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Noah Hawley's LEGION on FX
Count me among those who loved the episode too. The animated battle was great. The little Melanie and Oliver flashforward was brilliant, funny and sweet and romantic in the dorkiest way possible with just the right amount of sadness. That losing their bodies, their memories, and their loved ones while living inside a one room ice cube forever constitutes a 'happy ending' for them at this point is heartbreaking but they seem so damn happy too.

I'm totally on the opposite end of a lot of people's readings on Syd turning on David, too. I thought the show executed that rather well. Farouk didn't really lie to Syd at all; he just pushed her to realize something that already appeared to be happening and then twisted the fallout of her realizing the 'truth' about David to his own ends, which is infinitely more interesting and sinister than him just 'tricking' her.

Also loved the idea of turning the 'delusion' pieces back around onto David and the viewer regarding his and our own roles in the story. It's a great twist because as a viewer you're suddenly realizing that you've been on the same 'character arc' as the character while he was going through it, succumbing to the delusion that maybe he wasn't 'crazy' and then being confronted with the truth at the same time, while also breaking the viewer away from the character at the same time that the others do because we like the rest of them can see he's going 'full villain' where David himself cannot.
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(06-14-2018, 10:39 AM)superlaser Wrote: Also loved the idea of turning the 'delusion' pieces back around onto David and the viewer regarding his and our own roles in the story. It's a great twist because as a viewer you're suddenly realizing that you've been on the same 'character arc' as the character while he was going through it, succumbing to the delusion that maybe he wasn't 'crazy' and then being confronted with the truth at the same time, while also breaking the viewer away from the character at the same time that the others do because we like the rest of them can see he's going 'full villain' where David himself cannot.

100%. The ultimate subversion of the standard superhero arc was such a writerly Noah Hawley move, but it works so well here, and again - in retrospect, it makes the whole season just feel that much tighter thematically. And even though this isn't always the most emotionally compelling show, David's realization that he's not the hero of his own story was a wonderfully emotional beat. Even after the turn, in the episodes final moments, with all his friends staring in at him, I still felt myself empathizing with David. Stevens' performance is crazy good here.

I loved the finale. Thrilled this is getting a season 3.
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It's interesting seeing how people are dealing with the fact that the main character is a rapist. There's no way you can take that back, even if David gets his eventual redemption arc. You emphasize with him because he's a well-written character played by a really good actor.


I'm really curious where we go from here.
 I think all Marvel films are okay. This is my design.

Except for Thor 2: the literal worst.
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(06-14-2018, 10:16 AM)schwartz Wrote: I find it odd how you guys who are so offended by Syd's rapiness have expressed zero opinion on the big turn in the finale being David raping her.

Well, in danger of going all tl;dr, which apparently no one wants, that would be in my case because it's all part of a swirl of vagueness, ambiguity, and mysteriousness that the show has so wrapped itself in this season that you can't trust, believe, or invest in anything or anyone. This is really one small, but vital aspect of ALL THAT, which I'll get into.

First off, Farouk-as-Melanie gives a Hannibal Lecture to Syd. Is this one of Farouk's body-hops, as we saw him take over Melanie the same way just last episode? We know from the Oliver switcheroo that Farouk can leave some sort of 'post-hypnotic suggestion' in his victims. And we've seen extensively that Farouk can infect people with little delusion bugs, which can--hey!--make them believe that someone entirely innocent is really monstrously evil and try to kill that person. 

SO, 1. Is David just undoing Farouk's brainwashing of Syd by erasing her memories? Because if he is, then sleeping with her would be no more wrong then, say, Catwoman undoing Poison Ivy's control of Batman and sleeping with him when he's back in possession of his facilities. How can someone be taking away another person's ability to consent when they're undoing the modification someone else did?

Well, no, you say, Farouk didn't brainwash Syd, he just talked to her and she was convinced to murder David entirely of her own free will (note: this makes her a horrible fucking person). (Also note: why WOULDN'T Farouk just brainwash Syd? Just to muddy things up through the fourth wall? It's contrived.) 

1a. And again, even if Farouk didn't brainwash Syd, is that what David thought or believed? Because remember...

