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Misogyny and the discrimination and abuse of women in the US and around the world
#36
Ahttp://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/31/catcalling_what_hollaback_s_viral_video_reveals_about_white_men_and_street.html
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#37
Quote:

Most distressing from the article:White men, on the other hand, have no use for that sort of catcalling. They marked their territory centuries ago.



Women are even getting hit on by guys that are centuries old. Fucking zombies are even harassing women. And white zombies of course. Rob would totally have never named his band that had he known.

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#38
A[IMG ALT=""]http://www.chud.com/community/content/type/61/id/195247/width/500/height/1000[/IMG]

Shirtgate. All of the real problems for women in the world and we're doing this? Really?
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#39
AI want to see that dude's closet.
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#40
AIsnt modern life wonderful
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#41
AIt's a tacky shirt. This guy, who is actually doing important and impressive work was shamed and driven to tears for wearing a tacky shirt. A shirt that, by the way, appears far less explicit than I'd heard described.

My irritation over this doesn't mean I empathize with the turds verbally attacking the women who brought up this nonsense, but it *is* utter nonsense. A kinetic, celestial object was successfully harpooned and this is what we want to talk about? Yeah...
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#42
AAh well. At least we're not talking about Kim Kardasian shitting into a bin bag, or whatever the hell that picture was supposed to be.
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#43

Why isn't PMR denouncing this???

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#44
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

Why isn't PMR denouncing this???


He should.

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#45
ANo, I'm with the social justice crowd this time. It's obvious women are such emotionally frail creatures, they'll see this single shirt and not want to go into science anymore. I mean, if you don't believe that, it's pretty clear you're a misogynist.
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#46

THAT's the way!

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#47

The problem with that phrase you hear quite a bit is it's not a matter of switching one ostensibly feminist issue for a more severe and 'real' one, but you can put anything there.


eg. All of the real problems for women in the world and we're... worried about  a shirt.  But also  ...watching game of thrones; ...keeping up with the Kardashians ..uploading pictures of what we're eating ...playing Candy Crush saga ..analysing box office taking data ...getting insider leaks about the new iPhone ...discussing that footballer who crosses himself or whatever ...micromanaging our investment portfolio ...buying goretex jackets we'll never actually need  etc etc.  Pick anything from the middle class litany.  Most things pale compared to 'real' issues.   Yet here we are.


But I'm not sure the bandwidth of concern has been calculated yet.  So a given bit of consternation in one area for a while doesn't clip off a whole bunch of "important" stuff by itself.

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#48
ANo, but this is rather specifically about a shirt that allegedly "exposes" sexism in a professional field (that exact thing has been suggested). Something like rape in GoT is different because of the overarching trend on the show to regularly cast its female characters as sex objects or expose them to sexual violence (a criticism that is basically impossible to deny of a trend that is worrisome). Would he have drawn the same criticism if it was Marilyn Monroe on the shirt? We constantly see her in images displayed in some fashion by both men and women (more women in recent years I think) and posited in the media as the "epitome of the feminine sex symbol", so I *suspect* this never would have become a thing in that alternate reality fashion choice simply by virtue of osmosis. Yet, because the shirt features a group of fictional, ostensibly faceless depictions of the idealized female form (as opposed to the inherent and superficial historicity of a Monroe figure), it becomes a conversation.

A reactionary would read that as "blah, blah, wimmens should just shut up!" but in my mind what I'm talking about cannot be any clearer. It's not the conversation so much as the variations that I believe would not have generated a conversation despite bearing no essential difference. I think I've complained often and virulently enough about pedantry in the past to evade any accusation that my opinions are gender-based.
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#49

No it's specifically about the notion that going on about this is somehow distracting from or blotting out concerns for other more serious matters and I don't think that's true.



People argue about this stuff I think largely for the reasons Batman takes up half this site's conversation sometimes (at the risk of derailing the conversation completely).  If something wholly good or well done comes along there's not a lot to say, especially if most people (who see it) like it. Batman is complicated and open to many interpretations, contradictory and mutually exclusive.


