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Misogyny and the discrimination and abuse of women in the US and around the world
#1
A

I listened to the amazing former President Carter on the Diane Rehm show this morning.  He has written a new book about the world's failure to accord equality, respect and basic dignity to women.  Obviously, this human phenomenon runs the gamut from everyday misogyny to the fact that one in four college age women will be raped yet an extremely low percentage ever report it to the great income disparity between the sexes and the ubiquity and blind-eye-turning to spousal abuse in our own culture to the horrors of oppression and prevalence of the barbaric and disgusting genital mutilation abroad, etc.

Aside from basic decency, fairness and the value of all human life, the treatment of women and girls is a proven indicator and facilitator of progress, enlightenment, peace, education, even economic development.

Strong recommend!

Quote:

President Jimmy Carter, our 39th president, has set a high bar for post-presidential accomplishments: He’s written more than 24 books, been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and continues to work to solve problems around the world.In recent years, he says he’s "become convinced that the most serious and unaddressed worldwide challenge is the deprivation and abuse of women and girls." It's a problem that he says is connected to the misinterpretation of selected religious texts and a general acceptance of violence and warfare. Join Diane for a conversation with President Jimmy Carter on his call to action for women and girls.

Listen at the WAMU website...

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#2

It really is an important issue that should be discussed more.  Studies have shown that the main factor in controlling population growth, is education of young females.  Humanities growing numbers present the biggest threat to the quality of life on the planet.  More educated women leads to a better future of everyone.

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#3

Former POTUS Carter was on Colbert last night.



Unfortunately, the Colbert website seems to be borked right now....


Here's an alternate.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/26/ji...ate-women/




It should be noted that one of the main driving forces when it comes to misogyny is fundamentalist religion.

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#4

We'll never have gender equality when so many of the world's religions actively force females to take on a subservient role.  It's pathetic.

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#5

We have to get beyond the male/female dichotomy...it's as outdated as parachute pants.  There are smart people and dumb people and they should be judged on those merits alone...not gender or skin color.

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#6

I have no idea why this is still a issue


Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 

We'll never have gender equality when so many of the world's religions actively force females to take on a subservient role.  It's pathetic.



Bingo!



Besides that I have no idea why this is still a issue in 2014?

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#7
Quote:

Originally Posted by yt View Post
 

 this human phenomenon runs the gamut from everyday misogyny to the fact that one in four college age women will be raped yet an extremely low percentage ever report it




I read this sentence three times to ensure I hadn't misread it. That's an absolutely appalling statistic.

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#8
AToo appalling. I don't normally question numbers, but that has to be inflated.

Carter rocked on Colbert last night.
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#9

It's true, and it mostly goes unreported and the rapists walk through the raindrops.  Those and more ugly stats here.  What Pres. Carter talked about was how young women are disinclined to report rape anyway because of all of the glorious slut-shaming and victim-blaming that goes on in this country (my words, not his) but that the colleges actually discourage victims further because they don't want the bad publicity.



He obviously also talks about the role various religious leaders and organizations play in promoting misogyny and discrimination against women, saying how the Koran and Jesus both are reverent towards women and treat them as equals, but that (as with everything having to do with these texts) people cherry-pick only those verses that support their gross agenda.  I do recommend listening to the interview on WAMU and I may pick up his book and add it to the pile.

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#10

My friend lives across the street from a fairly conservative college.  I went to hang out with him and we walked his dog at the college...he told me a girl he used to date went there, and that she was tied to a bed post and raped, and then left there, and that it was a source of her trauma that she played out in their relationship.  I couldn't believe it.  I even dated a girl who had PTSD from childhood and adult rape incidents.  Crazy.

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#11

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#12

/\


This video above makes for an interesting psychological/sociological litmus test....



I posted it on another forum I frequent and, like clockwork, some of the members there didn't see any problems with the actions/vocalizations sent Roberts' way.



Now I realize that this is not actually scientific but I can't help but see a correlation....the individuals that didn't see any problems with the actions of the men in that video tend to be some of the more outspoken conservative members. Many (most?) have been the ones calling for mandatory ebola quarantines as well.



Make of this what you will...

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#13

There's nothing wrong with a quick, polite "Good morning" as you pass someone on the street, especially if you happen to make eye contact.  And if you're just reading the subtitles, some of those comments do seem pretty harmless.  But you have to also take into account the body language and tone of the speaker, and most of those guys weren't interested in how good a morning she was having.  And you have to take into account her demeanor.  Her mere existence isn't an invitation to start talking to her.

