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Does Jenny McCarthy deserve this much hate?
(03-22-2019, 12:47 AM)farsight Wrote: I have heard no rational reason to avoid being vaccinated against common illnesses.

I think that's because no one has been arguing for avoiding vaccination against common illnesses.  We're just taken a little aback by how hard you come down against what most of us think of as a crude, DIY but effective form of vaccination.
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(03-22-2019, 12:56 AM)schwartz Wrote:
(03-22-2019, 12:47 AM)farsight Wrote: I have heard no rational reason to avoid being vaccinated against common illnesses.

I think that's because no one has been arguing for avoiding vaccination against common illnesses.  We're just taken a little aback by how hard you come down against what most of us think of as a crude, DIY but effective form of vaccination.

Inflicting the illness on them is not vaccinating them; it's precisely the opposite.

Arguing that instead of getting a vaccination to immunize them, a child should instead be made ill -is- arguing against vaccination.

That's why I'm coming down hard; because the rationale being described here is not rational.

It is being suggested that immunization via illness is as good as immunization via vaccination. If that were true, we should be throwing Flu Parties each year instead of getting shots. We should have Measles Parties and Small Pox Parties. Just inflict every illness on every child, and let the strongest survive. 

People have a 99.9900% chance of surviving measles, a 99.9984% chance of surviving chicken pox, and a 99.9990% chance of surviving the flu. The chicken pox is more deadly than most recent flus.

I mentioned the colonial method of cutting sores from a dying man and putting them under people's skin to attempt to vaccinate them. I'm sure it sounds barbaric... but it's actually a less reckless and crude form of immunization than simply exposing people until they get sick. At least back then, they just lacked the skill to do any better. Today, we have no such excuse.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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If I have kids, yeah, vaccination all the way.  I wasn't intentionally exposed to it, mainly because the vaccine wasn't available in the US until I was in high school, but I did go to school, so I got it.  It was itchy as fuck, and I can't stand calamine lotion to this day, but I got to stay home from school, and got a bunch of Tin Tin comics out of it.
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(03-22-2019, 04:42 AM)farsight Wrote: That's why I'm coming down hard; because the rationale being described here is not rational.

It is being suggested that immunization via illness is as good as immunization via vaccination. If that were true, we should be throwing Flu Parties each year instead of getting shots. We should have Measles Parties and Small Pox Parties. Just inflict every illness on every child, and let the strongest survive. 

People have a 99.9900% chance of surviving measles, a 99.9984% chance of surviving chicken pox, and a 99.9990% chance of surviving the flu. The chicken pox is more deadly than most recent flus.

YAAAAS!  Darwinism!  Only the strong shall live on!!!

My mother (the aforementioned pediatric nurse with 30+ years in hospital settings) instilled in me that, for largely non-lethal, common illnesses, a natural immunity is "better" than a manufactured one.  Keeping in mind, she retired in 2000, just a few short years after the chickenpox vaccine was introduced to the world, and after I was already an adult of 25 (the adult part being debatable).  The timeframe in which she spent her professional career certainly colored her opinions.  She'd never have suggested we not get a rubella, measles, polio, etc. vaccine.  But by her logic, she'd also not expect us get a flu or chickenpox vaccine... and as a an adult, I never have.

Also, just a few minutes of minor googling netted me the following excerpted form a relatively recent study commissioned by the State of Michigan:

It is true that natural infection almost always causes better immunity than vaccines. Because after a single natural infection, you often get immunity (like with measles or chickenpox) whereas you generally need 2 or more doses of a vaccine to be protected.


Now, in fairness to your point of view, the remainder of the study goes into a lot of detail regarding why, despite this, it is still always preferable to get vaccinated rather than develop a natural immunity, to, for example, combat the ancillary dangers of having chickenpox potentially leading to being susceptible to far more severe illness, etc.

[shrug] 

Cull the herd!



I feel like you're one of those folks who obsessively insists that their kids constantly use Purell until their little hands bleed.  Also, I'm mostly just having fun here, don't take it personally.
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny: 
Glad that you guys worked that out amongst yourselves.

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There is a theory that vaccinations and Purell culture lead to the prevalence of peanut allergies.

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My theory is that peanut allergies are what actually killed the dinosaurs.
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Legumes didn't evolve until just after the Cretaceous.

Beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact.
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The more pertinent question; why do they sell you a bag of tasty peanuts at a Hudson News, only to announce on the flight that peanuts aren't allowed due to travelers with allergies.
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(03-22-2019, 03:33 PM)turingmachine75 Wrote: Legumes didn't evolve until just after the Cretaceous.

Beautiful theory killed by an ugly fact.

