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The Maybe, Possibly, Impending Destruction of Louis CK
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Originally Posted by Codename View Post

Or maybe it's cause most people don't like it when someone treats a conversation like a fist fight and see that as approaching an issue with bad faith, even if unintentionally.


Fist fight, debate, boxing match, internet message board discussion, oh my god, whatever. The point was that I understand things can get heated but also that we can walk away from them and bear no ill will.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 


I treat discussions here as discussions, myself. I think you're great, and I only find you personally frustrating when you (sometimes) act as The One True Arbiter of Feminism around here.



For what it's worth, I think you're great too. The keenest, even. Big Grin



I've tried - at least in the last month or so (took a while!) to scale back the Arbiter of Feminism stuff. Which is exactly why I didn't comment in this thread recently aside from posting that article about that film, because, see above!

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Fair enough.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

Fair enough.



I don't know if you saw the post before I edited, so let me say again. You're great.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Amos Orange View Post
 

Are there any named accusers at this point? I'm not exactly up to speed here.



The Tig Notaro thing sounded very ambiguous.


There have never been named accusers. There were a couple mentions of "swirling rumours" which allowed us to conjure up an image of this whole thing being an open secret in the comedy world that doesn't get out because CK is a machiavellian skeeve who threatens or pays everyone off. Except that not only does Kirkman (who essentially kicked off this situation) say she wasn't talking about him, she also claims to never have met anyone who has had any issues with him, which is surprising given how small the comedy world is.



I don't know, maybe I'm just defending a comedian I like, but I do think it's irresponsible to drag a man's name through mud when there's only one or two thirdhand accusations.

I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evi View Post
 

There have never been named accusers. There were a couple mentions of "swirling rumours" which allowed us to conjure up an image of this whole thing being an open secret in the comedy world that doesn't get out because CK is a machiavellian skeeve who threatens or pays everyone off. Except that not only does Kirkman (who essentially kicked off this situation) say she wasn't talking about him, she also claims to never have met anyone who has had any issues with him, which is surprising given how small the comedy world is.



I don't know, maybe I'm just defending a comedian I like, but I do think it's irresponsible to drag a man's name through mud when there's only one or two thirdhand accusations.


I think it's irresponsible to drag a man's name through the mud as well but still think Kirkman was talking about him and is now backpedaling. The way she described him initially could have only been Louie CK. Then later she appeared on Nerdist where she addressed the situation and said that she told that story and it was "really obvious who I was talking about" which means she obviously heard who most thought it was and agreed. She then said that she called him and smoothed things over.



Now it could be that Louie said whatever he said to her, she didn't like it and that was all she was talking about and the jerking off stuff never happened but she was certainly talking about him in her personal story.

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I would say that it should put a button on this scandal, barring further accusations. Or Notaro acting on a grudge of some kind.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler View Post


So we have one person who said nothing happened, and unsubstantiated gossip based in two people who've confirmed nothing.

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This worked out well for Bill Cosby, then?

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The hunt is on.


http://jezebel.com/tell-us-what-you-know...1818549472

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Wow.

I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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yeah...with no new evidence that Jezebel thing almost feels like libel.

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News orgs have been sourcing tips from the public since there were news organizations.

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Rarely for things that have zero evidence of actually happening, though.

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Am I missing something? If I've got the details wrong, by all means let me know.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Amos Orange View Post
 

Am I missing something? If I've got the details wrong, by all means let me know.



It has been widely reported that these allegations are more than just Jen Kirkman, including by Jezebel, and so I think pointing to one accuser (much the way we did with Andrea Costand) as the be-all, end-all is a mistake.



Jezebel has also been sourcing tips from its readers for years. As has Page Six. As have news sites. As have as have as have. It's a common practice. It's not unlike asking around at a cocktail party if anyone knows anything.

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So is this a legitimate story as long as there are unsubstantiated rumors swirling?



This Jezebel post certainly does all it can to keep the ball in the air.



And broadcasting to an audience of millions is not the same thing as asking around at a cocktail party. Gee whiz.

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AAgree, that's ugly as sin.
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I guess it depends on your definition of unsubstansiated, and if there's one thing I know about Chud, it's that everyone has a different definition of it. Technically, since they've never been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, every woman who came forward to accuse Bill Cosby of sexual assault and Donald Trump of rape is "unsubstansiated."

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no named accusers = unsubstantiated

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Does it have to be the accuser specifically, or someone like Tig Notaro, who has indicated she knows this is a thing?

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AIs she telling what she knows to Jezebel or just using it as a plot point on her tv show?
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ATrial by media.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by neil spurn View Post

Trial by media.


So you think Bill Cosby is innocent? I'm just teasing this out.

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Bill Cosby had numerous named accusers, going back decades.


Stop bringing Cosby up. His situation and this one are not at all similar.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
 

Bill Cosby had numerous named accusers, going back decades.


Stop bringing Cosby up. His situation and this one are not at all similar.