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#14
AThere's nothing wrong with someone catching your eye, there's nothing wrong with trying chat up someone if you find them attractive (if there's a decent window and you're not encroaching on them), but that is some creepy shit. How the hell do you stalk alongside someone like that and somehow think that sort of thing is okay?

Everyone, male / female, gay / straight, is programmed to steal a look or two - everyone eyefucks to some degree or another - it's a natural thing, but Christ. The compression of those hours is pretty effective and gross.
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#15
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
 

There's nothing wrong with a quick, polite "Good morning" as you pass someone on the street, especially if you happen to make eye contact.  And if you're just reading the subtitles, some of those comments do seem pretty harmless.  But you have to also take into account the body language and tone of the speaker, and most of those guys weren't interested in how good a morning she was having.  And you have to take into account her demeanor.  Her mere existence isn't an invitation to start talking to her.



I think none of the interactions in that video (maybe 1 is arguable) could be considered innocent polite "good morning" type of exchanges.



I'm appalled at the online reaction to this video, shouldn't be a surprise, but when I had to argue with women on twitter how this is wrong, you can't help but get a bit depressed.

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#16

This is something that definitely sprung to mind... but I was reluctant to bring it up in other discussions of the video because I didn't want it to get derailed anymore than such discussions always do anyway.



http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201...d_out.html

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#17
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

This is something that definitely sprung to mind... but I was reluctant to bring it up in other discussions of the video because I didn't want it to get derailed anymore than such discussions always do anyway.



http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/201...d_out.html


I knew that was coming.

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#18
AYeah, when I noticed the make-up of the men and saw the disclaimer, I figured it was only a matter of time. It's not unfair to question whether the narrative was manipulated, but it doesn't immediately need to be an insidious editing job.
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#19
Quote:

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Yeah, when I noticed the make-up of the men and saw the disclaimer, I figured it was only a matter of time. Need it be an insidious editing job?

Doesn't need to be but this can't be discussed otherwise.

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#20

Is it possible that the intensity/frequency of catcalling is culturally based?



I don't know the answer, but I know in Latin America the situation is horrible. I got a tour of the equivalent of "congress" in Panama, by a member of the diplomatic corps, and she was harassed while giving us the tour by co-workers at least 2-3 times. It was to the point that one guy was trying to setup a date with her that night, I had to stop the tour and ask her if she was OK, and all she told me was that she was used to it and couldn't complain to her bosses about it.

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#21
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
 

Is it possible that the intensity/frequency of catcalling is culturally based?


No

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#22

For the sake of 'clarity', it's understandable to edit out the 'less brazen' instances of catcalling and wolf-whistling.  But it does have the potential to give certain groups an 'out' by giving them an opportunity to derail from the legit point the video makes.



So it doesn't even need to be an insidious editing job for it to be a problem in the dialogue it causes.  It makes it easier to generalize this as a black and Latino problem more than a problem with men in general.

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#23
Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

No



Not sure, I can't really tell to be honest. I get the feeling this is worst in big cities, and when I lived in one was in Latin America, where the standards for sexual harassment are much lower than here ... that's just a fact. (ex: In Colombia they still send out resumes with pictures, making it easy to discriminate against women based on looks)

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#24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
 


(ex: In Colombia they still send out resumes with pictures, making it easy to discriminate against women based on looks)


Korea is the same way.



A very normalized culture of plastic surgery there...



There is a part of my mind combatting that urge to think as ElCapitan does: that certain cultures are more inclined to indulge in this behavior.  But I think it's really more of an issue of how casually brazen that behavior is delivered in media.  And I'm certainly not immune to being affected by that over a lifetime of consuming said media.



It makes me think that everyone else who isn't black or Latino men are simply more subtle/sneaky/passive-aggressive about it.  Doesn't make it any worse or better.  It just makes it less likely for it to be included in a video pointing out that behavior.



Then there's the fact that I saw this behavior play out in real life as I worked a counter at a convenience store.  And unfortunately, my own confirmation biases at the time certainly played a part in seeing that behavior play out a lot like representation of that video.

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#25
A[quote name="ElCapitanAmerica" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world#post_3795872"]Is it possible that the intensity/frequency of catcalling is culturally based?