I'm going off alternative facts, tho.
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(03-22-2019, 02:23 PM)Neil Spurn Wrote: My mother (the aforementioned pediatric nurse with 30+ years in hospital settings) instilled in me that, for largely non-lethal, common illnesses, a natural immunity is "better" than a manufactured one.  Keeping in mind, she retired in 2000, just a few short years after the chickenpox vaccine was introduced to the world, and after I was already an adult of 25 (the adult part being debatable).  The timeframe in which she spent her professional career certainly colored her opinions.  She'd never have suggested we not get a rubella, measles, polio, etc. vaccine.  But by her logic, she'd also not expect us get a flu or chickenpox vaccine... and as a an adult, I never have.

Also, just a few minutes of minor googling netted me the following excerpted form a relatively recent study commissioned by the State of Michigan:

It is true that natural infection almost always causes better immunity than vaccines. Because after a single natural infection, you often get immunity (like with measles or chickenpox) whereas you generally need 2 or more doses of a vaccine to be protected.


Now, in fairness to your point of view, the remainder of the study goes into a lot of detail regarding why, despite this, it is still always preferable to get vaccinated rather than develop a natural immunity, to, for example, combat the ancillary dangers of having chickenpox potentially leading to being susceptible to far more severe illness, etc.

[shrug] 

Cull the herd!



I feel like you're one of those folks who obsessively insists that their kids constantly use Purell until their little hands bleed.  Also, I'm mostly just having fun here, don't take it personally.

I get that people's natural biases impact their views. But when presented with science and reason that counter my preconception, I try to adapt. I would hope that I (and the CDC) could have convinced your mother.

Note that they do a booster for the chicken pox vaccine - I'd take 2 shots over being sick as well.

So, do you think it makes logical sense to not get a flu shot?

On one side you have: Maybe save a few bucks and a few minutes of your day, maybe you won't get sick.

On the other side: Free under most insurance, has a high likelihood of preventing an illness that will cost you days of feeling terrible, and in rare instances can kill you. Also, helps prevent the people around you from getting sick as well.

Personally, I don't have kids, and I'm probably pretty average when it comes to keeping things clean. I just embrace science. Not kinda-sorta believe in the skills and policies based on hundreds of years of experimentation, deduction and review; but fully buy in. For me it comes down to a simple logical argument:

Not getting sick is better than getting sick.
Immunization through vaccines means not getting sick.
Immunization through getting sick means getting sick.
Therefore, immunization through vaccines is better than immunization through getting sick.

I don't see the flaw in the argument, so it makes me a little crazy to hear people who seem to be in agreement with it then go, "But in this case, nah, whatever, let's go with faith/fate over science/action. I'll take being miserable for a week for no reason, and throw in a small chance of death on the side!"
Gamertag: Tweakee
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How the anti-vaccination movement crept into mainstream, GOP politics:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/2...am-1344955

Quote:Among some of these officials, that libertarian demand for medical freedom has displaced the traditional GOP view that it’s a civic responsibility to immunize your kids to prevent the spread of disease. As more politicians take an anti-mandate stand, some end up adopting bogus theories about the supposed harms of vaccination — threatening to roll back one of public health’s great achievements.

In Kentucky, Gov. Matt Bevin said vaccine mandates were un-American. In Oregon, the state party used vaccine mandates to bash Democrats as violating parental rights. And in the California Senate, all 10 Republicans last Wednesday opposed a measure aimed at stopping bogus medical exemptions from vaccination.

President Donald Trump gave measles vaccination a nine-second endorsement on the White House lawn recently. “They gotta get their shots,” he told a press scrum on April 27. In a speech at the World Health Assembly last week, HHS Secretary Alex Azar decried misinformation from “conspiracy groups” that “confuse well-meaning parents.”

Azar and other top health officials, at the CDC and elsewhere, have advocated consistently for vaccination. But Trump himself has shown a disdain for scientific and government expertise, and for years — including during his campaign — he backed a debunked claim that childhood shots cause autism.

The arguments of the skeptics — that vaccine-preventable diseases like measles are God’s will, a natural process, or even a way of strengthening a child’s immune system, that the government and a rapacious pharmaceutical industry are joined in an insidious cover-up of the dangers of vaccines — are varied, and cut across political and geographic spectra, from ultra-liberal bastions of California to the religious conservatism of the South.

The GOP tilt is more pronounced among state lawmakers than among federal ones; many prominent Republicans in Congress including most of the 16 GOP doctors have endorsed vaccines. The most visible and voluble exception is Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), an ophthalmologist who says his own kids were vaccinated but the decision should be left to the parents, not the government.

But in states where legislators have advanced serious efforts to tighten restrictions, such as Maine, Washington, Colorado and Oregon, nearly all of the opponents are Republicans who’ve taken a medical freedom stance.

