Gun Control thread

[scottieferguson]

Maybe I'm reading Dahlia's post wrong, but I think this about sums it up:

[vtran]

Chaz originally posted this Rolling Stone piece over in the 'school shooting' thread of Misc. Culture forum.

Thought I'd cross post it here for any that might have missed it....it's a good read.

The NRA vs. America

How the country’s biggest gun-rights group thwarts regulation and helps put military-grade weapons in the hands of killers

<excerpt>

Quote:

Of the top 15 gun manufacturers, 11 now manufacture assault weapons, many of them variants of the AR-15 – derived from a military rifle designed to kill enemy soldiers at close-to-medium range with little marksmanship. The industry loves these "modern sporting rifles" because they can be tricked out with expensive scopes, loaders, lights and lasers. "Most of the money is in accessories," says Feldman.

As one gun rep recently boasted to an industry publication: "The AR platform is like Legos for grown men." And a 2012 report from Bushmaster's parent company boasted that the industry's embrace of these guns has led to "increased long-term growth in the long-gun market while attracting a younger generation of shooters." The campaign certainly seems to be working.

Twenty-year-old Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster. Twenty-five-year-old James Holmes, the Aurora shooter, was in many ways the dream customer of the surging industry. He bought an AR-15 .233-caliberSmith & Wesson assault rifle – a category the company's CEO bragged was "extremely hot" – tricked it out with a 100-round ultrahigh-capacity magazine and then purchased thousands of rounds from BulkAmmo.com, spending nearly $15,000 on his greater arsenal.

[syd]

Jesus, that legos quote make me sick. Guns are not a fucking TOY you miserable pieces of shit. It's a tool, a tool designed for one thing and one thing only: to make killing as easy as possible. As such, doesn't it make sense that it should ONLY be in the hands of reasonable, rational, SANE individuals who practice GOOD JUDGEMENT? Can anyone really argue with that? I've gone over it and again and again in my head, and I really can't think of a single argument against that point.

[disciple_72]

Meanwhile, CNN's Piers Morgan continues to ask "why does anyone need an AR15?". Edward R Murrow he ain't, and the reasons for turning this into a personal crusade are pretty transparent, but at least someone is still asking those questions I guess. Last night he was at a shooting range, in an effort to show how frighteningly powerful legal weapons can be. It seems appropriate somehow that the firearms instructor was Kenny Powers:

http://www.examiner.com/video/piers-morg...ault-rifle

http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02...hpt=pm_mid

[dimwit]

This just annoys the hell out of me as the previous posts showed. AR 15's are no more dangerous or safe than any other rifle. It's a weapon. End of story.

And that asshole in Newtown... he wasn't qualified to hold a licence. He *couldn't* legally buy *any* gun. By the looks of things it doesn't look like he ever get a licence. Just because his mother was a total dipshit allowed him to get a gun. There is NO gun control law that could prevent this from happening. But the hand wringing continues.

[Fafhrd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimwit 
There is NO gun control law that could prevent this from happening.

Except, y'know, banning private citizens from owning and storing firearms.

[dimwit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fafhrd 

Except, y'know, banning private citizens from owning and storing firearms.

Uhuh and that would stop this mess? Betcha it wouldn't. We had a dipshit that went into Provincial Parliament with a smg - something that's been banned from civ ownership forever - he'd ripped off an armoury. Yeah, shit security and all in the armoury but it still meant that someone had a gun. Not legally and something that is banned but hell, he still had it.

It doesn't matter what the *thing* is. Gun, knife, hammer, saw blade, hand. It's a tool and the wrong focus. The focus needs to be on the perps, not the tools. As long as everyone keeps focussing on the wrong thing it will never change.