I don't know the answer, but I know in Latin America the situation is horrible. I got a tour of the equivalent of "congress" in Panama, by a member of the diplomatic corps, and she was harassed while giving us the tour by co-workers at least 2-3 times. It was to the point that one guy was trying to setup a date with her that night, I had to stop the tour and ask her if she was OK, and all she told me was that she was used to it and couldn't complain to her bosses about it.
[/quote]

Depends on what one means by "culture". It's more subcultural and not anything to do with race. You put any three guys in a certain environment and they'll probably come out three different ways depending on how they allow said environment to inform them. I have three brothers, all of whom are straight and into sports and drinking and music I do not personally listen to. Yet, they are all profoundly different in temperament and treat women differently from one another.* Also, none of them approach women in as tacky a fashion as seen in the video.




*We all grew up under an emotionally and physically abusive father and wear those scars differently, some of us better than the other.
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#26
A[quote name="Jmurdoch" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world#post_3690745"]It really is an important issue that should be discussed more. Studies have shown that the main factor in controlling population growth, is education of young females. Humanities growing numbers present the biggest threat to the quality of life on the planet. More educated women leads to a better future of everyone.
[/quote]


[quote name="Judas Booth" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world#post_3690757"]We'll never have gender equality when so many of the world's religions actively force females to take on a subservient role. It's pathetic.
[/quote]


I've learned the hard way to just clam up and listen in most forums where this comes up, precisely because I have the same unashamedly hostile attitude toward organized religion. The first wave of suffragists were women who correctly pointed out the historical role that religious authorities had played in the subjugation of women, my own feminism is inextricably linked with my atheism, but phrase it the wrong way and you have women who claim to be intersectional feminists shouting you down with cries of "Islamophobe."


ETA: Not to make this about my feelings. My point has more to do with tactics, inclusiveness, and the fact that women's rights have been on the defensive in the US for years, while the gay rights movement has made astonishing progress, despite what should be a vast difference in movement size in favor of feminism. I think that's because the gay rights movement never got comfortable enough to turn on its own and start telling people they couldn't be allies.
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#27

From the age of about 15 until late-thirties/early-forties, women are basically treated like produce, and while some women do think of it as "nice," I can attest having lived through it that it's a kind of prison.  It definitely crosses racial and cultural borders, but like Nooj says, the brazen street commentary is a cakewalk compared to the much more subtle or insidious forms of this kind of harassment, especially in an institutional or work environment.  I think it's great when witnesses hold out a hand because it's even tougher when you're young and on your own.   Luckily (at least for me), after a certain age you literally become invisible.  It was really only when I got older that I realized how much of an effect being under constant siege can have on your life and how freeing it is when it stops.



ps. I'm glad that slate article linked to Jessica Williams's piece on this from The Daily Show.  It's hilarious and perfect, but  in not being as in-your-face as this video, it didn't get the same attention -- which I hope it starts to get now.

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#28

: )


Quote:

Street Harasser Haunted By Woman Who Got Away With Dignity Intact



CHICAGO—Regretting his failure to take advantage of the perfect opportunity, local street harasser Jason Foster told reporters Wednesday that he continues to be haunted by the woman who got away with her dignity intact. “I will go the rest of my life wondering if I could have made this woman feel completely demeaned, if maybe there was something else sexually degrading I could have shouted,” said a visibly emotional Foster, reportedly agonizing about the moment that morning when he did not make more of an effort to intimidate the woman by leering at her body or following closely behind her down the street. “It’s eating me up inside that I didn’t trust my gut instinct to go after her and continue making obscene remarks and unwelcome sexual advances. I truly believe she’s the one I could have totally humiliated by yelling ‘nice ass, baby doll’ one more time.” At press time, sources confirmed that an elated Foster had successfully robbed the woman of her dignity while she was returning home from work.

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#29
Quote:

Originally Posted by yt View Post
 

From the age of about 15 until late-thirties/early-forties, women are basically treated like produce, and while some women do think of it as "nice," I can attest having lived through it that it's a kind of prison.



Oddly enough I can appreciate what this feels like.  When I was in my early 20s I had long hair.  I'm quite short and, at the time, was quite slight of build.



