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Misogyny and the discrimination and abuse of women in the US and around the world
#71
ANo! They're the

WARRIORS OF SOCIAL JUSTICE!!!
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#72
Quote:

Originally Posted by PMR View Post



Psst. They're called "social justice warriors".


You are just the worst.



Seriously.

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#73
AIt really is surprising that someone hadn't pulled him aside and told him not to wear the shirt. One of the ironies in this case is that various articles had been written along the lines that this tattooed chap is not your stereotypical scientist and yet another stereotype of scientists - that they're so socially inept they're blind to the world outside their projects - seems to have been reinforced. I'd wager there's no more wretched hive of scum and misogyny than construction, the world I've worked in for 22 years, but even we dumb carpenters would know better than to appear in front of a bunch of strangers wearing something like that, well-meant present from a lady or not.
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#74

Here is an informative story about rapes at UVA. It will make you make sad and piss you off.


http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/feat...s-20141119



 It looks like the Rolling Stone story did some good.


http://time.com/3601334/uva-fraternities...l-assault/

I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is that I have lost my way. The good news is that I'm way ahead of schedule.
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#75
A
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

 

That's a terrible article by a right winger and people should pay no attention to it. Cathy Young is one of those writers like Christina Hoff Sommers who the anti-feminists like to trot out with "Hey look! Women agree with us!  We must be right".  The giveaway is the mention out of nowhere about Rebecca Watson.  She has no relevence to this at all unless there's some historical disagreement between the two or the broad sides of the debate.  And there is. They've been indirectly involved in wars of words from way back.  She probably thought of bringing her up by watching a Thunderfoot video or something.

 

Let's look at what really happened here:  Rather than the pervasiveness of a poisonous brand of feminism that just wants to keep good men down, censor the whole world and bring human kind under the heels of their sensible shoes, a couple of people tweeted a few snarky things about the shirt.  At such a display of public feminist sounding words things took the predictable course that they have done for years now;  the mob descends to attack and others defend.  The defense is then blown out of proportion because people are arguing for their position about a shirt they, in most cases, weren't that worried about to begin with.  Usual delights like serious sounding words misogyny and sexism being used (when in context they usually refer to misogynist culture), individuals being held up as representing feminism or women as a whole,  a typical array of writers loving the chance to paint some stripe of feminists as extremists like they have been doing for years etc etc.  It's all fairly predictable.

If you want to buy into the narrative that there are powerful aggressive feminists who command tremendous sway and are bad for... everything really, you're buying the narrative their opponents want you to have at this point.  When what actually took place was a fight over some fairly mild remarks, a fight which didn't need to happen, which grew as people explained and perhaps forcefully defended their opinion on the matter. Of course extremists were involved.  It's the internet.

If you come down at the end of this thinking that 'feminism looks bad because of this' then you're basically saying, wittingly or not, that the alternative is silence.  Say nothing feminist and this won't happen.  The assholes win.

 

Let's have a look at what the American Astronomical Society thought about it.

 

 

I'm sure to some it only reinforces how cowed so many are to the forces of insidious feminism that pervade the world and have done for decades.  The man wrote that with a gun to his head and garotte made from a blue stocking around his throat, according to them.  Or maybe they (the Society, that is) agree.

 

As I was alluding to before, people don't seem to judge this stuff on the actual content but the volume of it and whether that volume is appropriate.   But being leery about the volume of debate around something is a faulty position for assessing the validity of, well, anything really.  Even though it's tempting to judge that aspect.  Heck, some people do react in a conservative or knee jerk way thinking something must be a big deal just because there is so much talk of it (see Intel and gamergate *spits*). 

 

As a partial aside, this is where I think the internet shitfest is a new frontier for public discourse.  We really don't know how to judge or react to something of that scale appropriately as all of our human analogues are of riots and popular uprisings where you'd have to take it seriously. So many words, so many seemingly angry voices. But they don't fit that analogue at all really.  They just seem to.  We have no concept for what these things really are.  One day I expect we'll just get used to them.

 

In the mean time the real question to me is not whether or not feminism is too extreme or out of control, but why mild expressions of feminist sounding stuff so often turns into this.  On the whole I've not seen much from feminists that makes it seem necessary or, on the extreme end, that wasn't already there and noone cared until recently.



You know what, buddy? Fuck you and your well-reasoned and intelligent response. Kidding of course. Has my opinion been completely altered? Nope. I still believe that this idea that has been bandied about that women won't want to get into STEM because of what they think a man's goofy shirt signals is absurd to me. Any person with the proper amount of drive will never be dissuaded from pursuing their goals and I think it is hyperbole to suggest that this specific man in that specific shirt is emblematic of a hostile work environment and the reason they would hesitate going into said field.
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#76
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post



 Any person with the proper amount of drive will never be dissuaded from pursuing their goals


I think this gets a little close to the "just pull yourself up by the bootstraps and stop whining!" dodge that often gets applied to race/class discussions.  For those specially driven individuals, yeah.  Nothing will stop them.  But as a matter of degrees, trends, and big pictures... I can't say that the shirt ISN'T somewhat representative of something that can discourage the number of women in STEM fields as a whole.  Nix that.  It's not representative.  It's a minor symptom that got blown up because it got prominently called out.



