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London's Burning
#1

Carpetright-shop-on-Totte-007.jpg

Can you fucking believe this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14446548

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#2

No I can't. I was trying to figure out what movie that picture came from, then I clicked on the link ...

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#3

I just can't get my head around this it's insane.  Peoplein  London are saying they media is reporting the looting and such but the biggest danger is thugs just using it to hurt and mug people - most folks I know are staying at home.

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#4

Welcome to the Big Society.

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#5

Apparently it all started after a 27 year old father of 4 was gunned down by police. A peaceful protest was then hijacked by looters into this huge disturbance. But there had to be some serious underlying social tensions for this to happen.

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#6

The 27 year old father of four was also a well known gangster who was most likely armed, and who most likely had the gun taken off of his corpse. Essentially this is just an excuse to loot and wreck shit, it seems to be spreading outside of London. I know stuff has kicked off in Birmingham and I've there have been a few disturbances in Leeds.

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#7

So there are that many thugs in the UK? And they are that well organized?

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#8


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

So there are that many thugs in the UK? And they are that well organized?



Come on CB - it's "hooligans" don't you know.

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#9

Essentially it's just people looting and burning shit down, there is no rationale anymore. Just people venting steam, which kind of shows how deep-set some of these societal issues have become. There's been resentment and anger brewing in these communities for decades, and now you've got dickheads who just wanna destroy whatever they see. The problem is that these communities are cannibalising themselves, all the shops in Tottenham that are getting burnt are family owned business. I've got friends down there who are essentially waiting to see if the tide changes and their streets are attacked next. You've got wildfire riots spreading out in Birmingham, Leeds, and Liverpool where the disaffected fuck heads are getting a piece of the action for themselves.

This is just fucking chaos, without a rationale, without reason.

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#10

We had riots in Oakland CA after the shooting of Oscar Grant. A different case to be sure: there was no doubt the killing was not warranted and it was caught on cell phone video. But a lot of "anarchists" and common criminals latched on to the killing and used it for their own ends. In this case the scale of the disturbances seems too large for that to be the the whole story here. I believe the area where the guy was shot is also one of the poorest neighborhoods with the largest unemployment rates in London.

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#11

The problem with some of these communities is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I have friends who lived in Tottenham, thankfully they moved a few years ago, who saw the community and saw people who essentially allowed themselves to become disaffected. I'm not saying there aren't issues with unemployment, especially with certain minority groups, but I think a lot of people used that as an excuse to allow their resentment to broil.

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#12

The ice age is comin, the suns zoomin' in, meltdown expected, the wheat's growing thin...

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#13

Lovely. I'm sure it'll come around to your gilded shores at some point RD.

I've been listening to Babylon's Burning whilst watching the news at the gym.

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#14

Meanwhile in London:

  • Several fires broke out in Croydon, including one at a large sofa factory which spread to neighbouring buildings and tram lines
  • In Hackney 200 riot officers with dogs and mounted police were located around Mare Street where police cars were damaged
  • Looters raided a Debenhams store and a row of shops in Lavender Hill in Clapham, as well as shops in Stratford High Street
  • More than 100 people looted a Tesco store in Bethnal Green, the Met said, and two officers were injured
  • Cars were set on fire in Lewisham
  • A bus and shop were set alight in Peckham
  • Buses were diverted as the violence spread to Bromley High Street
  • There were reports of looting of phone shops in Woolwich High Street, in south London, and a torched police car
  • Shops and restaurants were damaged in Ealing, west London, and there was a fire in Haven Green park opposite Ealing Broadway Tube
  • Football matches at Charlton and West Ham which were due to be played on Tuesday have been postponed at the request of the police
  • At Clapham Junction looters stole masks from a fancy dress store to hide their identity

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248

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#15

Clucking Bell

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=20...2C1.100006

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#16


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post

The problem with some of these communities is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I have friends who lived in Tottenham, thankfully they moved a few years ago, who saw the community and saw people who essentially allowed themselves to become disaffected. I'm not saying there aren't issues with unemployment, especially with certain minority groups, but I think a lot of people used that as an excuse to allow their resentment to broil.



