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Pope Francis: Totally Cool and With the Times
#1
AI'm not religious anything but I really like Pope Francis! He's awesome! Wow when he was selected I felt giant feeling of meh, but the stances he's taken up have been just earth shattering. He says that atheists and people with different religious beliefs could go to heaven, he's been far more approachable to the public than any in recent history, and now it seems like he's even okay with homosexuality.

Wow I'm so floored by him. He's suppose to be a stodgy religious leader stuck in an antiquated time and yet he's more progressive than our political leaders in this country and certainly more than the clerics in the Middle East (okay maybe not all but most definitely) So I'm very happy he got selected he has been awesome so far. Certainly better than Benedict's whole tenure as pope.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3669635/
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#2

Well, him being a Jesuit (one of the most open minded and radical orders, yet extreme papal loyalists) and living through most of Argentina's worst moments make him quite a character; this is a man who had no problems defending members of his order and the clergy that openly opposed and participated in activities that were sanctioned by the Military Junta (like advocating and supporting work by clergy in the shantytowns), yet he is pretty much the second worst enemy of Argentina's populist current government (journalist Jorge La Nata being #1), who he denounces as corrupt and manipulating of the people's interests and rights.

Its been theorized by many political and religious analysts that this background and him being a Jesuit are clear indicators that he was elected in order to be a reformist pope in order to undo the damage made by Benedict's conservative administration, and so far he has shown to be in that line.

So while I dont think he will reach the charisma and popularity of JP II, he certainly has no intention of being a popular pope, but rather one that helps the church modernize and leave behind many extreme and outdated views that need to be eliminated or changed.

So yeah, i like the guy, and so far he's shown to be a great choice.

Also, as a Jesuit, he has brought their austerity and soldier like way of living to the Papacy, which has done wonders for it; he has discarded all luxury and ostentation that come with the role, and he has refused to obey any security measures that make him seem away or apart from the crowds, something mindbending in the current political climate.

You better believe most countries security and information agencies worldwide went bugnuts when he was announced as Pope; he is clearly going to be an impredictable key factor in global politics.

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#3

He also called it a sin in the same breath, and worked with murderous regime, as Ryoken states.

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#4
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaisMagic View Post

I'm not religious anything but I really like Pope Francis! He's awesome! Wow when he was selected I felt giant feeling of meh, but the stances he's taken up have been just earth shattering. He says that atheists and people with different religious beliefs could go to heaven, he's been far more approachable to the public than any in recent history, and now it seems like he's even okay with homosexuality.

Wow I'm so floored by him. He's suppose to be a stodgy religious leader stuck in an antiquated time and yet he's more progressive than our political leaders in this country and certainly more than the clerics in the Middle East (okay maybe not all but most definitely) So I'm very happy he got selected he has been awesome so far. Certainly better than Benedict's whole tenure as pope.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3669635/


Could Francis finally be lightening up?

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#5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

He also called it a sin in the same breath, and worked with murderous regime, as Ryoken states.


No, I didnt said that. I said he pretty much kept the church from working with the Junta, and at the same time supported priests and jesuits who, against the Junta's orders, kept doing charity work and preaching in the shanty towns, even helping protect people from prosecution.

His only work with the Junta, as you say, was when he secured the release and escape from the country of left wing jesuits priests that were incarcerated by the military, and its still not really know  how that went down.

Also, while the church posture hasnt changed, he has personally stated he does not discriminate or see that gays should be banned from the faith; Christianity is all about the cleansing of sin and embracing the sinner, and that was the point he was making; even if sodomy is a sin according to the old Testament, Christ's teachings are of sins being forgiving and that judgement of a person is only something God, who forgives and forgets, can do; Francis essentially managed to handle the question gracefully and in order with Christ's teachings.

Also, he was in favor of supporting the gay marriage act in Argentina, but had no to little support from the clergy, as he advocated it as a compromise and in accord with Christian teachings.

So far, the only Christian "controversial" view he has is that he is against abortion, but yet he supports sexual education and contraception methods that prevent conception, which is pretty radical in the church.

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#6

I understand that the new Pope will soon issue a Papal Bull mandating every Catholic Church to install the Panasonic ZT60...that should get Dr. Harford on board!

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#7
ANothing against the Pope, I just wish all these pilgrims would leave my town now that the event is over!



(I am being facetious, fwiw)
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#8
AIt's going to be funny seeing how dedicated Catholics reconcile this turnabout with "papal infallibility."
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#9

Papal Infallibility is widely misunderstood. It does NOT mean that anything the Pope says is Gospel. It means when the Pope speaks about core (emphasis on the word core) tenants of the Bible he is infallible.


Thus if the Pope talks about Jesus dying for the world's Sins he's infallible. If the Pope says Man of Steel is a great movie, not infallible.

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#10
A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/148647/pope-francis-totally-cool-and-with-the-times#post_3554900"]
If the Pope says Man of Steel is a great movie, not infallible.
[/quote]

Blasphemy!
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#11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

Thus if the Pope talks about Jesus dying for the world's Sins he's infallible. If the Pope says Man of Steel is a great movie, not infallible.

