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The Nightmare On Elm Street Series
#36
This thread is great as since the past week, I've been revisiting the dvds. Mostly skimming through them, and today I got through Dream Master. I like the idea of 4 and 5 essentially being the same film, but 5 has more of the "original" Freddy of 1/2 rather than the jokey one-liner spewer.

Also, for all of the gay overtones, part 2 is still quite scary, and Freddy is just as sinister and creepy as he was in the first one. Maybe even more so.

The visuals, like the rottweilers with the faces, the mutant cat eating the mutant rat in the boiler room, the pool party massacre, and Freddy's burning at the end. Not to mention the whale sounds and the bus going through the desolate looking offroad. Christopher Young's score is friggin' tops too.
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#37
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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape
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You can't really say that about Halloween 5 or Friday the 13th Part VIII.

Jason punches a man's head off in Friday the 13th Part VIII. If that isn't giggle-worthy entertainment, I don't know what is.
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#38
I'd rank them as follows:

A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 3: The Dream Warriors
A Nightmare on Elm Street
A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 4: The Dream Master
A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 2: Freddy's Revenge
Wes Craven's New Nightmare
[BONUS: Freddy Vs. Jason]
A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 5: The Dream Child
Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare

I think Dream Master is pretty good. It's probably the most surreal of the series.
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#39
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Originally Posted by Justin Clark
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Part 5 *did* give us "bastard son of a hundred maniacs". That's the only thing I remember.

I believe 3 gave us that.
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#40
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Originally Posted by Luca S.
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I believe 3 gave us that.

Yep. It was just part 5 that acted it out.
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#41
DREAM WARRIORS is the only one I've seen as a non-juvenile. Held up pretty well. Crippled Wizard Master kid got off way too easy though. Deserved a far more gruesome death than what befell him.
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#42
Dream Warriors has the best set pieces, best story, best Freddy, best characters, and perfect balance of malice, cheese, humor, and horror.
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#43
Don't forget Craig Wasson!
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#44
Dream Warriors is Aliens to the original Nightmare on Elm St.'s Alien. They're both great but they approach the concept with completely different aims.
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#45
The original is the best because Wes Craven had style. The last gasp of 70's atmosphere. A more mainstream Phantasm-- surreal dreamlike quality raises the level of terror. The film works.

By the time you get to Dream Warriors, the abundant flourishes of 80's glam diminish the mood. (You don't frighten people with Dokken!) The jokiness of Freddy increased to the point of annoyance. He was one step above Chucky.
Now I rock a house party at the drop of a hat
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#46
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Originally Posted by Abbott & Prospero
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Dream Warriors is Aliens to the original Nightmare on Elm St.'s Alien. They're both great but they approach the concept with completely different aims.

I would not say that the approaches are quite as different as Alien and Aliens, but that's a pretty good analogy. There are certain parts of A Nightmare on Elm Street that have aged terribly (Freddy's first appearance is really lame until Tina starts getting the shit torn out of her, and that's a big thing to screw up) so I prefer the more consistently entertaining Dream Warriors.

Dream Warriors, Freddy wasn't annoying yet. It was Dream Master that did that.
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#47
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#48
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Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll
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I would not say that the approaches are quite as different as Alien and Aliens, but that's a pretty good analogy. There are certain parts of A Nightmare on Elm Street that have aged terribly (Freddy's first appearance is really lame until Tina starts getting the shit torn out of her, and that's a big thing to screw up) so I prefer the more consistantly entertaining Dream Warriors.

I wouldn't say its lame at all. Some time a "less is more" approach works best. The first time you see the movie--like with TCM--you imagine you are seeing gruesome shit not really there. The attack works psychologically because you don't know what the fuck's going on. I wouldn't argue with anybody who said its the best direction of Craven's career.
Now I rock a house party at the drop of a hat
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#49
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Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
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I wouldn't say its lame at all. Some time a "less is more" approach works best. The first time you see the movie--like with TCM--you imagine you are seeing gruesome shit not really there. The attack works psychologically because you don't know what the fuck's going on. I wouldn't argue with anybody who said its the best direction of Craven's career.

"Look at this."

*Lops off finger*

*Patrick groans and shakes his head*
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#50
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Originally Posted by Fat Elvis
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By the time you get to Dream Warriors, the abundant flourishes of 80's glam diminish the mood. (You don't frighten people with Dokken!) The jokiness of Freddy increased to the point of annoyance. He was one step above Chucky.

I'm in agreement with this sentiment. I can't get behind the tone of the original being replaced by this. But...

Quote:

The original is the best because Wes Craven had style. The last gasp of 70's atmosphere. A more mainstream Phantasm-- surreal dreamlike quality raises the level of terror. The film works.