[rando]

I think David Simon hit it on the head why the focus needs to remain on the gun and not the perp:

Quote:

Human beings are violent in every culture. But only Americans have this level of armament available to private citizenry with a minimum of regulation. And only Americans are dying like this at this rate. Again, we have 50 percent of the privately owned guns on the planet and we have 75 percent of the mass killings. And our homicide rate is in excess of every other culture. And you have introduced no differential between cultures. You’ve not introduced anything — not a single other factor other than guns — that explains this. In the absence of any other cited factor, it’s you who is avoiding the obvious. You’re avoiding dealing with the gun. Deal with them, reduce the American gun culture to levels comparable with the rest of the civilized world, and our murder rate will become more comparable to the rest of the world. That is the argument. It avoids nothing. It speaks to the one factor that is dramatically different between our culture and all of the other, less murderous ones. Not violent imagery, not rates of mental dysfunction, not even rates of common or aggravated assault. All of those things are comparable. Guns are not comparable. If you have another factor to argue otherwise, raise it right now. If you have nothing, then you have nothing. And you are merely crossing your arms and refusing to deal with the mechanics of American killing because, well, you don’t want to deal with the mechanics of American killing.

And if you don’t think the mechanics are an essential point of discussion, think about this:

A British military unit firing en masse in Boston managed to kill little more than a half dozen Americans. Same thing for the Massachusetts unit firing into a crowd in Baltimore in 1861. Same thing for armed Pinkertons firing into steelworkers at Homestead. Dozens of assailants and dozens of weapons once produced a half dozen or so casualities in their best efforts at massacre.

One present-day kid armed with semiautomatic weapons can now murder two dozen or more on a college campus or in an elementary school. You missed the revolution here... It isn’t about the human capacity for violence. That’s remained constant throughout history. What has changed is the ballistics. And that is what sane people are trying to address.

http://davidsimon.com/addendum-the-natio...lchildren/

[dan baker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimwit 

This just annoys the hell out of me as the previous posts showed. AR 15's are no more dangerous or safe than any other rifle. It's a weapon. End of story.

Umm, bullshit. An AR15 is way more dangerous than my little single shot, bolt action .17 or my dad's .22 from a hundred years ago. Different kinds of weapons have different kinds of destructive capabilities.

[dan baker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimwit 

Uhuh and that would stop this mess? Betcha it wouldn't. We had a dipshit that went into Provincial Parliament with a smg - something that's been banned from civ ownership forever - he'd ripped off an armoury. Yeah, shit security and all in the armoury but it still meant that someone had a gun. Not legally and something that is banned but hell, he still had it.

It doesn't matter what the *thing* is. Gun, knife, hammer, saw blade, hand. It's a tool and the wrong focus. The focus needs to be on the perps, not the tools. As long as everyone keeps focussing on the wrong thing it will never change.

Do you realize that using an example of someone breaking a law to rationalize away further laws is stupid?

[yt]

There is an insane situation in L.A. right now.  An ex-cop is killing police officers because he believes he was fraudulently railroaded out of the LAPD.  He has a rocket launcher and a high-powered rifle that can penetrate a car's engine block.

The LA Times' coverage

[jcr39]

AGawker has some of that man's Facebook posts up right now, he regrets not living to see the third Hangover movie.

Link:
http://m.gawker.com/5982480/the-killer-l...r-everyone

[disciple_72]

Yeah, been watching this all morning on the local news and saw his manifesto online. Guy's fucking NUTS.

Sorry if this is in poor taste, but the first thing I thought when I saw the initial report was "it's a real life Maniac Cop!". He even has sort of a Z'darface thing going on.

[yt]

I was thinking it's a real life Rambo.  "You'd better bring a lot of body bags."

"The Violence of action will be HIGH. I am the reason TAC alert was established [...] Whatever pre-planned responses you have established for a scenario like me, shelve it," he writes. "Whatever contingency plan you have, shelve it. Whatever tertiary plan you've created, shelve it. I am a walking exigent circumstance with no OFF or reset button."

It's sad to me.  The guy's obviously snapped but what the hell?  How did it come to this?

[disciple_72]

I agree it is very, very sad. If you see some of the things he's written, he's 100% convinced that he's the victim in all this.

Have to wonder what kind of mental evaluations he had for his previous career. They really let people like this handle guns?

[jcr39]

AWhere do you even get a rocket launcher?

[vtran]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcr39 

Where do you even get a rocket launcher?

