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Chris Roberts' STAR CITIZEN

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Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

Hey guys, Robert's Space Industries released info at Gamescom today on a $400.00 luxury space liner you can now purchase for the thrill of looking at several .jpegs.



All that money will get the finished product out even quicker, Jacob! Instead of 4 years it will be 3 years instead!



The company is going to implode before SC ever gets released.

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Originally Posted by Headless Fett View Post
 

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All that money will get the finished product out even quicker, Jacob! Instead of 4 years it will be 3 years instead!



The company is going to implode before SC ever gets released.


Yuuup.



Probably have said this before but SC is the clear cut example of what happens when a game studio doesn't give its' game any boundaries.

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Optimistic viewpoint: If this game actually defies expectations and releases at some point, it's going to be bloody magnificent.

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Oh yeah, it'll be damn near revolutionary....if it pulls it off.



Sure, while it's cool that people have been able to get their hands on it, there's just nothing that I've seen that suggests that Star Citizen won't be anything more than some nifty ideas.

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The scripted demo they put together for Gamescom was buggy as hell, forcing them to re-start the scenario more than once, to the point where the live "players" would repeat the horrible dialogue they were role-playing to make it seem "immersive". There were so many crashes and glitches and clipping issues, at one point near the end of the demo a player-driven ground vehicle clipped right through the ramp it was trying to drive up, and it exploded.



And this was a self-contained LAN version of the game with only a few live players in one instanced setting, that they've had over a year to prepare for.



But, reading the YouTube comments, this thing is the Second Coming, and anyone pointing out the faults is a hater and just "jealous" (never mind if they also happen to be backers, they're still haters!).



I know I shouldn't be having so much schadenfreude with this game, but I have to at this point.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

The scripted demo they put together for Gamescom was buggy as hell, forcing them to re-start the scenario more than once, to the point where the live "players" would repeat the horrible dialogue they were role-playing to make it seem "immersive". There were so many crashes and glitches and clipping issues, at one point near the end of the demo a player-driven ground vehicle clipped right through the ramp it was trying to drive up, and it exploded.




Okay, this is both sad and hilarious at the same time.

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Because it's more important to add tech no one asked for and to charge people obscene amount of money for fake spaceships instead of, you know, polishing the game so that it's actually playable.



I'll eat my fucking words if turns out to be successful (because being just "good" is not good enough--it has to be revolutionary to make up for how long it's been delayed), but I'm with Singer: if this ever comes out, it's going to be a massive disappointment.

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This is so weird.  The guy is obviously pouring money into the game, as it is playable and impressive for what's actually been released.  So if he's a con artist, he's playing the long con.  But people can have good intentions, though once you're staring at your bank balance with seven to nine zeros in it that you didn't really earn, I'm sure it's very easy to become hypnotized and drag things out so your balance can grow.  I'd be shocked if he isn't outright skimming and living high on the hog.... or at least paying himself a GIGANTIC salary.



I'd love to read an eventual tell-all book.

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After asserting his refund request should be honoured he received another curt rejection. Finally, he sent letters to the Attorney General of Los Angeles, the Federal Trade Commission and the LA Department of Consumer and Business Affairs, telling them about the dispute. Within a week he received the first part of his refund of $900 from Amazon Payments. Soon after he got the rest of the money ($1650) through Paypal.

It’s worth reading the whole thing if you are a huge nerd for legalities and consumer rights. But basically at the heart of it all is the fact that Star Citizen recently changed its terms of service. Previously, these had said that backers would be entitled to a refund if Roberts Space Industries “has failed to deliver the relevant pledge items” after eighteen months had passed from the release date (see that archived here, under the heading ‘VII . Fundraising and Pledges’). Star Citizen’s initial release date was November 2014. This means that by now any backer who pledged under these original terms is entitled to a refund (people like Streetroller). But the developers still dispute this. Even as they finally accepted the request, they said that the backer was not legally entitled.


https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/07...en-refund/

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

.... or at least paying himself a GIGANTIC salary.



From what I understand of the legal tax disclosures, Roberts and his wife are drawing a $1.5 million yearly salary each from just one of the 5 studios they've opened with the $156 mil they've received so far. They could be receiving even more from the other studios. All legally, apparently.



Quote:

I'd love to read an eventual tell-all book.



Yeah, same here.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post


From what I understand of the legal tax disclosures, Roberts and his wife are drawing a $1.5 million yearly salary each from just one of the 5 studios they've opened with the $156 mil they've received so far. They could be receiving even more from the other studios. All legally, apparently.



See, that's the thing.  Isn't all that money supposed to go to developing SC?  How are they opening other studios with that money and no one seems to care?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 


See, that's the thing.  Isn't all that money supposed to go to developing SC?  How are they opening other studios with that money and no one seems to care?



Beats me.



Oh, remember that Face Over Internet Protocol I mentioned they're working on? Guess what they're going to start selling to go with that?