“The more they dig into it being about freedom, the more susceptible they become to the theories,” said Dave Gorski, a Michigan physician who has tracked the anti-vaccine movement for two decades. “Appeals to freedom are like the gateway drug to pseudoscience.”
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I do believe that so much of the problem, like a lot of things, come from a sympathetic place: People do not trust the pharmaceutical industry. And often for good reason. The fact that health care, medication, and treatment can be so fucking expensive and people generally believe that corporations would rather treat disease then outright cure them for profit.  It's a perfect storm of bullshit and another reason why the privatization of the health industry is hurting people.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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I think people are just idiots and will believe anything but the truth.
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Yeah, my mom runs a daycare, so I see these kinds of people a LOT. They seem perfectly normal and reasonably intelligent... except that rather than listen to the advice of a woman who has been caring for kids for 40 years, they will emphatically parrot and defend the latest thing they read on Facebook.

It's a combination of being ignorant, gullible, and a control freak. They don't understand science, don't have critical thinking skills, and think if they can micromanage every minuscule aspect of their child's life that nothing bad could ever happen to them.

Almond milk! No gluten! All organic! No GMO! If there's a health-related idea based on "people say" rather than science, they'll be all over it, because it makes them feel smart and in control. Even though their kids tend to be shorter, thinner and more pale.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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We homeschooled my son until High School and some of our friends (and relatives) automatically assumed we didn't get him vaccinated because he was homeschooled. To which we both responded, "Are you nuts? Of course he's vaccinated." There was one mom in the group of homeschool moms that was the epitome of the "crazy homeschool mom" and she eventually moved away because people stopped inviting her and her kids to birthday parties, etc.

But it shows that it doesn't matter if it's secular or non-secular with the homeschooling, there are nuts in both. Our group was secular, and very science-based. We had a few people drift in every now and then but if they were looking for a religious-based homeschool group they pretty quickly moved back out again.
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Jessica Biel comes out as an anti-vax activist, joining RFK Jr. to lobby against the California vaccination bill:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/jessica-bi...itter_page

Quote:Tuesday, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., an environmental activist whose recent work has focused increasingly on baseless allegations that vaccines are unsafe and can injure a statistically miniscule population of “medically fragile” children, appeared at the California State Assembly beside an unlikely scene partner: actress Jessica Biel. In a series of Instagram posts, first reported in Jezebel by Anna Merlan, the two posed with activists, legislators, and miscellaneous bureaucratic architecture. In the caption, Kennedy called Biel “courageous.” 

The duo had come to lobby against SB 276, a California state bill that would limit medical exemptions from vaccinations without approval from a state public health officer. The bill has been decried by anti-vaxx advocates like Kennedy and vaguely critiqued by current Governor Gavin Newsom, over official estimations that it would reduce medical exemptions by nearly 40%. 
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These are some truly stupid people.
Originally Posted by ImmortanNick 

Saw Batman v Superman.
Now I know what it's like to see Nickelback in concert.

That's my review.
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I have nothing but contempt for people who have the time and money to educate themselves, yet continue to live in a bubble of narcissistic ignorance.

As politics keeps proving, there's nothing more dangerous than the dumb person who thinks they're smart.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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A Democratic megadonor is, um, sorry about funding an anti-vax group; blames his estranged wife for the involvement:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dem-megado...nvolvement

Quote:A Democratic mega donor has pulled the plug on an anti-vaccine group founded and funded by his family, telling the Daily Beast that he regrets his involvement.

Real estate developer Albert Dwoskin said that he cut funding from the Children's Medical Safety Research Institute long before the current measles outbreak heightened interest in vaccination policy.  The group closed at the end of 2018 after he and his wife, Claire, began divorce proceedings. 

CMSRI had been known for circulating anti-vaxx misinformation including debunked connections between autism and vaccines. The organization, which was founded by Claire Dwoskin, was largely funded by the family’s foundation which spent hundreds of thousands of dollars supporting its mission of conducting “research on a range of issues from the toxic potential of various vaccine ingredients to the expression of human diseases.” 

But that, Albert Dwoskin said, has come to an end. 

“After seeing a great deal of evidence, I have concluded that concerns about the safety of vaccination are unfounded,” he said in a statement to The Daily Beast. “The best way to protect children is to make sure they have all their vaccinations as recommended by scientists, doctors and other healthcare professionals.”

“The CMSRI, founded by my estranged wife, has been closed. I regret my participation in the CMSRI’s work and disagree with her views on the dangers of vaccination,” he added. “My foundation no longer supports work on this issue.”

A spokesperson for Claire Dwoskin confirmed the non-profit had closed, but disputed her estranged husband’s assertion that she was the sole driver of the issue. 