2. David really, really, REALLY clearly has a psychotic break from Syd's actions (and who can blame him?). He's hallucinating, he's talking to himself, he apparently has multiple personalities. So, can we blame him for what he does when he's having a psychotic episode or can we blame all his mentally stable friends who, all of their own free will, try to kill him, imprison him, free his abuser and parade the murderer of his sister around in front of him like he's their new best friend, threaten to  kill him (again), and accuse him of being a monster in the most unhelpful, toxic, and abusive ways imaginable (seriously, would anyone with an IQ in the triple digits call the last ten minutes of that finale an even slightly responsible approach to David's mental health)?

Needless to say, not only does Syd have no such excuse, but she's the worst kind of hypocrite in demanding sympathy and forgiveness for her own crimes, then exacting murderous retribution on those who wrong her. To put it back into comic book terms, David is Two-Face and Syd is Lex Luthor. Sure, they both kill people, but you'd have to be an idiot to say they're equally vile.
I'm still avian.
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dude. waaaat.
 I think all Marvel films are okay. This is my design.

Except for Thor 2: the literal worst.
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See, this is why I didn't want to do this. Because when I'm the minority opinion on something, I try to write out a well-reasoned, cogent argument for why I feel the way I feel, and no one fucking engages with me.
I'm still avian.
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Avian, the thread is averaging 1-2 posts every couple of hours. Lots of us are, like myself, at work or otherwise indisposed right now and your post brought up a lot of points. Take a deep breath, step back off the martyr pyre, and let people have a chance to formulate their responses before you go off like that.

I'll have more later when I have more time to do a 'real' response, but throwing in lines about how anyone who disagrees with you must have an IQ in the double digits also doesn't set the best tone for someone asking for people to engage with you in good faith.
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(06-14-2018, 02:30 PM)superlaser Wrote: Avian, the thread is averaging 1-2 posts every couple of hours.  Lots of us are, like myself, at work or otherwise indisposed right now and your post brought up a lot of points.  Take a deep breath, step back off the martyr pyre, and let people have a chance to formulate their responses before you go off like that.

I'll have more later when I have more time to do a 'real' response, but throwing in lines about how anyone who disagrees with you must have an IQ in the double digits also doesn't set the best tone for someone asking for people to engage with you in good faith.

I'm sorry if I came off overly harsh there. I didn't mean to conflate people who enjoyed the episode with people who thought the characters' actions in the final scene were well-advised. But you can see how it would bug someone to write out a long post of critique--which is what this board is for--and the first response is, well, "FIRST!"
I'm still avian.
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(06-14-2018, 02:38 PM)thecooleravian Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 02:30 PM)superlaser Wrote: Avian, the thread is averaging 1-2 posts every couple of hours.  Lots of us are, like myself, at work or otherwise indisposed right now and your post brought up a lot of points.  Take a deep breath, step back off the martyr pyre, and let people have a chance to formulate their responses before you go off like that.

I'll have more later when I have more time to do a 'real' response, but throwing in lines about how anyone who disagrees with you must have an IQ in the double digits also doesn't set the best tone for someone asking for people to engage with you in good faith.

I'm sorry if I came off overly harsh there. I didn't mean to conflate people who enjoyed the episode with people who thought the characters' actions in the final scene were well-advised. But you can see how it would bug someone to write out a long post of critique--which is what this board is for--and the first response is, well, "FIRST!"

I know buddy, and I think I like you even though we usually have very different opinions on stuff.  I remember well that you considered quitting the boards recently and just wanted to help reassure you, since I know it's a sensitive issue. 

Once I'm off work, I'll be able to deep-dive on your actual post.
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But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm still avian.
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(06-14-2018, 12:17 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: 2. David really, really, REALLY clearly has a psychotic break from Syd's actions (and who can blame him?). He's hallucinating, he's talking to himself, he apparently has multiple personalities. So, can we blame him for what he does when he's having a psychotic episode or can we blame all his mentally stable friends who, all of their own free will, try to kill him, imprison him, free his abuser and parade the murderer of his sister around in front of him like he's their new best friend, threaten to  kill him (again), and accuse him of being a monster in the most unhelpful, toxic, and abusive ways imaginable (seriously, would anyone with an IQ in the triple digits call the last ten minutes of that finale an even slightly responsible approach to David's mental health)?

I think its important to make the distinction that David was not cured once Farouk was removed from his mind. The show maybe wants us to believe that initially, and its easy for us to believe that, since we are absorbing most of the show from David's POV. The bad things David has done, the good people he's hurt - we are more than willing to wave that stuff away because he's our protagonist. The Shadow King did it... except, David has been the one in the drivers seat this season, and to a certain degree, he always has been. That's the long game the writers were playing.