Of course, seems like playing the game in VR (a feature they've also promised) would interfere with facial recognition, but maybe that's just me.



The supporters of this project are different than almost any other subset of gamers I've ever seen. They're downright cult-ish in their adamant refusal to hear anything disparaging SC, and the praise they keep heaping upon an alpha version of a game that so far only exists in people's minds is sorta creepy. I guess it's a good thing they aren't like the entitled "gimme gimme gimme everything right NOW!!" gamers we all know and love, but still.



I just find it all fascinating and weird.

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Maybe this is just a well funded experiment on the sunk cost fallacy.

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To be fair, don't most games take a long time to make?  I'm not an expert on this stuff, but that's what the supporters seem to keep reiterating.

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Sure. Games do take a long time to make, and there are plenty of examples of games that have seen extended delays before being released.

But most of those games haven't crowdfunded nearly 90 million bucks; most of those games don't sell ridiculously priced premium items when the game still hasn't been released yet; and most of those games aren't just adding features for the fuck of it.

I think there are plenty of valid reasons why people would become wary of this game.
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A five year cycle from early prototypes to final game, starting from zero, while building a studio is hardly something to get upset about. The kitchen sink approach to game modes is by far the most concerning aspect and what's keeping me from buying into it.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stelios View Post
 

A five year cycle from early prototypes to final game, starting from zero, while building a studio is hardly something to get upset about. The kitchen sink approach to game modes is by far the most concerning aspect and what's keeping me from buying into it.



No one would mind if it was just a long-in-development game, especially for something ground-breaking; it's more the constant broken promises, feature creep, and naked begging for more cash that gets me.



And it's nowhere even near 'final stage', they're still working on the 3.0 version of an ALPHA build that was first promised for 2016. Backers (like me) will be lucky if this game drops before 2020, if ever.



And they didn't even mention Squadron 42, the single-player version of this game which is all many of us initially wanted. I'm guessing a lot of cash went towards this cast list:



Cast  



Gary Oldman Gary Oldman ...
Mark Hamill Mark Hamill ...
Lt. Cdr. Steve 'Old Man' Colton (voice)
Mark Strong Mark Strong ...
(voice)
Sophie Wu Sophie Wu ...
(voice)
John Rhys-Davies John Rhys-Davies ...
Randall Graves (voice)
Liam Cunningham Liam Cunningham ...
Captain Noah White (voice)
Jack Huston Jack Huston ...
Cal Mason (voice)
Ben Mendelsohn Ben Mendelsohn ...
(voice)
Rhona Mitra Rhona Mitra ...
Executive Officer Kelly (voice)
Gillian Anderson Gillian Anderson ...
Captain MacLaren (voice)
Sandi Gardiner Sandi Gardiner ...
Nayara 'Pusher' Fell (voice)
Andy Serkis Andy Serkis ...
Thul'Oquray (voice)
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Yeah, it does seem strange that they're treating it like a finished game (by selling features) even though it isn't finished.  Cart before the horse and all that.  I can imagine though that they're trying to find ways to satiate a restless group.  Still sounds incredibly sketchy to me.

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A[quote name="Jacob Singer" url="/community/t/145317/chris-roberts-star-citizen/150#]

And they didn't even mention Squadron 42, the single-player version of this game which is all many of us initially wanted. I'm guessing a lot of cash went towards this cast list:

[/quote]

Fuck me, that's some cast.
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Employing that kind of cast before you're out of Alpha seems crazy. It's like putting all of the pizza toppings on your plate today, when you plan to cook the pizza base next week.

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AI'm not going to lie. I would totally snack on a bowl of pepperoni, mushrooms and black olives right now.



Still wouldn't buy Star Citizen, though.
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Seems like a lot of money for Freelancer 2.



If he would have just remastered the first Privateer with a modern flight-sim engine, I would have shelled out.

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Chris Roberts is tired of your fucking moaning about the game not coming out, so shut the fuck up and just keep giving him your money, you fucking fucks.



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[Chris pointed out that] triple AAA studios delay games all the time, and his studio is no different — except in that it warns its backers, repeatedly, that release windows are unpredictable and destined to move. And frankly, he’s tired of what he calls “fan trolling.”

 
 “People still say ‘Chris, you lied to me’, even if I did give all those caveats for our predictions. People forget all those qualifiers. I am fed up of giving someone an estimate – I’d rather say, here’s the data I have, here’s the schedule I see. This is what we are hoping for. Software developers at all levels tend to be optimistic – you have to be to build big things. But I hope that with what we’re doing, show what we’re doing every week, we can educate a fair amount of people about the process. There will always be cynics. […] There’s a subset of people who say ‘this thing is never going to come out, it’s a scam’. Which is plainly not true. It would be the worst scam in the world. We’re hiring all these people, we’re working really hard. We’re showing what we’re doing every week.”
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It doesn't have to never come out for it to be a scam.  A scam involves making money off suckers.  Was the above quote in the original kickstarter literature?  If not, he fucking lied to people.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post
 

Chris Roberts is tired of your fucking moaning about the game not coming out, so shut the fuck up and just keep giving him your money, you fucking fucks.