“Divorce has a way of rewriting history,” said Kellie Boyle, Dwoskin’s spokesperson. “Al was always supportive, it was a joint passion and interest. He’s a data driven business man, that was the basis of his funding vaccine research.” 

While CMSRI was shuttered last year, the group’s Twitter feed and Facebook page were active as of mid-May, retweeting articles and posts with misleading and incorrect information about vaccines. 

The family has also been a prolific political donor as well, giving to several top ranking Democrats and Democratic committees and regularly hosting the who’s who the party’s political elite for fundraisers at their McLean, Virginia estate. 
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This is... a read.

https://jezebel.com/everything-i-learned...1834992879

Quote:I encountered many of the same fringe characters and claims I’ve seen at other conspiratorially-inclined conferences around the country.

These include Andrew Wakefield, the one-time gastroenterologist who was the lead author on a now-retracted study suggesting a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. Wakefield’s license to practice has been revoked and his name is mud in mainstream medicine, but he’s a yearly speaker at AutismOne. Mark Geier was there too, another former doctor whose license to practice was suspended or revoked in every state where he’d been certified after he and his son David—who is not a doctor— began treating children with autism with Lupron, a drug used for chemical castration in sex offenders. Kerri Rivera, a woman who infamously promoted the claim that autism-causing parasites can be defeated using an industrial bleach product called “Miracle Mineral Solution,” or MMS, stayed away this year; since 2015, following an investigation by the state attorney general, she has agreed not to promote MMS in Illinois. One person, the osteopathic physician and anti-vaccine celebrity speaker Sherri Tenpenny, delivered a speech I’d heard almost word for word years before, while floating through Mexico on a cruise for conspiracy theorists.

But Kennedy went a step further too, arguing that vaccines are merely the first step in the pharmaceutical industry’s lifelong grip on the lives and health of children.

“The industry makes $550 million a year selling EpiPens, Adderall, albuterol, diabetes medication, anti-seizure—80 percent of the profits come from chronic diseases,” he said. “And you’ll find all those diseases listed where?”

“Vaccine inserts!” the crowd roared back in unison. (The anti-vaccine movement frequently misinterprets the package inserts on vaccines and other drugs as an admission that those drugs inevitably cause adverse reactions and serious diseases.)

Kennedy nodded back at them. “There’s a good argument,” he added, “that every kid is injured.”

Within this framework, the presence of QAnon celebrities who spoke on a panel moderated by Candyce Estave, AutismOne’s director of online communications, was both bizarre and unsurprising.

Anti-Vaxxers are a cult. Maybe the most dangerous one we've ever seen.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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I have a headache:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/1...ts-1500976

Quote:A chorus of mostly white women sang the gospel song “We Shall Overcome” in the California State Capitol, an anthem of the civil rights movement. Mothers rallied outside the governor's office and marched through Capitol corridors chanting “No segregation, no discrimination, yes on education for all!" Some wore T-shirts that read “Freedom Keepers."

But this wasn't about racial equality. In the nation's most diverse state, protesters opposed to childhood vaccine mandates — many from affluent coastal areas — had co-opted the civil rights mantle from the 1960s, insisting that their plight is comparable to what African Americans have suffered from segregationist policies.

The approach reflected the level of desperation among families staunchly opposed to vaccinating their children — a desperation that peaked Friday night when an activist threw a menstrual cup with what appeared to be blood at several state senators during floor session.

But the civil rights claim shocked lawmakers, especially those representing minority communities that have suffered generations of racism and economic injustice. Assemblywoman Sydney Kamlager-Dove (D-Los Angeles) called it "borderline racist" and said vaccine protesters need to revisit their history books.

And:

Quote:Gov. Gavin Newsom gave the anti-vaccine movement a brief window of hope in the penultimate week of legislative session when he demanded late amendments to the main medical exemption crackdown bill, Senate Bill 276. But the governor ultimately signed two measures to implement the law, adding fuel to the anger of the anti-vaccine movement. Protests continued for four days after Newsom signed the bills, with rhetoric growing ever more extreme.

Activists had earlier rolled out a sign during bill hearings that said “Welcome to Calabama, y’all” — a reference comparing Newsom, a liberal Democrat, to the late Alabama Gov. George Wallace, who was infamous for his defiance of racial desegregation. After the bills were approved, some held signs stating, "Welcome to Nazifornia," complete with the Nazi symbol.
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When are these assholes all going to croak from the mumps?
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They love this stuff lately.

Here's an Anti-vaxxer Nuremburg speech apropriating Jewish oppression, hilariously enough.



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"We, like all oppressed peoples before us, will fight to the death for our right to die from easily preventable diseases!"

"YEAH!"

"And to take people with compromised immune systems with us!"

"YEAH!"

"And to be the stupidest people in human history!"

"YEAH! Wait, who said that?"
Gamertag: Tweakee
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