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Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief
#71
AAnd if we're not talking about a celebrity's kid, there's a good chance of the kid growing up as a rice paddy slave while Mom works off her billion year obligation the the Sea Org. Otherwise it's totally the same, you're right.
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#72
Quote:

Originally Posted by cccc View Post
 

That's what I fucking can't stand!  I would never ever push any kind of religion or belief system on my kids.   Your job as a parent is to let your kids think for themselves, not to brainwash them.


Yeah but that really isn't how religion works. If you are into and you truly think this is how the world started and these are THE principles to live by then why wouldn't you push it on your kids? Don't you want your children's soul to end up in a good place for all eternity?

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#73

Religious or atheist, your parents push their beliefs on you no matter what they are. Movies, music, TV, books, politics etc. Consciously or not. Then you reach a certain age where you decide if you agree with them or not.

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#74
Quote:

Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Religion or not, your parents push their beliefs on you no matter what they are. Movies, music, TV, books, politics etc. Consciously or not. Then you reach a certain age where you decide if you agree with them or not.



You can be damned sure that any kid that I raise is gonna love Rush or be disowned.

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#75
Quote:

Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Religious or atheist, your parents push their beliefs on you no matter what they are. Movies, music, TV, books, politics etc. Consciously or not. Then you reach a certain age where you decide if you agree with them or not.



Assuming of course that the parents haven't done their damnedest to beat (metaphorically?) the individuality and inquisitiveness out of their children.



Jesus Camp

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#76

Extremes sure. But you'll find that everywhere.



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#77
A[quote name="Judas Booth" url="/community/t/152932/going-clear-scientology-hollywood-and-the-prison-of-belief/50#post_3866564"]
You can be damned sure that any kid that I raise is gonna love Rush or be disowned.
[/quote]

Limbaugh?

Not to get all lefty-petty, but did LRH occasionally speaking through the left side of his mouth remind anyone else of Dick Cheney?
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#78
Quote:

Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Religious or atheist, your parents push their beliefs on you no matter what they are. Movies, music, TV, books, politics etc. Consciously or not. Then you reach a certain age where you decide if you agree with them or not.



I can honestly say my parents didn't push anything on me?  I seriously can't think of anything.

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#79
AAnd that in itself is a worldview/MO/child-raising approach... intentional or not.

Even something like Santa Claus is a very specific worldview with its own connotations.  It just happens to be a relatively innocuous one (though some might disagree).

What it comes down to for me is that something is ALWAYS pushed.  Or pulled.  The ones that get push/pulled the most successfully are the ones we're not cognizant of.



no free will
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#80

FWIW- In my employment history, I've had a few bosses that were complete dicks....real assholes. Making inappropriate comments/jokes. verbally chastising an individual's work in front of co-workers. Threatening to fire people....only to chime in with the "hey, I'm just kidding" retort at the end.



The one thing in common with these individuals...they were all relatively short. 5'5" or less.



Whether there is any truth to the idea that short people can have a 'Napoleon Complex' can be debated but based on personal experience, I think there is some truth to this.


 

Disclosure- I'm 6'1"



Now I just read that David Miscavige is 5'1".

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#81
ASo, Cruise has yet to issue a response. In the absence of him coming out for a fight, I imagine he's just laying low in the hope that it will get filtered out of the news cycle before he begins the M:I-5 press tour in earnest (at which point I assume "Going Clear" questions will not be allowed). Of course then you've got the late night circuit, which he's been hitting quite a bit in his last few releases. That's going to be interesting.
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#82
A
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieFerguson View Post

It'll likely be on GO/Demand and probably re-aired a bunch.  It is HBO after all.

 

Surprised they didn't at least touch on Cruz/Holmes/that one Scarlett Johansson anecdote as a follow up to them trying to recruit from within with Nazanin Boniadi.   Although I guess since I'd never heard that story, best to focus on that.  Yikes.

 

 

They're an ouroboros. 


I think they may have passed on that stuff, one, because it becomes more about being gossipy at that point, like a celebrity expose, and two, possible legal reasons.
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#83

Travolta responds:



http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrit...ar-AAaxIQn

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#84

I'm disappointed that he doesn't even want to watch the documentary.  Everyone that strongly believes something should be willing to have that belief challenged.  Fear of being challenged usually indicates a fear of being made out as a fool.

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#85

Reading Travolta's comment, it basically boils down to "I don't really care if they're treating people badly as long as I don't have to hear about it.  They treat me well so they're cool."

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#86

From what I gathered with the interview with Paul Haggis it seems like it was pretty much forbidden to watch or read anything about the church that didn't come from the church.  I think it's drilled into most of their heads that it's all lies.

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#87
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fence View Post
 

Reading Travolta's comment, it basically boils down to "I don't really care if they're treating people badly as long as I don't have to hear about it.  They treat me well so they're cool."


Might as well be Cruise's answer too.



Quote:
 Everyone that strongly believes something should be willing to have that belief challenged.  Fear of being challenged usually indicates a fear of being made out as a fool.

I think it's a bit more than that. Sure some of it is the possible humiliation of being told you're wrong--happens to all of us. But the people in this documentary definitely seem desperate. Personally, religion only really works if it highlights the individual: it is you that's making gains towards your own spiritual awakening. What makes scientology fucking evil is that it brainwashes people to believe that it's actually the system that's saving you--not the individual. I"m sure there's plenty of followers who suspect, maybe even believe, that a lot of it is total bullshit. But many of them are convinced that Scientology actually did save them from whatever hell they were in--why would you want to leave it behind?

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#88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 

I'm disappointed that he doesn't even want to watch the documentary.  Everyone that strongly believes something should be willing to have that belief challenged.  Fear of being challenged usually indicates a fear of being made out as a fool.