Rocket launchers turned in during L.A. gun buyback not functional

[martin blank]

A[quote name="jcr39" url="/community/t/146509/gun-control-thread/60#post_3466603"]Where do you even get a rocket launcher?[/quote]

First you have to do the Babysitting mission...

[chief hallorhan]

There's an entire other factor at play here which isn't often addressed.  I believe it goes to the core of a person's desire to own CERTAIN weaponry. 

SOME  Americans actually fear their government in a way that differs from other industrialized countries.  I'm sure Japan and Australia and Canada and most European citizens are often at odds with their leadership, but for some reason the Americans have taken it a step further.    We may dislike our government sometimes and hate their corruption and lack of progress or ability, but generally it isn't even an idea that our own governments will strip our freedoms and sick our militaries upon us.  We just do not  consider it.  AND Americans think we are fools for not preparing for that inevitable conflict.  Apparently most first world countries have given up their freedoms and we are sitting ducks for their own governments.  We will be unarmed and unprepared when our governments enslave us.  It's happened in other places so why couldn't it happen again?  I hear this all the time from my American friends.  It COULD happen.  AND what will we do then since we are so out-gunned by our own government or police force?  I don't have that answer because I've never even entertained the idea. 

Is it complete paranoia?  Distrust to the extreme?  How did the mighty USA breed thousands of citizens who are arming to fight their OWN government when need be?   The fear that the government becomes SO powerful, it will turn on its people and enslave them.  AND the military will execute those orders blindly.  That is a genuine fear among a scary number of people. 

Then there's the other fear which completely contradicts the first fear.  That the government is so inept and incapable that when trouble comes down, the average citizen cannot rely on them.  The government will be unable to respond to outbreaks of violence and discord.  Marauding gangs roaming the country after a natural catastrophe will leave the unarmed American vulnerable and easy prey.  Inept government means the armed populace will have to restore order and take to the streets imposing vigilante justice just to protect their homes and children.   Senator Lindsey Graham pretty much said this is a real possibility and any boyscout should be prepared for the End of Days scenario. 

SO this is FEAR.  Fear of a government too strong.  Fear of a government too weak. 

I think this fear is unique to the good ole USA.  Maybe the rest of us are fooling ourselves; happy to blindly go about our days without worrying about our "all too powerful" or "all too weak" governments plotting to kill is. 

I know I oversimplified, but I find it equally fascinating and scary.  IS this the heart of certain weapon control?  If somehow this FEAR was removed then the need to own would also be removed.  

Some people will always love their toys, but can't we address the frighten person's need to own certain weaponry?    

[Reasor]

AHallorhan raises an interesting question. Can we start publicly deriding gun owners as gutless cowards? By which, I mean that I already do and why don't others get in on the act?

[vtran]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reasor 

Hallorhan raises an interesting question. Can we start publicly deriding gun owners as gutless cowards? By which, I mean that I already do and why don't others get in on the act?

It's been awhile since I've been to a gun range but from what I remember, a good many of these would-be Rambo's are far from "gutless".

[chief hallorhan]

Well 'gutless' might be extreme, but certainly 'fearful'.  Doesn't some sort of FEAR compel you to buy a weapon? (I'm not referring to hunters)

I wonder what percentage of gun owners would admit "I don't WANT to have to own this thing.  I don't want to have to bring a firearm into my house but I'm afraid of ******************* if I don't have it."

IF you own a handgun and it's stored in a lock box somewhere; that's one thing.  BUT if you own a semi-assault weapon and it's loaded and under your bed to help you sleep;  YES you are AFRAID of something.  FEAR.  Why else?  Is THAT fear a reality?  Do so many Americans feel FEAR in their own homes.  FEAR of their government or their neighbour?   That is  a massive failing on both local and federal government.

I don't think FEAR makes you a coward.  BUT Fear motivates a lot of specific gun sales. 

Again, this isn't about shotguns and handguns.  (though, wouldn't it be nice if they weren't necessary either)  I'm mostly referring to military grade weapons.

(AND please, with the second amendment: Just because you CAN buy something, doesn't mean you should WANT to or HAVE to.)