I'm sure the latter part is true, and I'm sure there are a lot of dickheads who are using this as an excuse to cause shit, but I'm not sure I agree with the part about folks 'allowing themselves to become disaffected.'  In any case I'm afraid nothing good will come of it in the end, just as nothing too great ever came of riots here in North America.

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#17

Well apparently the bullet he supposedly fired towards the police actually came from a police gun, according to the Guardian based on early ballistics reports. So there's that.

There's also the fact that acting shocked and like society is breaking down when riots happen seems absurd to me. The underprivileged latching on to a real or perceived slight and using it both to vent their frustrations with their lot in life and to live out the consumerist fantasy that is being advertised to them is something that has always been happening and will always be happening. It's a societal safety valve blowing off steam.

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#18



Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

There's also the fact that acting shocked and like society is breaking down when riots happen seems absurd to me. The underprivileged latching on to a real or perceived slight and using it both to vent their frustrations with their lot in life and to live out the consumerist fantasy that is being advertised to them is something that has always been happening and will always be happening. It's a societal safety valve blowing off steam.


No one is shocked that there are riots, it's the scale of what's happening and the speed with which it's been ignited. It's shocking because it's so very, very ugly and the perpetrators seem to be taking such glee in the chaos and control they have. I think people are also less than impressed with the police response thus far.

Steven Kavanagh Dept Police Commissioner is on Breakfast news and when asked if the military will be getting involved he replied "All options have been discussed"

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#19

My comments were more general in nature.

But the way social media and ubiquitous communication have changed the scale, speed and level of organization of these events is fascinating. The current law enforcement apparatus is really not prepared for this. You could see it during our big riots a couple of years ago, wherever there's WTO or G20 stuff, even with the current "Arab Spring" stuff. And the governments know this. A pretty big battle for control of the internet is going to take place in the next few years.

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#20
AThere's a lot of nastiness in here though. You can't watch footage of a guy who's been done over being "helped" up, only for the alleged good Samaritans to rob him fucking blind and look at it dispassionately. That's the scum of the earth right there

The police are boned though. You have to focus them somewhere and it just kicks off somewhere else. I'm not sure if reports of twitter being used are true but the rioters are running rings around them.

Seeing footage of 30+ rioters charging 8 cops in woolwich is chilling.

There's a lot of underlying rage bug this ses to have stopped being about protest.

I can't stop my internal monologue doing a Ken Watanabe impression and going "London must a be destroyed"

I can't imagine the Notting Hill carnival will be happening this year
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#21


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

 I can't imagine the Notting Hill carnival will be happening this year


Coming from the "thank god no ones been killed" context, that's a really tragic probability.

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#22



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

I can't stop my internal monologue doing a Ken Watanabe impression and going "London must a be destroyed"

I can't imagine the Notting Hill carnival will be happening this year


Someone needs to show the people of London their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt. People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy and you can't do that as Andy Bain, as a man you're flesh and blood you can be ignored, you can be destroyed, but as a symbol, as a symbol you can be incorruptible, you can be everlasting.

I can't see the Olympics happening (I kid)



Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

My comments were more general in nature.

But the way social media and ubiquitous communication have changed the scale, speed and level of organization of these events is fascinating. The current law enforcement apparatus is really not prepared for this. You could see it during our big riots a couple of years ago, wherever there's WTO or G20 stuff, even with the current "Arab Spring" stuff. And the governments know this. A pretty big battle for control of the internet is going to take place in the next few years.


This was being discussed as well. One correspondant was speaking to some "youths" who had found out the police were in a certain area and were using facebook updates to get other groups in certain areas. It's frightening.

If this keeps up someone will die. Will it be someone just trying to get home? Will it be a family trapped in a flat above a shop? We'll see.

It's hard to remain rational and calm about this. Like Ken said, it's nearly impossible to get your head around something like this.

What is the mindset? Is it sport? Is it just fun to destroy the community you live in?

Are these kids really frustrated and angry, or are they just animals?