I'm can't say I'm disappointed because I knew damn well that he wasn't going to watch the docu.



Although...


1- He would never admit  publicly to watching it.


2- IF he did admit to watching  it, he would be in complete denial over everything depicted in it and would have been supplied with all the anti-docu talking points.



I am reminded of the 'trucker' from Religulous.



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#89

And then there is that whole issue of having all that personal data of you from your years of e-reading sessions that they hold over you if you threaten to step out of line.  But yeah, no surprise at this response at all.

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#90

Oh, I totally buy into the fact that they amass dirty laundry lists on all of their members.  That's easy leverage, and it makes complete sense from a simple business point of view.

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#91

Extortion does make good business sense, I suppose.  Also, the "x" makes it sound cool.

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#92
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

Extortion does make good business sense, I suppose.



You're a fool if you think otherwise.

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#93
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

Extortion does make good business sense, I suppose.  Also, the "x" makes it sound cool.



.....in both a literal, real world sense as well as on a spiritual/theological level.



I mean, who want's to go to hell, right?

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#94

Our free weekend of HBO/Cinemax on Dish started last night and I caught this right after it started. Crazy stuff, and hugely compelling. I was making dinner and had to keep pausing it because I didn't want to miss anything.



Agreed on the length--I wanted to hear more, and honestly, I thought they went light on Tom Cruise. I was expecting a lot more. But wow, that lead guy reminded me of a dictator of a country the way he carried himself. And what the hell was up with the Navy outfits? That made them look even crazier. And the Oscars could learn a thing or two from those Scientoligist meetings.



Can't believe a "religion" with only 50k followers has $3 billion in the bank and the US government has done pretty much nothing to investigate them. The lawsuit they talked about at the end, filed by the guy's wife...the end result of that will be interesting. You can lie to the press and your followers all you want...but if you do that in a court of law, you're fucked.




I remember seeing late-night commercials for Dianetics when I was in college and floundering a little in my life...I'm glad I never picked up a book to read more about it. Then again...I might have been in a documentary! DAMMIT!

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#95
AIf you can't describe a religion without using words like "wacky" then they should never have gotten tax exemption in the first place. If it's that easy I'm just gonna start a Church of Jedi and rake it in. I mean, who the hell in the IRS did L Ron Hubbard have dirt on to be able to strong arm them like that??
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#96

They said in the doc that the lawyers for the church had all their members start filing lawsuits against not just the IRS, but against individuals in the IRS, including the head of the department. Then they met with the head of the IRS, and assured him that all the lawsuits would go away if he gave them tax-exempt status, and there you have it.

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#97

It floors me that the IRS hasn't come up with a better strategy to go after this church in the past 20 years, though.  That carpet bombing of lawsuits may have worked once, but I don't see how it could work again, especially if the IRS is prepared for it.

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#98
Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 

It floors me that the IRS hasn't come up with a better strategy to go after this church in the past 20 years, though.  That carpet bombing of lawsuits may have worked once, but I don't see how it could work again, especially if the IRS is prepared for it.



I would assume that once religious status is granted, it is a very slippery slope to try and repeal it.  It's discouraging to think of all the small fish the IRS have chased down over the years after just spinelessly letting this huge one go.  It would be absolutely fascinating to know how much tax revenue has been allowed to disappear into the ether, both from the holdings of the church itself and its wealthier members using it to shield their income.

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#99
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fence View Post
 


It would be absolutely fascinating to know how much tax revenue has been allowed to disappear into the ether, both from the holdings of the church itself and its wealthier members using it to shield their income.



Auditors must be salivating at the prospect of taking down $cientology.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 


Auditors must be salivating at the prospect of taking down $cientology.



Oh the irony.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fence View Post
 


I would assume that once religious status is granted, it is a very slippery slope to try and repeal it.  It's discouraging to think of all the small fish the IRS have chased down over the years after just spinelessly letting this huge one go.  It would be absolutely fascinating to know how much tax revenue has been allowed to disappear into the ether, both from the holdings of the church itself and its wealthier members using it to shield their income.


They said in the doc when they sort of did the "all or nothing" lawsuit thing, the church owed over a billion dollars in taxes. The guy said, either we get to be tax exempt, or we're done. The assets of the church at the time were about 250 million dollars.

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AI just cannot fathom how Tom Cruise and John Travolta...two successful, seemingly intelligent and sane people....could be so gung-ho about an organization that is so obviously just a bunch of goofy, crooked bullshit.

...I refuse to believe that they're so dense that they thought their audit sessions were anything more than a method to get dirt on them and leverage to keep em on a leash. "If you leave the church we'll tell the world that you've confessed your homosexuality to us and ruin you." If that's what's going on. I mean really, what the fuck.
They really think it's better for their public image to be so close to a nutty, greedy, evil cult than to be outed as gay? Who cares? It's not a bad thing and it would be nice to see them be honest with the public (and themselves) about who they really are. It really makes them look like pretty spineless cowards when you think about it. Unless they've got them on video confessing to child molestation or something that's actually horrible and evil and could get them thrown in jail. Which is such an awful thought.

A couple of years ago when Katie Holmes and Cruise were separated and on the road to divorce (provided he's really straight and the marriage was actually real) I was secretly wishing Cruise would leave the church to try and keep her. I don't think there's anything he could have done to improve his public image more than that..
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ABoundless ambition makes for strange bedfellows.
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FWIW


re: Cruise, Travolta being/acknowledging homosexual behavior.....



If I'm not mistaken, Liberace repeatedly denied being gay despite stories to the contrary.




....not that there's anything wrong with it.  : )

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I know IT FOLLOWS has received a lot of positive attention, but this is my horror film of the year.

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