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so, there's a knock on the door...
#71

Oh, my mistake.

But yeah, I think religion played a very necessary role in the rise of civillisation.  You can hate on religion all you want, but I don't think you can deny that.  The fact that it may be fabricated nonsense has nothing to do with whether or not it was useful in keeping humanity in check for its other realms to develop.

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#72


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

Right, so everyone's fury in here about religion is coming across rather vulgar and if not, it's the kind of intellectual debates that happen when you're 16. As I said before, religion has done terrible things, its also, in the past, done great things. My point is that, whatever your feelings on it, between one person and another, there should be a fundamental understanding not to be rude, not talking about respect, just not being rude. I don't understand how difficult that is to grasp. You could have told them to just go away, but its the superiority and smug way in which you acted and then came on here, looking for attention. That is what I find most troubling. Obviously you thought you'd been clever and funny.


  What one person might consider as "rude" might not be true for someone else...

The guys at the door could very well have thought that it would be 'rude' if they were not allowed to give me their spiel even if I initially told them "thanks, I'm not buying".

Because I didn't immediately invite them in and serve them tea....maybe that was 'rude'?

It's entirely subjective.

IIRC, In some cultures around the world, it is considered 'rude' to let go with a 'burp' after a meal...but, in others, it could be considered complementary. 

As far as being "funny"....I do happen to find it quite amusing (and frustrating) when people are supposedly getting their sense of morality from a book that they have a very rudimentary understanding of, if at all.

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Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion.

"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible."

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It's troubling to see people have that idea, your not going to change the world, or 'get back' for the terrible crimes of whatever religion for being a dick to someone and then bragging about it. The fact you said you'd done it to people before is worse. It's just an ugly act. That's all.

...in your current opinion.

Perhaps if you had more fanatics knocking on your door, your opinion would be different.

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#73

It's the act of bragging and being a jerk. I don't see how this is still continuing. You came looking to show off to people, because you thought you had been a smart arse to some people. The whole snowflake in an avalanche thing is total bullshit and not relevant to what I'm talking about. At any rate, we still don't even know what religion they were.

Edit: Also, please stop using ellipsis, you're not fleed.

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#74

Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion.

Quote:
If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die

~ Bill Maher, from RELIGULOUS

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#75

Nope, still missing my point entirely.

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#76

Some people talk about 'religion' like it's some 'other', some disease people catch or a brainwashing of some kind, and this nefarious 'other' has done all these terrible things through history...

...it's just us people - it's all just us.

If it wasn't about religion, the great civilizations of the past would have risen, fought and fallen over something else.

Stop looking at the symptom like it's the cause.

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#77


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

Edit: Also, please stop using ellipsis

...........................why should I stop using them, because you say so....? :-]

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#78

Only because it makes it difficult to read. Use them, fine, but at least use the correct "..." number.

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#79

comment system ate my first reply.  It might turn up I dunno

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

Right, so everyone's fury in here about religion is coming across rather vulgar and if not, it's the kind of intellectual debates that happen when you're 16. As I said before, religion has done terrible things, its also, in the past, done great things. My point is that, whatever your feelings on it, between one person and another, there should be a fundamental understanding not to be rude, not talking about respect, just not being rude. I don't understand how difficult that is to grasp. You could have told them to just go away, but its the superiority and smug way in which you acted and then came on here, looking for attention. That is what I find most troubling. Obviously you thought you'd been clever and funny. Those two people, ignorant or whatever, are not responsible for the wider problems of religion. It's troubling to see people have that idea, your not going to change the world, or 'get back' for the terrible crimes of whatever religion for being a dick to someone and then bragging about it. The fact you said you'd done it to people before is worse. It's just an ugly act. That's all.

I don't want to harp on about this, being just some guy, but I just don't get it at all.  You seem to be operating on some sort of universal standard of rudeness we're all supposed to understand even if some don't respect it.  The problem is this doesn't exist and I'm pretty pleased it doesn't, to be frank.  There is no way that what took place in the OP is ruder than 'a stern fuck off' and sending them on their way.  None.  And that's not because of the internet's insidious influence or whatever, but because of the way I was brought up (reel at the uncultured ways I sprang from if you like).  I don't really understand separating rudeness from respect either, for that matter.  Seems like some standard of pure etiquette of the sort not seen since 1900-ish.  Since I don't know its arcane rules I'll have to take my lumps I guess.