Likewise the semiotics of this shirt and the political divide surrounding such thoughts are much harder to figure out than whether women in the tribal areas of Pakistan have it bad and it should stop.  That's an easy one.  But less easy to alter one way or the other.


If you're disappointed by the apparent disparity there you're disappointed with modern life, full stop.  And that is a thoroughly reasonable position.




For the sake of it we can speculate what else might have been on the shirt until the cows come home.  Seems like what was on the shirt is the thing and the representation of women in comics is a touchier subject for many people.  Particularly for its habit of altering body forms into unrealistic shapes and poses (unlike Monroe).  Making a collage like that as well probably has certain implications for some too I wager.  Could read in some devaluing meaning to that I guess.


I don't know off hand.  It's mostly quirky and low brow to me.  People have said that if he was working in most offices he would have been warned off wearing it and I'd say that's true.  He said he was sorry if it bothered anyone so that's really that I think.

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#50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
 

Is it possible that the intensity/frequency of catcalling is culturally based?



I have a different opinion on this. This... isn't a simple question to answer. While I admit that the answer tends to slide towards racism, or anti-theism (like it has in this very thread - and anti-theism is considered just as politically incorrect as, if not more than, racism in several parts of the world), the fact still remains that the prevalence of gender-based discrimination is correlated with culture.



I think the distinction that we have to make here is this - no one section of the population is genetically predisposed towards sexism than another.



Cultural enablers for sexism, on the other hand, do exist, IMO.



Indeed, what is the difference between religion - that some of you so virulently oppose - and culture, really? Both endorse a common set of values, of expected behaviors from people in general; gender expectations, treatment of people along various sections of the social rung etc. are all a part and parcel of one's culture (just as you think they are a part of certain religions), right?



However, there is one crucial difference between religion and culture - the former is relatively rigid (though religion has changed over the years, especially in the more "moderate" spheres), while the latter is considered fluid and is subject to change (often drastic, in some cases). So, the key thing to remember, I suppose is that a culture can change, given time as well as internal and extraneous influences.



I'll take my own culture as an example - in Indian Hindu culture (and this is where the line between religion and culture gets really, really blurry), gender-based discrimination was once extremely prevalent. I'll cite a single horrendous practice - widow burning (sati) was a frequent occurrence. But the statistics have changed drastically in recent times and widow-burning is now considered a freak occurrence (there is still the problem of people revering the practice as a historical symbol of womanly chastity - but I believe that's being rooted out as well).



But the culture still is Indian Hindu culture - certain traditions and practices have changed drastically, but we still identify with the same cultural label.



That's a crucial point - cultural enablers may exist that support sexism (which probably means that certain cultures may show more support for sexist behaviors than others... or, to be more politically correct, certain cultures may not chastise sexist behavior as vehemently as certain other cultures), but they can be wiped out within the confines of that same culture. That is a crucial part of this conversation about culture and sexism, I think.

However, I don't think that means a person belonging to a certain cultural group or geographical region should feel innately inferior or something - like I said, cultures do change, and have changed over the years.

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#51

Dude Gets Stabbed After Telling Catcaller To Stop Bothering Girlfriend



I want to believe that we'd all stand up when we see injustice, but I know it's just not feasible. When asked why, I might point to this.

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#52
Ahttp://time.com/3589392/comet-shirt-storm/

Yes, I'm still thinking about this because it bugs me. This is not good for feminism and there is such a thing as bad feminism. I have no issue working through all of the bad ideas before getting to the good ones, but if we're going to talk about misogyny and discrimination, you have to work through what does or does not constitute those things.

Christ, I wish there was a stronger (genuine) female presence on this site.
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#53

Was this big outside of the little Jezebel-UK circle? I never heard about any of this until I actually read the TIME article. And that article has got a point, to be fair.

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#54

I think it's an absolutely fair point.



I've generally stayed out of discussions on this one because it so easily devolves into something unproductive, since it usually just lures in the most extremist views of both sides.

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#55
AI don't think it helps to stay out of it. I'd rather voice an opinion and have it taken in a way I didn't intend, then stay quiet and miss the opportunity to get someone to think of something in a way they maybe hadn't.