It's most definitely hyperbole to focus a whole system of issues onto one guy, one shirt, and a mistake.  But I think I've said before... this is hardly about just that guy anymore.  It's more about both sides screaming at the other.




"It's just a fucking shirt!  Now you PC thugs have gone too far!!!"



vs



"A shirt is not just a shirt!  There are bigger things going on than just the shirt!!!"




Two sides that are arguing on completely different wavelengths.





no free will

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#77
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 






no free will


cogs in the machine. all of us.




But yeah, Jackknife. You right. I guess my issue is more about "WHY IN GOD NAMES WOULD A DECENT HUMAN BEING WITH TASTE WEAR THAT SHIRT OHMYGODBURNITBURNITBURNIT.." then any sort of issue with misogyny.

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#78
A[quote name="mcnooj82" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3806804"]
"A shirt is not just a shirt!  There are bigger things going on than just the shirt!!!"[/quote]

I get what you're saying, but I guess a large part of why I don't really like 'call out culture' is that it takes all this collective fury about systemic and institutional injustice and smashes it like a hammer onto the head of a single unwitting person, who would probably turn out to be perfectly nice and decent if you had a proper chat with them. Casually fucking up people's lives as collateral damage probably isn't the best way to persuade the general public that your particular brand of morality is the way to go.
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#79

Oh, it wasn't a defense in this case.



I agree.  It's unfair.  And not the right way to go.



But for now, it's a big part of how this mob mentality goes online.  And until the eventual blowback (caused by widespread exhaustion with the philomena or some other event that drastically changes such narratives), it's what's going to happen.

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#80

http://vestavaingloria.com/2014/11/three...-internet/



YES YES MORE THINKPIECES!!!

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#81
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

http://vestavaingloria.com/2014/11/three...-internet/



YES YES MORE THINKPIECES!!!


I just can't.

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#82
ADO IT!!!
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#83
A[quote name="Waaaaaaaalt" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3806839"]I just can't.
[/quote]

It's actually pretty good. I do somewhat disagree with her on one point though and that's her opinion on why he was crying. She didn't seem to acknowledge that he may have been brought to tears because he was so high on this moment only to see it deeply obscured and his name nearly undone. I'm not saying he's not empathetic to the complaints, but that probably wasn't the thing at the forefront of his mind.

I can appreciate and acknowledge the perspective of others, but in this instance, I feel far more empathetic towards him because he took it on the chin like a champ and if I were in his position, my first instinct would have probably been to go nuclear; as is my nature. I imagine the situation would have become worse.
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#84
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

DO IT!!!

No, I hate women now.

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#85
AYOU MUST!!!
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#86
Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

YOU MUST!!!

I do, too many articles.

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#87
AHe *must* hate women or he *must* read the thinkpiece? This is all so confusing, arousing, and for some reason it's giving me the urge to bowl.
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#88
AYAAAAAAY!
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#89
AIn honor of this event, I'm reopening and renaming the boob thread: Bowling for Matt Taylor...











...No, not really.
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#90
AThe proceeds of this charity bowling event goes to NASA's mandatory plain white shirt budget!!!
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#91
AI was actually going to post some unrelated and far, far graver bits of news, specifically some stuff regarding Thailand and India, but that's a hard, depressing shift and I don't feel up to the job at the moment.
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#92
A[quote name="Jacob Singer" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3806772"]
You are just the worst.

Seriously.
[/quote]

Naw, the worst is Ayaan Hirsi Ali. How dare she tell American women they're focusing on trivial bullshit? This is why we need feminism: to fight misogynists like her.
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#93

She's right!

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#94

Everyone is pretty much right on in this thread, from Jacknife and his unease with the shitstorm that erupted about a bowling shirt, to Muzman and his analysis of why it's an issue worth discussing, to Paul C's excellent point that bringing down the hammer of social justice on one completely oblivious man is counterproductive and borderline cruel.



Everyone has a point.



Except PMR, who is still flailing around in two different threads desperately trying to score points for his "I hate that the games sites I read talk about social issues too, THEY ARE BEING MEAN TO ME, FEMINISM IS OPPRESSIVE" position.



Please just stop, man. You've walked into a mature, reasoned debate and started trying to take potshots with a potato gun. It's kind of sad.

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#95
AI thought my point in here was kind of obvious and distinct from the other thread.
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#96

Not really. You're still making the case that SJWs are these awful people who attack attack attack without seeing the forest for the trees. You can be doubtful of this specific case - one socially inept man taken to task over a trivial thing at a time when people should be celebrating his success - whilst still seeing your arguments in the other thread as self-centred nonsense.