Where the hell did Craven's style for this one come from? Swamp Thing? Many of his films before and after Nightmare looked like crap. How is Hills Have Eyes 2 only three years before Serpent & The Rainbow?
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#51
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Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll
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I would not say that the approaches are quite as different as Alien and Aliens, but that's a pretty good analogy. There are certain parts of A Nightmare on Elm Street that have aged terribly (Freddy's first appearance is really lame until Tina starts getting the shit torn out of her, and that's a big thing to screw up) so I prefer the more consistently entertaining Dream Warriors.

Dream Warriors, Freddy wasn't annoying yet. It was Dream Master that did do that.

Oh, don't take my analogy as any kind of dig against Dream Warriors. I still remember Part 3 as being one of the more enjoyable audience participation flicks I've seen in a theater. People went nuts for it when I saw it opening night. Not really scary. Certainly no where near the more unsettling nature of the first film. But for pure entertainment value, Dream Warriors is the champ in this series.
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#52
Its been a while for me. I thought you were talking about the scene where Tina and her boyfriend are attacked in the bedroom.

As for Craven's style, I always liked the rawness of his early work. His films didn't look as good as contemporaries like Carpenter, but at least initially he understood Horror. He knew how to create mood and play the audience.
Now I rock a house party at the drop of a hat
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#53
Nah, once she starts flying out of the bed, shit gets incredible. And the movie really does pick up from there. I love A Nightmare on Elm Street, I just prefer Dream Warriors.
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#54
I am in a constant war of opinion about Craven. I just don't know if he's really good or not. His films run the entire gamut from outright terrible to utterly mediocre to great. I just can't get a bead on him and have a tough time discerning any consistent style.
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#55
He's a smart idea man, an unfocused filmmaker, and lucky son-of-a-bitch. You can't make A Nightmare on Elm Street or Hills Have Eyes without possessing some kind of film-making talent. When he's connected with the right script, he can do great work (Scream). But he's more in love with ideas than filmmaking.
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#56
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#57
The Elm Street franchise is probably the reason I love movies as much as I do. I'm not really into conventions, but even I had to go a few years ago when it was announced that Robert Englund would be appearing. I met him, and I have the autograph framed and hanging on my wall. It's one of the only movie-related things you'll see in my house that isn't a DVD.

My favorite of the franchise is still the first one. I love the atmosphere of the film, and I still love the concept the Wes tapped into to. The idea that someone can never possibly escape their worst nightmares is about as scary as it gets. Don't want to see Freddy? Just never go to sleep again. Damn scary idea.

A few years ago, I could have sworn I read that the homosexual subtext of the second film was completely unintentional. I'll have to research this further. That would be disappointing because it's really the only thing that film has going for it (outside of maybe the musical score). I'll admit that I love the pool scene, but only as a stand alone Freddy moment. It doesn't work at all in the context of the film or Freddy's backstory.

The third one is pretty close to a solid movie. Admittedly, I've never been a big fan of Freddy as the jokester, but this one has a good enough mix of elements that Freddy still feels more sinister than not. Lots of good stuff in this one.

I don't really care for the fourth, fifth and sixth films all that much. If they're on television, I sometimes throw them on for a bit, but I don't remember the last time I sat through one of these all the way through. I guess I'd pick Dream Master as the best of the three. I always thought Dream Child was boring. Freddy's Dead is horrible, but I actually laugh when Freddy says, "Nice hearing from ya, Carlos!" Plus, the scene where Freddy is yelling behind the deaf Carlos always felt like it should be in a better movie - it's decently effective.

I've stated it before, but I love New Nightmare. It's not really a slasher movie at all, but that's not really Freddy attacking Heather anyway. Seemed like Wes realized that the only way to make him scary again was to throw the idea of the character into a new realm of horror. I still think it works well enough. And I agree that the musical score is very good.

I have a love/hate relationship with Freddy Vs. Jason. I first saw it in a packed theater filled with slasher fans, and it was a fun experience. I watched it by myself a few months later, and the fun just wasn't there.
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#58
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Originally Posted by Iron Maiden
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A few years ago, I could have sworn I read that the homosexual subtext of the second film was completely unintentional.

Jack Sholder says it was unintentional on his part, though he admits that it got in there somehow. It's not like he doesn't see what people see in the movie.
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#59
I like FREDDY VS. JASON. It's a cartoon, but it's a good cartoon, unlike say FREDDY'S DEAD. It's as good as a Freddy vs. Jason movie has any right to be. Plus Kathryn Isabelle is a babe and I know Jason Ritter and he's a great dude.
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#60
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#61
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Originally Posted by Aquafresh
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I like FREDDY VS. JASON. It's a cartoon, but it's a good cartoon, unlike say FREDDY'S DEAD. It's as good as a Freddy vs. Jason movie has any right to be. Plus Kathryn Isabelle is a babe and I know Jason Ritter and he's a great dude.