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#23

All of the above, with degrees varying from person to person from what I know personally. A guy I knew was from a pretty well off family but way into the politics. Fight the power, fuck the man and such. He just wanted to break stuff. Another one was a pill popper who busted into a store and stole a bunch of sunglasses to pay for his habit. A lot will probably fall somewhere in between.

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#24

I do love how some news outlets, namely my beloved Guardian, were trying to frame this as some Arab fucking Spring style protest. Everyone seems to have cottoned on to the fact that the initial shooting itself was a spark more than a deep rooted cause. I know there's a general sense of 'fuck the police', but they're dealing with an impossible situtation right now.

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#25

A 26 year old man shot in his car in Croydon last night has now died.... five oh gonna kick some ass tonight yo

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#26

This may be my favorite comment on the situation thus far...

Quote:

According to the media I’ve heard tonight, the rioting taking place can only have one of three causes. The media does not like the complexity of real life.  The three possible causes are:

  1. Those involved are mindless thugs;
  2. Those involved are expressing their anger because they are disenfranchised;
  3. Those involved are operating under the direct orders of subversive far left organisations.

Let us discount 3), because a) it is silly b) it is from the pen of Melanie Phillips.  In this case a=b.

Let us also, with a little more consideration, discount 1 and 2 as explanations for the rioting.  This is because, while people may have come together to riot and loot, they are likely to be doing so for different reasons. 

Some may be angry that they have no job.  Some may be keen to have a free mobile handset. Still more may be there because they fear their friends would call them a “pussy” if they did not attend.  Others may be there because they want to be able to talk about it with their mates in the days and weeks to come. 

For most indeed the reasons will not be fixed, and may change during the evening. I am sure some will have gone down for a look, and found the temptation of a broken-into off-licence a little too great.

We can, ultimately, establish no single motivation, and it is useless to try.  It just makes you sound like Theresa May.

What we can say, though, is something about comparative incentives. 

Most people from richer areas, who have jobs or who have a good chance of getting a good job, will not riot in the next day or few because their retaining their job or job chance through not getting a criminal record is greater than any of the other incentives I have listed above.

It’s as simple as that. 

People from poorer, more deprived areas and backgrounds are rioting for different, shifting motivations, but they are doing so because they do not have enough invested in what the state can offer them to outweigh the benefits of that rioting.

That is, the state has temporarily failed, because a significant group of people in London have decided it is just not worth living within its jurisdiction.

What we do about it is a different matter, though for myself I think upping the incentive for more people to accept the state’s jurisdiction is a pretty good idea.  Nevertheless, the logic of the state’s failure should be inescapable, especially for right-wingers who believe that rational choice theory (RCT) is the best guide for the operation of society.

However, I suspect many of those that believe RCT is a good guiding philosophy for themselves and “the markets” will prefer not to extend thee same conception of basic human characteristics to young Londoners making their own calculations tonight.  They’ll prefer to keep on calling them “mindless”.

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#27

This is something that I've noticed come up a few times, the idea that these folk are behaving like this because "Why the fuck not?"

I certainly get that (and that post said it well), but the reason I'm not burning down CarpetRight is not because I want to hang on to my job or am worried about my record, it's because I'm a decent person. I am aware that looting is wrong and that burning buildings for no fucking reason is dangerous and is not a productive service to society.

Why won't these people think of the children  community? Ok, so their government has failed them. Yes it has. So, what good has come from burning a Sony Warehouse to the ground?

Yes it's easy to just label people thugs from my high horse, and of course there are many numerous reasons why people might take part in this violence... but ...God dammit... they're a buncha fuckin' thugs!

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#28

Rioting in Bristol? What the hell have they got to be upset about there?  Has someone put wahsing up liquid in the water fountains again?

Actually it is not that suprising, St Pauls has always been a trouble spot, at least one person dies in the carnival each year.

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#29


ETA: Rain Dog, that article is aces. Sending to my friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Apparently it all started after a 27 year old father of 4 was gunned down by police. A peaceful protest was then hijacked by looters into this huge disturbance. But there had to be some serious underlying social tensions for this to happen.


Totally. People who think this is all just "mindless" thugs are missing the point spectacularly. Good article on the psychology of mob mentality in relation to these riots.