What if he says that Man of Steel died at the boxoffice for the sins of man?  Smile

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#12

Yeah, Infallibility has to be specifically invoked, on matters of core doctrine, to apply.  Popes don't do it much anymore because lectures about the nature of existence from a man in a dress and funny hat look tend to feel foolish in hindsight.

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#13
A[quote name="Cylon Baby" url="/community/t/148647/pope-francis-totally-cool-and-with-the-times#post_3554900"]Papal Infallibility is widely misunderstood. It does NOT mean that anything the Pope says is Gospel. It means when the Pope speaks about core (emphasis on the word core) tenants of the Bible he is infallible.


Thus if the Pope talks about Jesus dying for the world's Sins he's infallible. If the Pope says Man of Steel is a great movie, not infallible.[/quote]
Yes - but the idea that salvation is possible for those who don't accept Christ (or, to relate back to Pope Creepy Old Neighbor Guy XVI, for those not in the flock of the Roman Catholic church) is a pretty fuckin' core-belief issue.
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#14
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post


Yes - but the idea that salvation is possible for those who don't accept Christ (or, to relate back to Pope Creepy Old Neighbor Guy XVI, for those not in the flock of the Roman Catholic church) is a pretty fuckin' core-belief issue.


I was educated in a Catholic School that was sponsored by the Benedictine Order, and the whole "Salvation is for everyone" was pretty much a core belief; hell, christian belief downright states that there are non christian figures in heaven and that Jesus was a Jew; not to mention that Christianity as a whole is diverse as fuck when it comes to races and nationalities; just like Islam, there are extremists who refuse to get on with the times, but a lot of Christian orders and figures believe that Jesus's message of salvation was for everyone, specially the pariahs, persecuted and rejected by society.

Granted this is a modern interpretation, but the belief that salvation and god's love is for everyone is pretty well developed and extended in Modern Christianity.

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#15
ADepends strongly on who you ask. Scripture is clear that Christ came to bring salvation to the entire human race (after all, God made that promise way the hell before there were any divisions of race, nation, or religion,) but Paul outright says in Romans 10 that people have to knowingly accept Christ in order to be saved, and have to be told about him in order to do that, hence why missionary work is so important.

Are there people who hold with what you were taught? Sure are. But it's not an uncontroversial idea.
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#16
ASo I'm pretty much going to heaven anyway even if I don't believe in it?

A life of atheism... wasted!
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#17

Going back to the thread's main topic, from what I read today, the Pope said that gays are cool/he has no problem with them, but then said no way to female priests? Or am I missing something here?

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#18
A[quote name="Bradito" url="/community/t/148647/pope-francis-totally-cool-and-with-the-times#post_3554962"]So I'm pretty much going to heaven anyway even if I don't believe in it?

A life of atheism... wasted![/quote]
Ha ha, joke's on you, buddy!

It's like the inverse of Pascal's wager...
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#19
Quote:
Originally Posted by donde View Post

Going back to the thread's main topic, from what I read today, the Pope said that gays are cool/he has no problem with them, but then said no way to female priests? Or am I missing something here?

It seems like he's saying that the Church "closed the door on women" after several discussions, but he wasn't quite forthcoming on his own views.

The man really knows tact. And diplomacy. Unfortunately, that's not what's needed here.

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#20
ABetween this latest statement and the recent offer of indulgences to people who follow him on Twitter, I'm guessing that this is the Pope's way of trying to get the minors he meets online to trust him.
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#21

Quote:

Originally Posted by donde View Post

Going back to the thread's main topic, from what I read today, the Pope said that gays are cool/he has no problem with them, but then said no way to female priests? Or am I missing something here?


You can't have a sausage party with clams on the menu. Duh.

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#22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

So I'm pretty much going to heaven anyway even if I don't believe in it?

A life of atheism... wasted!


Not really, you can hang out with Sagan and Asimov and argue for all eternity about how its all dream or a separate plane of existence that is ruled by another whole set of physics.

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#23

To clarify, I doubt the Pope is "okay" with homosexuality.  He's fine with gay clergy insofar as they don't act on their "tendencies".  Of course, since the Catholic Church is not okay with gay marriage (nor, by the way, is the Pope), gays who wish to remain in God's good graces must remain celibate for the entirety of their lives, suppressing their identities so that they never act sinfully.  "Love the sinner, hate the sin" isn't acceptance in this case; it's an insult.  It still carries the implication that there's something wrong with being gay.

Quote:
Also, he was in favor of supporting the gay marriage act in Argentina

Are you sure about that?  He wrote this when Argentina was considering gay marriage back in 2010:

Quote:

“In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family," then-Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio wrote, according to a July 8, 2010 article in the National Catholic Register.

