset at Toby when he revealed he "did it". So I guess she was upset because he was going down for something she did? Completely ludicrous. So was it David, his astronaut brother, who Toby claimed would insist on sacrificing himself to protect a national security? I guess that was all a part of his big plan to divert attention away from him. I know there is a lot of fans that don't like what happened to Toby - I'm certainly in the upper echelon - but being delusional about what happened is unwarranted. I suppose a legion of West Wing fans could write a fan-flick Season 8 so they can retcon events to their liking. Maybe we can bring Mandy back!
Reply
#56
Well, I just watched that Toby/CJ sequence like three days ago, and it's kind of surprising how easy it would be to make the argument that Toby is lying for her and CJ is just upset that he's doing it. She doesn't get pissed off, she starts to cry. I agree that the official version is Toby leaked, but the scene in question almost seems like they want to you to have it your way, especially if you're Richard Schiff. The truth is neither version is any good, with the Toby leaked version being slightly better, because while it's a bullshit plotline for Toby, it's an even worse plotline to have CJ let him do it.
Reply
#57
Quote:

Originally Posted by heLL pAso
View Post
I know there is a lot of fans that don't like what happened to Toby - I'm certainly in the upper echelon - but being delusional about what happened is unwarranted. I suppose a legion of West Wing fans could write a fan-flick Season 8 so they can retcon events to their liking. Maybe we can bring Mandy back!

While I agree with you, let's be fair. Even Richard Schiff had to make a story for himself aboutToby was covering for someone, because he felt the plotline wasn't something Toby would do otherwise. For some reason, I suppose he has thought more about Toby as a character than any of us.
Reply
#58
Here's where I bring Rath's rage. I saw the famous Two Cathedral's the other day. Um, wow, that was..pretty bad.

He yelled at god in latin. It was ridiculous!

I think the cathedral scene was overblown self-important scenery-chewing that robbed the episode of any sense of genuine emotion. You can yell at him in any language you want, but yelling at him in latin stinks of a writer trying to be all pretentious rather than coming from a true emotional place. Who takes the time to translate their heartfelt rant about the cruelty of fate into a dead language if what they're meant to be conveying is true raw emotion?

It sucked. I hated it.
Reply
#59
Maybe someone who speaks latin fairly fluently, is a devout Catholic, and knows his history well enough to know that the official language used by the Catholic Church prior to Vatican 2 was, in fact, latin?
Reply
#60
He's old, erudite, and Catholic. He doesn't have to "translate," because he already knows these phrases about God and justice by heart. In Bartlet's mind, it would have been translating if he had put them into English, since that's not where they started and that's not how he learned them in school. And they were only a couple of phrases, not the whole rant.
Reply
#61
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthLowbudget@
View Post
Maybe someone who speaks latin fairly fluently, is a devout Catholic, and knows his history well enough to know that the official language used by the Catholic Church prior to Vatican 2 was, in fact, latin?

What he said, also, he's cursing God in God's "own tongue" (as he understands it via his Catholicism). And as that and previous episodes have established, Bartlet chose Catholicsim and even went to Notre Dame with plans to enter the priesthood. So, in this rage and frustration, it makes sense that he would profane God in his own language. (Part of that comes from Sorkin's explanation, part of it is my own interpretation.)

That's how low he's sunk in that scene -- that's how low the events since the State of the Union have brought him. Here's this deeply devout man, this deeply faithful man, who we can believe's been praying to God for many nights, and the Almighty just keeps on piling it on (as he thinks so). Mrs. Landingham and the hurricane were just the last straw.

Yes, it's Sorkin, so yes, it's going to be a little grandiose and sweeping, as most Sorkin stuff is, but it does come from a genuine emotional place in terms of the character. You could argue that Sorkin is trying to show off a little bit, because he, you know, does that, but it's at least showing off within the parameters of this character. And in the history of the series, there are far better examples of Sorkin showing off just to show off. ("The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight", which is his response to 9/11, is one that I love but is also more rife with that.)