Quote:

How did a peaceful protest escalate to serious rioting over consecutive nights on a scale not witnessed for a generation?

If the political discourse is anything to go by, our society is under attack from "outsiders" hell-bent on "mindless criminality" from whom we need protection. The spread of this "disorder" to other areas is described as "copycat"; which suggests people are drawn into the looting and attacks simply because they have seen these things going on.

But this transition from peaceful to riotous crowds is, of course, one of the fundamental questions of crowd psychology. In addressing it over the past 30 years, my colleagues and I have made some important advances in scientific understanding of how and why riots come about.

Of central importance is that we know that "riots" cannot be understood as an explosion of "mob irrationality". Nor can they be adequately explained in terms of individuals predisposed to criminality by nature of their pathological disposition. The behaviour of these people in smashing up their "own communities" may seem irrational to some but to the "rioters" themselves these targets are meaningful.

These meanings in turn always relate to their sense of themselves as a social group and of the illegitimacy of their historical relationship to others around them. We cannot extract the "riots" from the situations in which they occur. It is highly meaningful that these riots developed after the shooting of Mark Duggan. This incident represented for many within his community the antagonistic relationship they have with the Met that fed into the events on Saturday night.

It is highly relevant that in the context of these riots people have taken the opportunity to target shops selling high-end electrical goods, clothes and jewelery. In this age of austerity, such items are becoming increasingly unobtainable.

To recognise these issues is not to act as an apologist for these actions. Rather to point out that to render the riots meaningless is to deny the opportunity that we must take to generate an understanding of them that will help to prevent them in the future.

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#30


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post

This is something that I've noticed come up a few times, the idea that these folk are behaving like this because "Why the fuck not?"

I certainly get that (and that post said it well), but the reason I'm not burning down CarpetRight is not because I want to hang on to my job or am worried about my record, it's because I'm a decent person. I am aware that looting is wrong and that burning buildings for no fucking reason is dangerous and is not a productive service to society.

Why won't these people think of the children  community? Ok, so their government has failed them. Yes it has. So, what good has come from burning a Sony Warehouse to the ground?

Yes it's easy to just label people thugs from my high horse, and of course there are many numerous reasons why people might take part in this violence... but ...God dammit... they're a buncha fuckin' thugs!



If you don't believe that the "community" includes you, why should you defend it?

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#31

Nothing but the best wishes towards our British Chewers.  I hope that you and your families/friends are safe.

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#32

Folks it's ok David Cameron has come back early from his holiday to sort out the oiks.

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#33

I just feel happy that we have the moral superiority of Rain Dog and the intellectual might of Diva in this thread.

ETA:

My favourite image from the riots thus far

tumblr_lpnxr96mxp1r1pwklo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1312989125&Signature=5pxh3Zij7okKa4SC6%2BIr2bgDhiQ%3D

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#34


Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall View Post

I just feel happy that we have the moral superiority of Rain Dog and the intellectual might of Diva in this thread.

ETA:

My favourite image from the riots thus far

tumblr_lpnxr96mxp1r1pwklo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1312989125&Signature=5pxh3Zij7okKa4SC6%2BIr2bgDhiQ%3D


That's the spiritual sister of this guy:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSO3n-RaZ5W57B7gw44jxI4p4vPi9fAiBt4FAMjV0yin6GfCNlzIw

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#35

"Amazing Value" indeed.

Reading some of the coverage of these events this "by the way" blew my mind:

"

The images of London's violence recalled the 2005 riots in France, when hooded and masked youths fought police in three weeks of raging overnight battles in housing projects, confrontations that became a challenge to the French state itself.

Mass deployments of police eventually subdued the rioters, but tensions between French police and youth in the projects continue today, with periodic clashes between youths with Molotov cocktails and police with tear gas. French police say between 30 and 50 cars are set on fire during an average week. On the most fiery night of the 2005 riots, more than 1,400 cars went up in flames.

http://news.yahoo.com/uk-pm-recalls-parl...31993.html

Looks like DVD sales of Harry Brown are going to skyrocket while Attack the Block is done.

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