The other thing is bragging and crowing victory on the internet, which seems to be the major source of outrage and judgement.  The thing is you've got to do a whole lot of second guessing of motivations in order to get there.  As we've seen, beating a couple of doorknockers on the ten commandments isn't especially clever.  No one's going to be impressed. It's more interesting that it happened.  So I wouldn't (and didn't) assume the post was trying to impress people and get kudos with its fly swatting achievements.  The question of how to treat doorknockers is also an interesting talking point, as I don't accept it's cut and dried.  Had we found out what would have happened if they'd got them all right, we might have something to work with.  As it stands I find most of he planks of your disgust wanting and unnecessary, is what I'm trying to say.  Explain it to me further if you want, but so far your apparent claim to righteousness on this isn't as clear cut as you seem to think.

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#80

That's actually a good question - VTRan, what would you have done if they'd gotten all ten?

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#81

Well, originally it was just an observation. Perhaps I was wrong, but I was just stating it. What I've been trying to clear up, was exactly what I meant. I still think, to me, its quite horrible. But I'm not being self righteous about this at all, I thought it was all rather light hearted.

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#82

Just to throw a little support Sean's way - I can understand the appeal of a good "gotcha", but what is it really going to achieve?  If you're looking to change these people's minds you've likely just achieved the opposite.  Be rude to someone, and they'll just want to prove you wrong that much more.  Of course, maybe you don't care and you just want them to leave you alone with the satisfaction that you embarrassed them a little.  In which case, you know, good one.

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#83


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post

That's actually a good question - VTRan, what would you have done if they'd gotten all ten?

I would have given them a well earned "congratulations, you're the first to actually answer that question", a good strong handshake...AND THE KEYS TO A BRAND NEW CAR !!!!

Seriously, I  would probably have inquired further to see the extent of their knowledge of all things biblical/religious...I am always interested in finding out if religious people grew up under the thumb of religion or if they came to it later in life and what was it that made them choose their particular flavor of religion.

...then most likely take whatever pamphlets they wanted to give me and then send them on their merry way.

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#84

That's actually something I'm always interested in finding out. When I was younger, someone I knew who had studied ancient histories and theology thoroughly started out as a very devout christian, eager to understand more about their faith, but by the end of their course had totally turned against it.

Edit: What were they anyway, we still haven't found that out. Or did it just not come up?

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#85


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

That's actually something I'm always interested in finding out, someone who has studied ancient histories and theology thoroughly when I was younger, started out as a very devout christian, eager to understand more about their faith, but by the end of their course had totally turned against it.


I'm confused...this is your bio.?

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#86

Sorry, it's a little late over here and I missed out a bit. It was someone I knew who was at university. Clarified.

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#87


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Oh, my mistake.

But yeah, I think religion played a very necessary role in the rise of civillisation.  You can hate on religion all you want, but I don't think you can deny that.  The fact that it may be fabricated nonsense has nothing to do with whether or not it was useful in keeping humanity in check for its other realms to develop.


Don't forget beer.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...tbeer.html

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#88

Ohh after reading the title I thought this would end with a sex story or something, this is lame.

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#89

That's funny!  Because I was browsing through what was available on Netflix Instant and saw that there was a TV documentary on that very subject!

How Beer Saved the World!

As someone who largely stays away from alcohol (TEETOTALER!!!), this INFURIATES MEEEEE!!!!

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#90


Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

That's funny!  Because I was browsing through what was available on Netflix Instant and saw that there was a TV documentary on that very subject!

How Beer Saved the World!

As someone who largely stays away from alcohol (TEETOTALER!!!), this INFURIATES MEEEEE!!!!


I don't drink at all either. Still, in this case it got us to where we are today, so that could only be a good thing.

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#91


Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

Ohh after reading the title I thought this would end with a sex story or something, this is lame.


I'm sure chances are good that further research will reveal some was involved somewhere along the way.