That said, yes, my initial concern was that this guy had his moment, a moment a decade in the making, stolen away from him by something so grossly trivial. That concern has since expanded and now it's about the voices who will lead the future of feminism and progressive thought.
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#56

I'll jump in when it seems like there's someone who doesn't seem to know a piece of info, but most such arguments I've seen of this online have been of people who have already made up their minds and are arguing not about the actual topic, but more against whoever is disagreeing (usually those that extrapolate this thing to be emblematic of everything wrong with the BIG PICTURE).

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#57
AI get that. I'm a privacy junkie, so my online presence is blissfully limited, and I don't think every thought that pops into my head needs a public outlet, but things like this are upsetting to me because it's coming from people whose politics are not wholly removed from my own.

I don't care to comment on every little thing that spews forth from the Beck's and Limbaugh's and Palin's of the world because they butter their toast with bullshit anyway, I'm far more impassioned about "minding the store". We've got some good stuff in that store, but it seems that the fried and candied, high calorie, heart attack shit is selling the most simply because it's the cheapest.
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#58
Motherfucker should have had some common sense though.
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#59
ATo mentally put aside a ten year long project to hitch a ride on a comet so that he might anticipate that he would be called a misogynist and receive death threats over a silly pin-up girl shirt his female friend made for him? This is not his fault. A cursory examination of Taylor's appearance should tell you that he's not a suit kind of guy. This wasn't a lapse in judgment or some gross statement against women that he wanted to make specifically for this occasion, he wore a shirt a buddy made for him. That's it.

He could have been wearing a shirt that said "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists" and I wouldn't do anything but scoff and say "Tacky fucker...but he did help harpoon a comet like some kind of Space Quint, so who gives a shit?"
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#60
AAnyhoo, I can only stress the same point so many times. This isn't really about him but about a chorus of voices that conflate an affront to personal taste, no matter how minor, as a call-to-arms. To say nothing of the inconsistencies often seen in these things.
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#61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

To mentally put aside a ten year long project to hitch a ride on a comet so that he might anticipate that he would be called a misogynist and receive death threats over a silly pin-up girl shirt his female friend made for him? This is not his fault. A cursory examination of Taylor's appearance should tell you that he's not a suit kind of guy.

But that's not really an excuse. Okay let me back up:



I agree with you. I agree that this isn't some sinister plot to keep down the womenzs down, that this only proves to be ammunition for people wishing to dismiss actual claims of misogyny; nor do I think that the guy is some drooling, sexist who wanted to show up the femi-nazis with his proud, loud, man-shirt (of manliness). So I agree with about 90% of that article.



Where I waver is blaming it entirely on the "feminist bullies" fault for taking the attention away from his accomplishments--that's kind of on him as well. He had to have been aware that he and the things that he'd be saying would be broadcasted to millions of people worldwide--and he consciously thought wearing that shirt was a good idea. I'm not morally outraged, I'm more amused by it if anything. I do think, however, that some common sense could have made this mess avoidable. I mean, someone had to have told him how stupid it looked, right?

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#62
AI imagine the people around him, who know the man more than someone "angrily" mashing away at an iPhone, were probably occupied with the issue at hand. Also, the people attacking him aren't "feminist bullies", they're pop-outrage idiots who have appropriated and deformed the language and goals of something that is actually worth supporting.
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#63

Well they got him to cry and and apologize for wearing a shirt that a woman made for him, thats pretty impressive really.

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#64
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I imagine the people around him, who know the man more than someone "angrily" mashing away at an iPhone, were probably occupied with the issue at hand. Also, the people attacking him aren't "feminist bullies", they're pop-outrage idiots who have appropriated and deformed the language and goals of something that is actually worth supporting.

But that's sort of my point: He's being broadcasted to people who have no idea who he is. This isn't some private event, or a couple of dudes hanging out in their backyard, this is a worldwide event because SCIENCE!



I just think he should have taken that into account.