"At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children," said Cardinal Bergoglio. "At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

“Let us not be naive: This is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan," said the future pope. "It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

“[T]oday the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it needs this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will," the cardinal sai

Compared to his predecessor, is he a little more progressive?  Sure.  But he's not diverging from Catholic teachings that strongly here.  While he may preach about respecting gays, his harsh language about gay adoption and marriage strike me as hostile and misguided, antiquated views from a time long past.  People falling over themselves and acting like he's going to be significantly more friendly to the gay community are absolutely not using their common sense.

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#24

As far as I know it, his stance on homosexual marriage is based on oposition to gay adoption, which does clash with the Bible and Church's view of Family as a godly gift to man and woman; however, he is against any form of prosecution or seclusion of gay people and the faith, and i think thats what he meant by his words in the interview.

I've actually meet many priests and christians who support gay marriage and sometimes are gay, but also support the Bible's view of marriage, in terms of family as being a Man/woman deal.

So yes, Francis is not all that progressive, but from his jesuit and political background, he's nothing short of a revolution for the church as an institution.

So yeah, smalls steps, but those eventually lead to big changes. eventually.

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#25

So, is Pope Francis just trolling the non-believers? : )


Quote:



On Sunday, Pope Francis discarded his prepared remarks for Mass after speaking with an unemployed father-of-three who, according to Reuters, told him that unemployment “oppresses you and wears you out to the depths of your soul.”


The pope improvised on this theme for over twenty minutes, saying “I find suffering here … It weakens you and robs you of hope. Excuse me if I use strong words, but where there is no work there is no dignity.”


“We don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm,” he reportedly continued. “Men and women have to be at the center [of economic systems] as God wants, not money.”



“The world has become an idolator of this god called money.”


<cont>




It's also pretty damn amusing how he is pissing off all the evangelicals and conservative politicians...



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#26
AI just think it's odd we're calling this guy "with the times' when he's literally the head of an organization that promotes belief in magic, faeries, angels and all that stuff. It's the very definition of anti science.
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#27
A"Has become?" Thought we'd been there for a good few thousand years already, myself...
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#28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

I just think it's odd we're calling this guy "with the times' when he's literally the head of an organization that promotes belief in magic, faeries, angels and all that stuff. It's the very definition of anti science.


Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

"Has become?" Thought we'd been there for a good few thousand years already, myself...


All true, but to have the Pope vocalize it....that's some pretty radical shit for the the catholic church.



Don't get me wrong, they/he still have a looooooong way to go to get their shit together and join the 21st century.

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#29
AIt does warm my heart to read about conservatives being disturbed by him.
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#30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post

I just think it's odd we're calling this guy "with the times' when he's literally the head of an organization that promotes belief in magic, faeries, angels and all that stuff. It's the very definition of anti science.


Now, I will admit that I don't go to Church as often as my late grandmother would have wanted, but I'm preeeeety sure that the Catholic religion doesn't involve fairies. I'd certainly love to hear a sermon about how Tinkerbell fed the starving using magic dust and the power of GOD, but I have a feeling that Father O'Neill won't be giving that one anytime soon. Miracles and magic are also quite different, but I get the point you're making.

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#31
Quote:

 Miracles and magic are also quite different, but I get the point you're making.

No. Really, for Darwin's sake, no. Miracles and magic are quite different? In what Christing sense?



A miracle is an instance of the impossible. Likewise magic. Neither one, actually, exists. They do not occur. They are imaginary. Like Harry Potter.



I guess the only difference is that a miracle is not invoked by a particular human agency, it just kinda happens... because God.



...unless it's by the agency of Miracle Max... You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles...

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#32
AThey're different from a Christian viewpoint because Christian doctrine makes a distinction between them, which was MrSaxon's larger point. You can argue about a lack of factual basis until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that, from the viewpoint of Catholicism, lumping angels and miracles in with fairies and Harry Potter is bullshit.
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#33
A[quote name="commodorejohn" url="/community/t/148647/pope-francis-totally-cool-and-with-the-times/30#post_3587737"]They're different from a Christian viewpoint because Christian doctrine makes a distinction between them, which was MrSaxon's larger point. You can argue about a lack of factual basis until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that, from the viewpoint of Catholicism, lumping angels and miracles in with fairies and Harry Potter is bullshit.[/quote]

OK... but sooner or later, REALITY has to be injected into the conversation, yes? So it's completely appropriate for rational individuals to equate religious belief with magic/fiction/whathaveyou.

We shouldn't have to arbitrarily dice up which types of fictions we can actually CALL FICTION just because there's a group who thinks they're real. We don't agree to imply we might not have landed on the moon just because some crazies choose to believe it. Because,you know, objective reality doesn't actually care what people believe. It's stubborn like that.
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#34
AYou don't have to agree to imply anything, no, but at the same time, discussing, say, Star Trek in the terms of the cosmology of The Lord of the Rings is of limited value at best.

(Though: Q: Maiar, Valar, or Bombadil-esque enigma?)
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#35

Call metahumans and mutants the same thing and I will issue a fatwa on your head

They're different universes, you guys!

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