You seem to lack any kind of appreciation for nuance and complexity when it comes to debating human interactions and societal issues, hence "look these SJWs are destroying this man just like they're infecting my gaming sites wah wah wah!", as though the two issues aren't entirely different. As though a clueless man in an ugly bowling shirt is analogous to a whole self-identified, very aggressive, openly misogynistic movement of people. As though defending an obvlious nerd who picked the wrong outfit means that you should also be cool with a guy throwing a snit because "ew these wimminz keep on talking shit about my games".

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#97
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

Here is an informative story about rapes at UVA. It will make you make sad and piss you off.


http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/feat...s-20141119



 It looks like the Rolling Stone story did some good.


http://time.com/3601334/uva-fraternities...l-assault/



That first one is a horrific article. Ugh. The second one totally doesn't reassure me at all.

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#98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merriweather View Post
 

Not really. You're still making the case that SJWs are these awful people who attack attack attack without seeing the forest for the trees. You can be doubtful of this specific case - one socially inept man taken to task over a trivial thing at a time when people should be celebrating his success - whilst still seeing your arguments in the other thread as self-centred nonsense.



You seem to lack any kind of appreciation for nuance and complexity when it comes to debating human interactions and societal issues, hence "look these SJWs are destroying this man just like they're infecting my gaming sites wah wah wah!", as though the two issues aren't entirely different. As though a clueless man in an ugly bowling shirt is analogous to a whole self-identified, very aggressive, openly misogynistic movement of people. As though defending an obvlious nerd who picked the wrong outfit means that you should also be cool with a guy throwing a snit because "ew these wimminz keep on talking shit about my games".


Ok, so let me get this straight:  Don't paint SJW's in broad strokes?  But its completely fine to label something like gamer gate completely one sided with being "very aggressive, openly misogynistic movement of people?"  It seems to me your contradicting yourself.  Groups and movements are not necessarily monolithic entities.  They take all sorts.

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#99
A[quote name="Ruckuss Zuckuss" url="/community/t/150432/misogyny-and-the-discrimination-and-abuse-of-women-here-and-around-the-world/50#post_3807386"]Ok, so let me get this straight:  Don't paint SJW's in broad strokes?  But its completely fine to label something like gamer gate completely one sided with being "very aggressive, openly misogynistic movement of people?"  It seems to me your contradicting yourself.  Groups and movements are not necessarily monolithic entities.  They take all sorts.  
[/quote]

False equivalency. GamerGate is a title created by a specific group used to define themselves. SJW is a perjorative used by that group to paint a huge swath across almost anyone with any problem with the way games depict women, regardless of degree or validity. Not the same,
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Quote:

Originally Posted by bendrix View Post


False equivalency. GamerGate is a title created by a specific group used to define themselves. SJW is a perjorative used by that group to paint a huge swath across almost anyone with any problem with the way games depict women, regardless of degree or validity. Not the same,

Thats reducing it to semantics.  I'll simply rephrase as social justice groups which I don't believe should be generalized.  Likewise, should someone like Totalbiscuit who has supported(also criticized)GG be dismissed from association?   Does he have no merit?

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ADespite what Merriweather thinks, I myself didn't make any connection to the other thread and I'd rather keep that discussion over there in Video Games. Thanks.
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I don't want to turn this into ANOTHER GG thread but you what's the difference between them and the assholes going apeshit over a shirt?



No-one doxxed, threatened or harassed Matt Taylor in any way for his shirt.  At most, it was one angry article on The Verge and a few irate tweets which resulted in the ESA going into damage-control mode a tad prematurely IMO.  In fact, the response from most people that I've spoken to about this issue has been relatively cool.  Most think it's a tacky shirt but he didn't do anything wrong.  Others agree that it's fucking stupid and really damaging to feminism in general.



Contrast it with the almost zealous defence that's sprung up around Taylor in the wake of his apology, and it feels much more like an issue being perpetuated as an example of the EEEEVILS of feminism.



I feel really sorry for Matt Taylor that what was supposed to be one of the best days of his life got soured by some trivial bullshit.  I feel pissed off that some idiots kicked up a fuss about what is honestly, a non-issue.  People making a fuss over this are what a lot of people view feminism as. And that alone is very damaging for garnering any actual support.  But no-one who criticised that shirt has looked the other way or down-played an invasion of Taylor's personal privacy or attacks on him.

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From the other thread:



Quote:

Originally Posted by PMR View Post

I don't understand why some of you aren't down with ShirtStorm. It's everything social justice warriors stand for in a nutshell. It's just science journalism growing up, bros. For far too long, science has been a boys club, concerned with advancements and results. But it took the brave civil rights activists on Twitter to show us privileged types the important thing to women in science was actually fashion! What kind of mansplaining misogynists are you to tell them otherwise?


Sure, you didn't connect the two *at all*.

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ANotice how I asked that in the other thread only after other people already brought it up?
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So? You still vomited that nonsense out rather than act like an adult. Just like you are here, posting snarky links and trying to score points without realizing what a child it makes you look like.

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