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#65
AI've seen this equivalency made elsewhere and don't entirely agree with it, but you're saying it's his fault because of what he was wearing? Does that not sound uncomfortably familiar? What if this was Melissa instead of Matt and she was covered in tattoos and wearing a pinup girl shirt? You know for a fact that a certain group of people (Conservative prudes; let's call an asshole an asshole) would have had something to say and they'd be fucking wrong about it too.

By the way, I'm in a coffee shop at the moment (because I can't avoid every cliche) and a woman walked by with a huge pinup girl tattoo on her leg. I would have stopped her an berated her for marking herself with an image that so grotesquely objectifies the female form, but I didn't know if she was a scientist on her way to press conference or just a lady buying coffee, so I thought better of that action and stayed my hand.

This is the 21st century, man, people don't wear fedoras and three-piece suits to a showing at the picture house anymore.
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#66
A"Pop outrage idiots" is the best description of the current rash of social issue fundsmentalists I've read yet.
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#67
Quote:

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I've seen this equivalency made elsewhere and don't entirely agree with it, but you're saying it's his fault because of what he was wearing? Does that not sound uncomfortably familiar? What if this was Melissa instead of Matt and she was covered in tattoos and wearing a pinup girl shirt? You know for a fact that a certain group of people (Conservative prudes; let's call an asshole an asshole) would have had something to say and they'd be fucking wrong about it too.

By the way, I'm in a coffee shop at the moment (because I can't avoid every cliche) and a woman walked by with a huge pinup girl tattoo on her leg. I would have stopped her an berated her for marking herself with an image that so grotesquely objectifies the female form, but I didn't know if she was a scientist on her way to press conference or just a lady buying coffee, so I thought better of that action and stayed my hand.

This is the 21st century, man, people don't wear fedoras and three-piece suits to a showing at the picture house anymore.

Oh, I'm well aware that I may have been heading down that road with that post.  But at the same time, a girl sitting in a coffeshop is vastly different from a guy whose face and name is being shown in numerous venues. I am in no way saying that he deserved to get death threats and bothered to the point of tears--that's not at all what I'm implying. This is, at best, a mention in some click-bait site that pokes fun on how hideous that shirt is. But it's like, if I worked at some high-profiled company, waiting to give to greatest presentation of my life, and decide to show up in shorts, sandals and a baseball cap, should I be upset that my peers (or other people) might think less of me? I just think there's a time and a place for these things, and the guy chose the wrong place.

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#68
AThis was a press conference, not some formal company event where business / business casual attire was required. If he'd shown up in a baseball cap, shorts, and sandals, no one would have said anything. I actually just attended a business casual company "townhall", and aside from being bored senseless and hating every minute of it and wanting to die just to escape it, I was struck by the juxtaposition of a group of people concerned more about what we wore than they were about tossing out innuendo-laden gags and ebola jokes, which is what they were doing.

Full disclosure: I have a tattoo on the inside of my arm of a hermaphroditic deity that I've had for many years, but I have to obscure the breasts on it at the job because the tattoo artist went outside the parameters of the design I gave him and made said breasts far more prominent than I intended. So now a quick glance at it just makes it appear as if I have a big boobed woman displayed on my inner arm, sort of defeating the intent of why I got it to begin with. I've had people question the religious symbolism of the tattoo, and if that was the reason I've been asked to obscure it (which still may be the unspoken part of it), I'd tell upper management to fuck themselves, but considering the state of the work, I just wear long sleeves or give the thing a bra with a dry erase marker because I don't wish to be bothered with it.
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#69
Quote:

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

http://time.com/3589392/comet-shirt-storm/

Yes, I'm still thinking about this because it bugs me. This is not good for feminism and there is such a thing as bad feminism. I have no issue working through all of the bad ideas before getting to the good ones, but if we're going to talk about misogyny and discrimination, you have to work through what does or does not constitute those things.

Christ, I wish there was a stronger (genuine) female presence on this site.


That's a terrible article by a right winger and people should pay no attention to it. Cathy Young is one of those writers like Christina Hoff Sommers who the anti-feminists like to trot out with "Hey look! Women agree with us!  We must be right".  The giveaway is the mention out of nowhere about Rebecca Watson.  She has no relevence to this at all unless there's some historical disagreement between the two or the broad sides of the debate.  And there is. They've been indirectly involved in wars of words from way back.  She probably thought of bringing her up by watching a Thunderfoot video or something.