I don't think it's any more cartoonish than The Dream Master, and it's better than that film. Mostly because it doesn't have someone gaining skills and powers because their friends died. Or someone using karate against Freddy Kruger.

Fuck, I hate that movie. At least some of that is because to this day I have a ridiculous crush on Patricia Arquette in Dream Warriors and Tuesday Knight is just a pale imitation. But the fact that it features a prolonged nunchuck swining scene also works heavily against it.
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#62
Freddy Vs. Jason is pure fun. Saw the midnight showing that was sponsored by a local radio station, and the theater was jam packed. My friends and I had a blast. Favorite bits were Freddy saying "Man the torpedoes!" and "Hey, asshole. Up here!"
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#63
That initial Freddy Vs. Jason viewing really was fun. Yeah, it was a bad movie, but the crowd was loud and ready to have a blast. Audiences like that will put you right in the mood for this stuff.

Watching it by myself, though, was a bad decision. I don't think I could ever do that again.
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#64
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Originally Posted by James Kimbell
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Jack Sholder says it was unintentional on his part, though he admits that it got in there somehow. It's not like he doesn't see what people see in the movie.

There must be a good Nightmare book out there that holds the answers of how it turned out the way it did. Plus, I really want to know why that bird exploded. That still might be the biggest "What the fuck" moment in the entire series, which is saying quite a lot.
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#65
I just watched SHOCKER. What a terrible, terrible film on almost every level.
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#66
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Originally Posted by Iron Maiden
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There must be a good Nightmare book out there that holds the answers of how it turned out the way it did. Plus, I really want to know why that bird exploded. That still might be the biggest "What the fuck" moment in the entire series, which is saying quite a lot.

I can't remember where I read it, so take this with however many grains of salt you wish, but I think it was editor Bob Brady (gay) who saw the homo erotic subtext of the film that neither the director nor writer intended, and really brought it out in the editing.

Sort of like the incredibly glamorous cocaine montage he made for the middle of Superfly, it simultaneously undercuts the movie's intentions and makes the movie a lot more interesting.
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#67
I don't even think Freddy was annoying in Dream Master. He was his MTV self, but he was still the villain. My threshold with Freddy is that he can crack jokes as long as he still wants to kill you in the end. Nightmare 5 crosses that line. Chasing comic book kid on the skateboard, he disappears instead of slashing him so he can make more jokes.

And against all odds, I think Nightmare 2 actually has the best Krueger.
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#68
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Originally Posted by Aquafresh
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I like FREDDY VS. JASON. It's a cartoon, but it's a good cartoon, unlike say FREDDY'S DEAD. It's as good as a Freddy vs. Jason movie has any right to be. Plus Kathryn Isabelle is a babe and I know Jason Ritter and he's a great dude.

I was more in the Monica Keena fan club myself but as far as characters go, Freddy Vs. Jason is the worst. It's only redeeming value is the long-awaited battle between the two and even that is a bit of a letdown as we don't get Kane Hodder as Jason, this go around. There isn't enough Jason for it to work as a Friday film and as a Nightmare one, it seems to rush through things way too quickly.

Dream Warriors is easily the best of the sequels. Some of the kid fantasy stuff is a bit hokey but all the first act stuff where we hear and see all these horror stories of these kids grasping with the idea that they will be killed if they sleep is real quite chilling. Freddy's Revenge is clearly just not the right fit for the series. Shoulder didn't understand the concept at all as he has since admitted. The remaning films all are entertaining in their own right. I applaud Craven for trying to reestablish control of his creation with New Nightmare but it was too little, too late. The public had already embraced the wise-cracking Freddy.
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#69
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Originally Posted by The Dark Shape
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And against all odds, I think Nightmare 2 actually has the best Krueger.

While it's the worst sequel, you may have a valid point here. It's more the script and the filmmakers' ignorance of Freddy's mythology that kill this sequel. Well, that and all the homoerotic stuff. But Englund is aces here. He really takes joy in torturing the protagonist here. If they'd have inserted this incarnation of Krueger into one of the better sequels, they might have had something.
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#70
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Originally Posted by Crazy Jim
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I was more in the Monica Keena fan club myself but as far as characters go, Freddy Vs. Jason is the worst. It's only redeeming value is the long-awaited battle between the two and even that is a bit of a letdown as we don't get Kane Hodder as Jason, this go around. There isn't enough Jason for it to work as a Friday film and as a Nightmare one, it seems to rush through things way too quickly.

Jason's in it more than Freddy and Kane Hodder is really, really not essential. That is all.
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