I was walking home from a party one night, around 1am, in Edinburgh.  This guy who was walking towards me kept moving so that he was walking right at me (this was from about 100m away).  I moved to the right, he moved to his left.  This kept happening right up until he was almost in my face.  "Alright darlin'... HOLY FUCK IT'S A GUY" and he quickly scarpered.



It was appalling.  And all I could think was "but what if I wasn't?"



It's absolutely beyond appalling that one wouldn't be able to simply walk down the street without being harassed in any way shape or form, regardless of gender, race or any such shite.

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#30

What clinches it for me is, the expression on the woman's face is not in any way inviting of anything, certainly not inviting of amorous attentions.



In San Francisco I've experienced what I call "the SF Stare". It's when I'm walking down the street, feel someone looking at me, spy out a woman staring at me, she sees me, then quickly looks away like I've committed an assault. It's annoying and disturbing. The one thing it does not do is make me want to engage with her in any way.

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#31
A[quote name="ElCapitanAmerica" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world#post_3795872"]Is it possible that the intensity/frequency of catcalling is culturally based?
[/quote]

Rejected alternate title for that video: Black guys with no game
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#32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post
 


Oddly enough I can appreciate what this feels like.  When I was in my early 20s I had long hair.  I'm quite short and, at the time, was quite slight of build.



I was walking home from a party one night, around 1am, in Edinburgh.  This guy who was walking towards me kept moving so that he was walking right at me (this was from about 100m away).  I moved to the right, he moved to his left.  This kept happening right up until he was almost in my face.  "Alright darlin'... HOLY FUCK IT'S A GUY" and he quickly scarpered.



It was appalling.  And all I could think was "but what if I wasn't?"



It's absolutely beyond appalling that one wouldn't be able to simply walk down the street without being harassed in any way shape or form, regardless of gender, race or any such shite.



Andy, this is such an interesting story.  I've heard of straight guys getting hit on by gay guys (and the occasional accompanying homophobic panic), but this is the first time I've heard of a guy actually experiencing true male heterosexual aggression.  I think you completely get it in a way that I think is hard for men generally - through no lack of empathy or sensitivity - just because it's something they can go through life having never encountered directly.  It's like how white people have to gain awareness of the very different experience of being a person of color in this country because it's not something you're confronted with every day.


 

Meanwhile, I probably laughed a little too hard at this:  Funny Or Die's 10 Hours of Walking in NYC for a Man.

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#33

How I wish that I were surprised.....


Quote:

Rape threats target woman in viral anti-harassment video



A viral video intended to raise awareness about the rampant catcalls and sexual harassment faced by women and sexual minorities in the public sphere resulted in harassment and threats across a different medium: the Internet.



Earlier this week, the anti-street harassment advocacy group Hollaback posted a public service video online in which a young woman, wearing a plain T-shirt and jeans, received more than 100 shouts, comments about her body, invitations for dates or admonishments to “smile” while she walked around New York City for a day.



In just 24 hours on YouTube, the video had received more than 8.5 million hits and prompted newspapers and websites to publish think pieces about the cultural implications of unwelcome attention paid to women walking down the street.



By Wednesday, the woman at the center of the experiment — actress Shoshanna Roberts — had received the first of many rape threats in the video's comments section, according to Hollaback’s Twitter account, which urged users to report them so they could be removed from the site.



"The rape threats indicate that we are hitting a nerve," Hollaback director Emily May told Long Island newspaper Newsday.



The escalation of online responses from thoughtful to violent is part of a pattern that experts contend is an attempt to intimidate women into silence or inaction.



<cont>

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#34
Quote:

Originally Posted by yt View Post
 


Andy, this is such an interesting story.  I've heard of straight guys getting hit on by gay guys (and the occasional accompanying homophobic panic), but this is the first time I've heard of a guy actually experiencing true male heterosexual aggression.  I think you completely get it in a way that I think is hard for men generally - through no lack of empathy or sensitivity - just because it's something they can go through life having never encountered directly.  It's like how white people have to gain awareness of the very different experience of being a person of color in this country because it's not something you're confronted with every day.



Meanwhile, I probably laughed a little too hard at this:  Funny Or Die's 10 Hours of Walking in NYC for a Man.




I've been hit on by Gay men. It disturbs me in the sense that said men are creepy as hell. I also have friends who moved to SF from Kenya and it's been heartbreaking to see them change from very friendly, open people to closed and somewhat bitter people, specifically because of the daily experience of being Black in the US.

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#35

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014...-white-men

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