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#92

In trying to move this thread somewhere more interesting, has anyone had any frightening and/or strange encounters with door to door people of any kind, religious or salesmen?

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#93


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

In trying to move this thread somewhere more interesting, has anyone had any frightening and/or strange encounters with door to door people of any kind, religious or salesmen?



Dammit Sean, don't change the subject after I've spent all morning writing out my enormous, ultra-detailed retort!

Actually, fuck it. Why be that guy who re-derails. I did spend a month selling overseas phone plans just after I moved over to Oz - never again. NEVER again.

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#94


Quote:
Originally Posted by Workyticket View Post



Dammit Sean, don't change the subject after I've spent all morning writing out my enormous, ultra-detailed retort!

Actually, fuck it. Why be that guy who re-derails. I did spend a month selling overseas phone plans just after I moved over to Oz - never again. NEVER again.



Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.

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#95


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post



Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.


Foxtel? I've been wanting to get rid of it for ages, it's just that my parents want to keep it. When I got to freeze it for a couple of months when they were away in 2011, it was the most productive period I had all year.

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#96


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post


Foxtel? I've been wanting to get rid of it for ages, it's just that my parents want to keep it. When I got to freeze it for a couple of months when they were away in 2011, it was the most productive period I had all year.



I realized earlier this year that I was only paying for it so my ex and her best mate could watch the E! Channel - there wasn't a single thing on there that was 'must watch' for me - especially when Stewart and Colbert were on ABC2.

Nah, in the end I realized I was paying for it out of force of habit and not watching it. I aint made of money, $70 a month for nothin just didn't make sense.

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#97


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post



Didja? I was a foxtel door-to-door guy. Lasted just under three months.

On the upside it taught me I could never be a salesman on account of actually having a soul and human emotions and not caring very much about money.



Yeah, I was flogging AAPT - well, working for some doggy, two-bit marketing company who had a contract with AAPT. I don't know what I was thinking, because I have not a jot of salesman in me, and having to disturb people to try and sell this bullshit was absolute hell. Worse still, it was in the middle of a hot spring in Perth and I was spending more in keeping hydrated than I was making from commissions (I was extremely shit at the job, something I hold as a point of pride). Even lasting a month was an act of sheer will.

Of course, what also helped convince me to quit was getting stoned with my boss on his insistence, and him admitting - completely at random, with no preceding conversation of the kind - that he found it hard maintaining relationships because he liked to choke women during sex.

That made quitting kinda easy.

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#98

"I am the one who re-rails!"

/WalterWhite

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

Well, originally it was just an observation. Perhaps I was wrong, but I was just stating it. What I've been trying to clear up, was exactly what I meant. I still think, to me, its quite horrible. But I'm not being self righteous about this at all, I thought it was all rather light hearted.


Well ok.  Chalk it up to the failings of text based communication.  You did break out the right sort of language to seem deeply offended there dude.  But, never mind.

Anyway, I've been virtually stalked by some JWs for over a year now.  Mainly because I'm too spineless to tell them to go away properly.  Yes this is a terrible personal failing.  Still it has been interesting to see that they're so earnest and optimistic they can completely ignore me being obviously disinterested and suspicious.

There's one main guy who is really interested in my prospects for salvation but he brings a cadre of different people to try and give me a talking to, including his wife, his dad and some other anonymous old guys.  From time to time there's been really raw kids with him and I'm fairly sure I'm seeing some sort of training regime in action, where third and fourth people just sort of stand there seeming to only observe the approach.  I picture them going back to the car to debrief tactics and stuff afterwards.

Saying they were stalking me isn't much of an exaggeration either. For a time they were so regular they knew my work schedule and would wait out the front for me to get home.  It became a bit of a crappily hilarious game of cat and mouse as I'd note down numberplates (they have so many different cars!) and do dummy runs by my house via different streets on the way home, just to check if they were there, call up house mates to scope any cars sitting out the front for shirt and tie dudes.

I haven't seen them all that often lately.  But I just know they're out there.  Waiting.  Watching.

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#99


Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

Anyway, I've been virtually stalked by some JWs for over a year now.  Mainly because I'm too spineless to tell them to go away properly.  Yes this is a terrible personal failing.  Still it has been interesting to see that they're so earnest and optimistic they can completely ignore me being obviously disinterested and suspicious.