The problem is scope creep.  Deliver what you promised for the game and then release enhancements.  Don't keep piling on scope just because YOU CAN...at some point, you have to deliver a product.



Also, it needs to be posted again:




At some point, stop building the recliner and releast the tire swing.

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Roberts really is a vile piece of shit.  How arrogant do you have to be to collect $150M from complete strangers, and then bitch at them for wanting some accountability for their hard earned money?  What a fucking asshole.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

Roberts really is a vile piece of shit.  How arrogant do you have to be to collect $150M from complete strangers, and then bitch at them for wanting some accountability for their hard earned money?  What a fucking asshole.



If this were to happen in the standard software development world, there'd be lawsuits flying everywhere.  That fact should pretty much shut him the hell up.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 


If this were to happen in the standard software development world, there'd be lawsuits flying everywhere.  That fact should pretty much shut him the hell up.



I was just about to say, how has this guy not been sued into oblivion at this point?  I bet a bunch of backers could get together and form a class action....

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 


I was just about to say, how has this guy not been sued into oblivion at this point?  I bet a bunch of backers could get together and form a class action....



There's lots of reasons, but primarily it's because the written documents governing the way in which people contribute/donate money were written in a manner that makes it very difficult to establish liability.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 


I was just about to say, how has this guy not been sued into oblivion at this point?  I bet a bunch of backers could get together and form a class action....



I'd be very surprised if there weren't a massive suit being put together already.



A Statement of Work (SOW) is essentially a contract between the client and the developer regarding the software project.  It covers what will be delivered and when it will be delivered, and it outlines how billing will take place.   If deliverables aren't met, then there's a process outlined in the SOW to explain how to proceed...there can be penalties/give backs, there can be immediate cancellation of the software project, etc.


My big question: was the wording of the Kickstarter campaign essentially a SOW?  If so, then how can it be enforced legally to get Roberts to deliver a project or hand out refunds?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 


There's lots of reasons, but primarily it's because the written documents governing the way in which people contribute/donate money were written in a manner that makes it very difficult to establish liability.



Didn't the original kickstarter say the game was going to be release in 2014 or something?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 


Didn't the original kickstarter say the game was going to be release in 2014 or something?



I haven't looked at this Kickstarter, but I looked heavily at another one when considering a lawsuit.  Amongst the problems:



--so much hedging language about delivery date/features that pinning down an exact mechanism of breach was difficult.


--Arbitration/Venue/Jurisdiction clauses were problematic.


--There was a clause, IIRC, limited class action feasibility (aka making it nearly impossible).


--There was a "limitation on damages" clause that would be difficult to overcome.



Basically, it wasn't worth the time and energy.  I'm sure other attorneys have looked at this and probably reached the same conclusion.

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There's been some funky stuff happening over the weekend with this whole thing, people tweeting they've quit the production, then the tweets being deleted, rumors that they're looking to sell the whole IP, some tax filing for protections in the UK.



Mostly just rumors that "more info is coming"...

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

There's been some funky stuff happening over the weekend with this whole thing, people tweeting they've quit the production, then the tweets being deleted, rumors that they're looking to sell the whole IP, some tax filing for protections in the UK.



Mostly just rumors that "more info is coming"...



This is kind of old, but:



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  • “The popular consensus among most of the people who reached out is that Chris Roberts is not intentionally a con man. ‘He doesn’t set out in the morning to screw anybody over. He’s just incredibly arrogant,’ CS2 stated.”
  • “According to several sources, being an employee of Cloud Imperium Games meant subjecting yourself to public insults, screaming, profanity, racism, and stress so powerful that some people would become physically ill.”
  • “It was also alleged that Roberts’ wife and Cloud Imperium Games Vice President of Marketing Sandi Gardiner enforced discriminatory hiring practices.”
    • Sandi allegedly informed employees not to hire people if too much time had passed since their education, putting them at around 40 years old,  since they would be harder to fire and allegedly used race as a hiring factor, refusing to hire someone because she was black.
    • Roberts and Sandi used company funds for private expenses, such as paying for the house they live in, vacations, travel for Sandi to go to movie auditions, and more along those lines—the sources describe a lavish lifestyle funded by the crowdfunding campaign.
    • Lizzy says one of the most common things discussed by the sources was the lack of progress on Star Citizen. One source said they weren’t making a game but commercials, and another said they were always building towards the next event for a flashy demo, rather than making the game itself.
    • Many of the sources felt guilt, like they were part of some con and wanted to get out because of the feeling


https://techraptor.net/content/star-citi...ism-ethics

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

There's been some funky stuff happening over the weekend with this whole thing, people tweeting they've quit the production, then the tweets being deleted, rumors that they're looking to sell the whole IP, some tax filing for protections in the UK.



Mostly just rumors that "more info is coming"...



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