Also, I've said this before, but again, the point of that scene isn't Bartlet, but God. It's not what Bartlet says, but what God doesn't. The whole second half of season two is setting up Bartlet to go to that low place, to force him to ask God, "isn't what I've done good enough?" and for God to say "no, it's not." Which why we have that great scene with Mrs. Landingham later in the episode, and why he eventually chooses to run again.
Reply
#62
Thread bump!

I'm not able to read much of this thread yet, 'cause the husband & I just barely finished S1 & watched the S2 premiere (the "2 Gunmen" episodes) last night. Trying to remain relatively unspoiled.

I have to agree, what an incredible show. Just oozing w/intelligence, wit, and beauty, and packed with likeable, charismatic acting. My husband and I consider ourselves moderate Republicans, so we don't always agree with some of the issues, but it's all presented with such passion & clarity that it's still a joy to watch (and heck, to reconsider some of our own political stances once in a while).

Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

This may be a silly question, but: Mandy (Moira Kelly) from S1? What exactly happens to her? Is her disappearance ever explained, or is it just glossed over? Not that she was my favorite character or anything (I actually found her somewhat redundant): I just wondered if West Wing is the type of show to tie up all its "loose threads," or if it tends to leave certain plots dangling & forgotten.
Reply
#63
One of the characteristics of the show is that it'll place a lot of emphasis on certain characters, and then they'll disappear, often with no explanation. Mandy is the first one that happened to; she just simply stopped working there, and Kelly never came back. This is why certain fans call the limbo that these appearing-reappearing characters exist in "Mandyville."
Reply
#64
I always found her character to be pretty annoying, and Kelly wasn't the best at reciting Sorkin's dialogue. The ensemble definitely works better without her in it, I think.

I watched all of the seasons for the first time just recently (first time around I quit somewhere through S5), and the show definitely picked back up around the middle of S6 to the end. Have to say that I missed a lot of the lighter and/or heart warming moments in the later seasons. It almost felt like it was striving so hard to be "serious television", especially in S5.

Really dug the the opening sequence during the episode that beings at Leo's funeral. While the priest is talking, the camera is showing just about everyone who's ever been on the show. It was pretty cool to see a lot of those people come back just for that part.

Final unimportant note: in rewatching some of S1, the woman who plays Mallory (McGarry's daughter) is quite attractive. For some reason, I never really noticed that before...
Reply
#65
I'm just about to finish Season 2. This show is simply amazing, I don't think there's ever been a drama that I can breeze through as effortlessly as I have the first two seasons of the West Wing.

I can see why they wrote off Mandy though it would've been nice to get some resolution with the character. I think they wrote a good character who just didn't quite gel with the rest of the cast. Especially considering they wrote an out for her near the end of season one. Either way Janel Maloney takes her spot on the show much better. Her and Whitford are just perfect together.
Reply
#66
I just always presumed Moira Kelly ended up in the Black Lodge.

This is my next "project" after The Sopranos. Excited to finally tie together all the episodes from various seasons that I've caught on Bravo.
Reply
#67
I broke down and bought the boxed set with my tax return. I'm about to finish season 5. Even with Sorkin gone I loved the episode where Bartlett stands up to the Speaker of the House. Such a great moment for him and Josh after everything they go through at the beginning of the season.
Reply
#68
Halfway thru S2 and still loving the show. I agree that Janel Moloney is a terrific addition to the cast; she has a nice, light touch & she and Whitford have awesome chemistry together. My husband normally isn't a "blondes" guy, but he has a major crush on Donna!
Reply
#69
Just a heads up, Steve Heisler at the Onion AV Club is starting an episode-by-episode viewing of the show.
Reply
#70
Quote:

Originally Posted by WayDen
View Post
Really dug the the opening sequence during the episode that beings at Leo's funeral. While the priest is talking, the camera is showing just about everyone who's ever been on the show. It was pretty cool to see a lot of those people come back just for that part.

It always bugged me that Sam wasn't in that scene. That was, for me, the biggest continuity glitch in the entire show (even including the CJ documentary episode) as it simply did not make sense. We were shown over and over again that Sam would lay his entire career on the line for Leo, and he can't make it to the funeral? Really? And it isn't just that we don't see him either, because if he was there then then whole next episode where Josh goes to California to get Sam wouldn't make sense. It was such a mess.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)