[dimwit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rando 

I think David Simon hit it on the head why the focus needs to remain on the gun and not the perp:

http://davidsimon.com/addendum-the-natio...lchildren/

Urrr damn! That's a good rebuttal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Baker 
Umm, bullshit. An AR15 is way more dangerous than my little single shot, bolt action .17 or my dad's .22 from a hundred years ago. Different kinds of weapons have different kinds of destructive capabilities.

Sure but you're not comparing like to like either. There's waay more rifles out there as destructive or moreso than the AR15. It's become a whipping boy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Baker 
Do you realize that using an example of someone breaking a law to rationalize away further laws is stupid?

No. Do you think passing ineffectual laws helps the situation or prevents these tragedies?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Hallorhan 
Some people will always love their toys, but can't we address the frighten person's need to own certain weaponry?    

Another fallout from Watergate? Total distrust of anyone in power?

BTW I should really make myself clear on this. I'm not FOR guns. I'm just not about to vilify everyone either. If it was up to me I'd ban everything because that's the only real solution. Remove ALL guns and then nobody could get their hot little hands on them whether they "qualified" or not. As it stands, removing certain arms because of hysteria doesn't accomplish anything except make the vocal minority feel good until it happens again. It accomplishes nothing and whitewashes the underlying causes.

[turingmachine75]

A'Hysteria'? Really?

[muzman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

It's been awhile since I've been to a gun range but from what I remember, a good many of these would-be Rambo's are far from "gutless".

Hah.  I've noticed that as well.  All this supposed worship of soldiering and survival.  Personal fittness fairly low on the agenda.  (it's even true of a great many of those mercs and private army guys.  It's almost as though beer belly denotes rank somehow).

[vtran]

Just when you think Wayne LaPierre reached the peak of paranoia, he takes out a ladder.

Quote:

Wayne LaPierre is very afraid

It's amazing the NRA head ever leaves the house, considering his deluded paranoia about the world around him

It must be terrifying to be Wayne LaPierre, the man who has led the NRA for the past two decades. For years he has shared his nightmares and fears of daily living with us — a worldview of paralyzing paranoia, where terrorists, bad weather and Latin American gangsters lurk behind every corner, ready to prey on unarmed citizens.

“Latin American drug gangs have invaded every city of significant size in the United States. Phoenix is already one of the kidnapping capitals of the world,” he explains in his latest expression of anguish, an Op-Ed published in the Daily Caller yesterday. “And though the states on the U.S./Mexico border may be the first places in the nation to suffer from cartel violence, by no means are they the last.”

“Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals,” he continues. “These are perils we are sure to face — not just maybe. It’s not paranoia to buy a gun. It’s survival.”

While the world has always been an impossibly forbidding place, LaPierre continues, our socialist president has made it it worse, naturally: “When the next terrorist attack comes, the Obama administration won’t accept responsibility. Instead, it will do what it does every time: blame a scapegoat and count on Obama’s ‘mainstream’ media enablers to go along.”

And finally, the solution: “No wonder Americans are buying guns in record numbers right now, while they still can and before their choice about which firearm is right for their family is taken away forever.”

<cont.>

The Nine Most Insane Quotes From The NRA’s New Apocalyptic Op-Ed

Quote:

1. Violent Latino Gangs Are Out To Get You: “Latin American drug gangs have invaded every city of significant size in the United States. Phoenix is already one of the kidnapping capitals of the world, and though the states on the U.S./Mexico border may be the first places in the nation to suffer from cartel violence, by no means are they the last.”

2. And They’re Streaming Over The Border: “The president flagrantly defies the 2006 federal law ordering the construction of a secure border fence along the entire Mexican border. So the border today remains porous not only to people seeking jobs in the U.S., but to criminals whose jobs are murder, rape, robbery and kidnapping.”

3. And So Is Al-Qaeda: “Ominously, the border also remains open to agents of al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. Numerous intelligence sources have confirmed that foreign terrorists have identified the southern U.S. border as their path of entry into the country.”