They are, actually. Up until the Andrea Costand trial, there were rumors similar to this one, going back decades, particularly among the comedy community. Numerous comedians have come out - after the fact, of course - and said that they were aware of these stories. In the 1980s and 1990s, at least two stories were spiked by journalists  from women that were willing to come forward.



And even when the Constand trial happened for the first time, many of the women didn't come forward or put their names to the accusations (or were listed as Jane Does to protect their privacy in the 2005 case).



It really wasn't until the Buress routine that the full scope was known. But I think the comparison, particularly in relation to Louis CK's position within the comedy community, is comparable to that first, pre-Constand period, when there were rumors, and stories, but no names.



Anyway, I've argued about this particular topic enough today.

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So Boone, just so I understand your position, if any woman accuses a man of sexual impropriety it is to be believed until conclusively proven false (even then it can be troubling). And there is no problem with the widespread reporting of rumors as long as the target of said rumor is a male in a position of privilege. Do I have it right?

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Well, lets just start with one named, or even rumored accuser.



Because from what I can tell, all this comes from Jen Kirkman, who claims she was misunderstood. And then Roseanne jumped in, without any substantiative claim. And Tig Onaro sounds very much like someone with an axe to grind.



Not to dismiss the accusations with a blanket wave of the hand. But unless I am misreading all the timelines, the only real accusations is Kirkman's, and she has since walked it back. There was also the statements by the duo - I am forgetting the name - but again, they have since said publicly they were not talking about Louis CK.



Again, not really like Cosbys situation.



Thats my read on it, as of today. I hadn't been following it until Kirkman made it news by saying, 'No, its not him.' Which seems, to me, like kind of a crazy thing to just throw out there. So she was fine with everyone assuming it was this guy for the last couple years? Or what?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
 

Well, lets just start with one named, or even rumored accuser.



Because from what I can tell, all this comes from Jen Kirkman, who claims she was misunderstood. And then Roseanne jumped in, without any substantiative claim. And Tig Onaro sounds very much like someone with an axe to grind.


I'm curious about the fallout of their relationship. There seems to be some business issues there along with the other allegations. She doesn't really strike me as someone with an axe to grind, imo.

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The interview with her - where she says over and over, "he is in no way involved in this show, even though he's listed as an executive producer" - I mean, clearly there is some falling out there.



And not to get too hypothetical, but I can imagine a scenario where she shuts the guy out because of the assumed implication of Kirkman's accusations. Which would be kind of fucked up, since Kirkman has since walked it back. Which is what I find really bizarre about the whole thing. Its not like those were neutral comments on her part.

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I guess the alternative explanation is that the CK Mafia finally put the screws to Kirkman, and her retraction is under duress.



Add in the fact that everyone involved seems to be integrating this shit into their comedy, and its all kinds of weird.

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Thing is I actually wouldn't be that surprised if any of this turns out to be true - CK's always seemed mildly creepy to me - but there is something disingenuous about how Jezebel is going about it. Firstly, this happens not after a new accusation but right after someone actually exonerates him and secondly, they're pretending that this is about putting the rumour to bed, which is utter bullshit. You can't prove a negative, and whether he's guilty or not this is going to haunt him forever.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mangy View Post
 

I'm curious about the fallout of their relationship. There seems to be some business issues there along with the other allegations. She doesn't really strike me as someone with an axe to grind, imo.



Didn't Louis (or an SNL writer) did rip off one of Notaro's sketches in an episode of SNL Louis hosted last year?  Not that it would invalidate anything she says. Its just another piece of a messy puzzle.



Even with the ripped off sketch, we never got a clear explanation on how that happened.  Was it an inadvertent thing or a writer trying to slip something by and hoping no one noticed?


 

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Notaro doesn't strike me as the unreasonable or axe-grinding type, but it's not like I actually know her or anything.  Conversely, I haven't seen her show, so I'm rather clueless about what is actually in the episode.  But if it is so damning and specific, what is holding her back from just coming out and making the accusation concrete?  Because she also doesn't strike me as the timid type (the last special of hers I saw had the most fearless segment of stand-up I've ever seen), and it's not as though the indirect route is even indirect at this point, is it?  



Also, if anyone could give me a refresher on how Garfunkle And Oates factors into this, I'd appreciate it.  Rudimentary googling is failing to find me the original comment or reference that got them in the mix, but I know they were at some point.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post
 

So Boone, just so I understand your position, if any woman accuses a man of sexual impropriety it is to be believed until conclusively proven false (even then it can be troubling). And there is no problem with the widespread reporting of rumors as long as the target of said rumor is a male in a position of privilege. Do I have it right?



I think, as I've said before, you have to handle this on a case-by-case basis. And in the case of Louis CK, it goes way beyond Tig Notaro and Jen Kirkman. I have friends and colleagues in the NYC comedy scene and this stuff has dogged Louie for years. In this case, I believe it's more than two women, and in this case, I choose to believe them.

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