There's one main guy who is really interested in my prospects for salvation but he brings a cadre of different people to try and give me a talking to, including his wife, his dad and some other anonymous old guys.  From time to time there's been really raw kids with him and I'm fairly sure I'm seeing some sort of training regime in action, where third and fourth people just sort of stand there seeming to only observe the approach.  I picture them going back to the car to debrief tactics and stuff afterwards.

Saying they were stalking me isn't much of an exaggeration either. For a time they were so regular they knew my work schedule and would wait out the front for me to get home.  It became a bit of a crappily hilarious game of cat and mouse as I'd note down numberplates (they have so many different cars!) and do dummy runs by my house via different streets on the way home, just to check if they were there, call up house mates to scope any cars sitting out the front for shirt and tie dudes.

I haven't seen them all that often lately.  But I just know they're out there.  Waiting.  Watching.



Well that's some amazingly creepy shit right there. On that I think we can all agree. Have you gone to the the police with all this? I mean, that's just completely wrong by anyone's standards.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

In trying to move this thread somewhere more interesting, has anyone had any frightening and/or strange encounters with door to door people of any kind, religious or salesmen?



...or maybe start a new thread...ah, fuck it.

Bring on the threadvolution...ellipsis and all.

-Years ago, I had some semi-drunk/high dude knock on my door one night around 11:30pm. He thought that there was supposed to be a big party happening at this address. He was completely oblivious to the fact that the street was mostly empty of cars, no music playing or any other signs that there was a party going on.  I let him know he got some bad info and was at the wrong location and that he might want to consider looking somewhere else.  No doubt, he thought I was being rude... :-)

FWIW, I had the conversation with him through the door...fuck if I'm going to open the door to someone I don't know that late at night.

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That's fucking crazy, I had almost exactly the same thing happen about 2 months ago. Jesus.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Workyticket View Post



Well that's some amazingly creepy shit right there. On that I think we can all agree. Have you gone to the the police with all this? I mean, that's just completely wrong by anyone's standards.


+1,000,000 on the creepy meter. This sounds like tactics scientology would use.

Don't f-around, you see these people, call the cops.  While waiting for them to get there, try and get some video/pics of them for proof. 

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It's funny, it only seems really bad in hindsight and when I relate the story like that.  They're completely harmless and the escalation wasn't that noticable when you're in it.  Granted they're still terrible people for doing that, but I was never more than annoyed by them.

It seemed the contact ramped up a great deal in the lead up to this big Witness event they had brewing (which sounded like a revival meeting sort of thing.  JW's trying on the megachurch method for size, or they've got International [catholic] Youth Day envy).  I think that caused a sense of urgency. After I managed to duck them a few times in the lead up to that, they left me a letter one day about it and then I didn't see them for a few months. After that initial six month burst  I've mostly been able to brush them off or they've caught me on my way out etc.

It is pretty outrageous.  But I do think I could stop it if I summoned the backbone to tell them what I really think just once.

I was telling an ex housemate about it, who's Japanese, and she was furious!  So rude! She was like going to wait for them, track them down and give them a piece of her mind and all sorts (I eventually discouraged her).   It was hilarious.

There is an upside.  Angry Aiko is awesome.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCE View Post

It's not a matter about religion, its a matter of being a pompous dickhead and calling them out on things. "I know your faith more than you do, HAR! HAR! one ups sir!" It's a horrible by product of internet culture.



If some lady comes to my door selling Avon she better not have a blank stare when I ask her about her product line. The alarm salesperson should have a clear eyed answer to my concerns and questions when they are selling me their product. The only people who come to my door with their shit together are the Girl Scouts with their delicious cookies....mmmmm. It's why I left the Catholic Church they couldn't make a sale when I got old enough to ask them questions. They came to his door trying to co-opt his soul and he called them on it. They were likely very young men who are out doing what they are supposed to be doing which is learning their trade for their faith. He taught them to be prepared. Guy deserves kudos.

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This thread, well VTran mostly, reminds me of my favorite Koan for some reason.

Quote:

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

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