4. And Obama Will Use Them As An Excuse To Take Your Guns: “A heinous act of mass murder—either by terrorists or by some psychotic who should have been locked up long ago—will be the pretext to unleash a tsunami of gun control.”

5. If You Want Gun Safety, You Want Civilization To Collapse: “After Hurricane Sandy, we saw the hellish world that the gun prohibitionists see as their utopia. Looters ran wild in south Brooklyn. There was no food, water or electricity. And if you wanted to walk several miles to get supplies, you better get back before dark, or you might not get home at all.”

6. Thanks To Obama, There Will Soon Be No Cops: “Meanwhile, President Obama is leading this country to financial ruin, borrowing over a trillion dollars a year for phony “stimulus” spending and other payoffs for his political cronies. Nobody knows if or when the fiscal collapse will come, but if the country is broke, there likely won’t be enough money to pay for police protection. And the American people know it.”

7. But The NRA Is Totally Not Paranoid: “Hurricanes. Tornadoes. Riots. Terrorists. Gangs. Lone criminals. These are perils we are sure to face—not just maybe. It’s not paranoia to buy a gun. It’s survival. It’s responsible behavior, and it’s time we encourage law-abiding Americans to do just that.”

8. It’s Just That The Collapse Of Civilization Is Right Around The Corner: “We, the American people, clearly see the daunting forces we will undoubtedly face: terrorists, crime, drug gangs, the possibility of Euro-style debt riots, civil unrest or natural disaster.”

9. And We Shall Overcome: “We [the NRA] are the largest civil rights organization in the world.”

[bailey]

Man, I love shooting me some tornadoes.

[vtran]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

Man, I love shooting me some tornadoes.

Well, many of them do come here illegally.

30 Rock reference!!

Frank's movie idea: "What about a tornado that hits a handgun factory and it's just spinning around shooting handguns?

[Reasor]

AThe highlight comes in this paragraph, on the first page of LaPierre's screed:

"Gun owners are not buying firearms because they anticipate a confrontation with the government. Rather, we anticipate confrontations where the government isn’t there—or simply doesn’t show up in time."


This public disowning of a line of thought that has defined the NRA since at least the election of Bill Clinton would probably come as a surprise to a lot of the nuts that LaPierre has helped arm over the years in the pursuit of gun sales. If they were readers.

[muzman]

I am just agog at the whole thing.  My mind is blown.  That's the most naked fear mongering propaganda since..well, propagandist was an actual job.  It makes Ted Kozinski's manifesto seem relatively sane.  Ten years ago that's the stuff you'd get from some outright crank in the midst of a gun debate, and the pro-gun people you'd been arguing with until then would go "Ok, for the record we're not all as crazy as that guy".

Head of the friggin' NRA!  Head!

[vtran]

Newest episode of Frontline

Raising Adam Lanza

and from the Hartford Courant

Raising Adam Lanza

Who Was Adam Lanza, And What Was The Nature Of His Relationship With His Mother?
Watch The FRONTLINE Special Tues., Feb. 19 at 10 p.m.

[martin blank]

AThoughts on Biden's "Buy a shotgun"?

I found it hilarious and charming, but then if he read aloud from the Necronomicon I would also find it hilarious and charming, so.

[vtran]

I honestly wonder if Biden realizes what he's saying sometimes and how out of context it could be taken.

I did notice something amusing on a motorcycle forum I frequent; some of the resident gun nuts seemingly wanted to criticize his comments but couldn't quite articulate it as he was being somewhat of a proponent for gun ownership.

They couldn't really refer to him as "crazy" because by doing so, they would, in a roundabout way, end up pointing the crazy finger at themselves.

[zhukov]

Nah, Joe's got a point. The only thing these semi-automatic rifles do better than a simple shotgun/pistol combo is kill (lots of) people. And target shooting. Neither of which is protected by the second amendment, so you get these weird arguments about actually constitutes an 'assault weapon' and how an AR-15 is no different than a candy cane, if you really think about it.

[turingmachine75]

AThe first paragraph in today's LA Times tells us that this weeks OC shooter was a 'gamer'.

Yeah, but what if it was just Minecraft?