Let's look at what really happened here:  Rather than the pervasiveness of a poisonous brand of feminism that just wants to keep good men down, censor the whole world and bring human kind under the heels of their sensible shoes, a couple of people tweeted a few snarky things about the shirt.  At such a display of public feminist sounding words things took the predictable course that they have done for years now;  the mob descends to attack and others defend.  The defense is then blown out of proportion because people are arguing for their position about a shirt they, in most cases, weren't that worried about to begin with.  Usual delights like serious sounding words misogyny and sexism being used (when in context they usually refer to misogynist culture), individuals being held up as representing feminism or women as a whole,  a typical array of writers loving the chance to paint some stripe of feminists as extremists like they have been doing for years etc etc.  It's all fairly predictable.


If you want to buy into the narrative that there are powerful aggressive feminists who command tremendous sway and are bad for... everything really, you're buying the narrative their opponents want you to have at this point.  When what actually took place was a fight over some fairly mild remarks, a fight which didn't need to happen, which grew as people explained and perhaps forcefully defended their opinion on the matter. Of course extremists were involved.  It's the internet.


If you come down at the end of this thinking that 'feminism looks bad because of this' then you're basically saying, wittingly or not, that the alternative is silence.  Say nothing feminist and this won't happen.  The assholes win.



Let's have a look at what the American Astronomical Society thought about it.



Quote:

The past few days have seen extensive international discussion of an incident (known online as #shirtstorm or #shirtgate) in which a participant in a European Space Agency media conference wore a shirt with sexualized images of gun-toting women and made an unfortunate remark comparing the featured spacecraft to a woman. Viewers responded critically to these inappropriate statements, especially jarring in such a highly visible setting (one in which very few women appeared), and the scientist apologized sincerely. But in the meantime, unacceptable abuse has been directed toward the critics, from criticism of “over-active feminism” to personal insults and more dire threats.

We wish to express our support for members of the community who rightly brought this issue to the fore, and we condemn the unreasonable attacks they experienced as a result, which caused deep distress in our community. ...


I'm sure to some it only reinforces how cowed so many are to the forces of insidious feminism that pervade the world and have done for decades.  The man wrote that with a gun to his head and garotte made from a blue stocking around his throat, according to them.  Or maybe they (the Society, that is) agree.



As I was alluding to before, people don't seem to judge this stuff on the actual content but the volume of it and whether that volume is appropriate.   But being leery about the volume of debate around something is a faulty position for assessing the validity of, well, anything really.  Even though it's tempting to judge that aspect.  Heck, some people do react in a conservative or knee jerk way thinking something must be a big deal just because there is so much talk of it (see Intel and gamergate *spits*).



As a partial aside, this is where I think the internet shitfest is a new frontier for public discourse.  We really don't know how to judge or react to something of that scale appropriately as all of our human analogues are of riots and popular uprisings where you'd have to take it seriously. So many words, so many seemingly angry voices. But they don't fit that analogue at all really.  They just seem to.  We have no concept for what these things really are.  One day I expect we'll just get used to them.



In the mean time the real question to me is not whether or not feminism is too extreme or out of control, but why mild expressions of feminist sounding stuff so often turns into this.  On the whole I've not seen much from feminists that makes it seem necessary or, on the extreme end, that wasn't already there and noone cared until recently.

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#70
A[quote name="JacknifeJohnny" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3806470"]I imagine the people around him, who know the man more than someone "angrily" mashing away at an iPhone, were probably occupied with the issue at hand. Also, the people attacking him aren't "feminist bullies", they're pop-outrage idiots who have appropriated and deformed the language and goals of something that is actually worth supporting.[/quote]

[quote name="Andy Bain" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3806481"]"Pop outrage idiots" is the best description of the current rash of social issue fundsmentalists I've read yet.[/quote]

Psst. They're called "social justice warriors".
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