Whether or not the show's approach to mental health is responsible or not... This is a comic book world, and David has the ability to destroy literally everything. That's not theoretical; it's a fact. The combination of his immense powers and the severity of his illness (which again, is not wiped away with the exorcising of Farouk) means his closest friends needs to take drastic action. Its harsh - I mentioned earlier in the thread that even in the end, I empathized with David in these moments - but David was already well on his way to choosing power over a support system and balance. Its the main reason he brings Lenny along - the one person who will indulge his worst instincts no matter what.

Also, regarding the mind-wipe: this is a standard hero-turned-villain trope. I'm sure there are a bunch of these instances, but Willow did it in season 6 of Buffy, and that was essentially her point of no return. I had no problem buying it there, or here.
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(06-14-2018, 03:21 PM)fuzzy dunlop Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 12:17 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: 2. David really, really, REALLY clearly has a psychotic break from Syd's actions (and who can blame him?). He's hallucinating, he's talking to himself, he apparently has multiple personalities. So, can we blame him for what he does when he's having a psychotic episode or can we blame all his mentally stable friends who, all of their own free will, try to kill him, imprison him, free his abuser and parade the murderer of his sister around in front of him like he's their new best friend, threaten to  kill him (again), and accuse him of being a monster in the most unhelpful, toxic, and abusive ways imaginable (seriously, would anyone with an IQ in the triple digits call the last ten minutes of that finale an even slightly responsible approach to David's mental health)?

I think its important to make the distinction that David was not cured once Farouk was removed from his mind.  The show maybe wants us to believe that initially, and its easy for us to believe that, since we are absorbing most of the show from David's POV. The bad things David has done, the good people he's hurt - we are more than willing to wave that stuff away because he's our protagonist.  The Shadow King did it... except, David has been the one in the drivers seat this season, and to a certain degree, he always has been.  That's the long game the writers were playing.  

Whether or not the show's approach to mental health is responsible or not... This is a comic book world, and David has the ability to destroy literally everything.  That's not theoretical; it's a fact. The combination of his immense powers and the severity of his illness (which again, is not wiped away with the exorcising of Farouk) means his closest friends needs to take drastic action.  Its harsh - I mentioned earlier in the thread that even in the end, I empathized with David in these moments - but David was already well on his way to choosing power over a support system and balance.  Its the main reason he brings Lenny along - the one person who will indulge his worst instincts no matter what.  

Also, regarding the mind-wipe: this is a standard hero-turned-villain trope.  I'm sure there are a bunch of these instances, but Willow did it in season 6 of Buffy, and that was essentially her point of no return.  I had no problem buying it there, or here.

I would say that the show conflating "having a psychotic episode" almost entirely with "choosing evil" (with a fig-leaf of "Let us help you!" that's completely undermined by the "Or else!") is both irresponsible/hypocritical and, perhaps more damningly, bad storytelling. A mentally ill person with god-like powers and whether he should be dealt with pragmatically or compassionately is a cool premise, but I don't feel that's what we got so much as "David raped someone, he's evil now, he needs to be stopped." Look at the emphasis in the last few episodes (ever since the "Evil David" concept was introduced) on how David "enjoys" killing people. That's not a depiction of mental illness. That's the Dark Side from Star Wars.

Tl;dr: It's not so much (just) that I disagree with the direction that the show is going, but I find the storytelling it's using to go there hackneyed, contrived, and overall too poor to justify watching a very unenjoyable show. It feels like Hawley had no idea what to do with this season, so he just spun around in circles until the last few episodes, where he decided to latch onto the MeToo movement and try to turn the show into some rape-revenge story about Syd fighting her abusive ex, even though that makes no sense for the established characters and setting.
I'm still avian.
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(06-14-2018, 03:30 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: I would say that the show conflating "having a psychotic episode" almost entirely with "choosing evil" (with a fig-leaf of "Let us help you!" that's completely undermined by the "Or else!") is both 'irresponsible' and, perhaps more damningly, bad storytelling. A mentally ill person with god-like powers and how he should be dealt with is a cool premise, but I don't feel that's what we got so much as "David raped someone, he's evil now, he needs to be stopped." Look at the emphasis in the last few episodes (ever since the "Evil David" concept was introduced) on how David "enjoys" killing people. That's not a depiction of mental illness. That's the Dark Side from Star Wars.

I think the show has been a bit more nuanced with character development than you are giving it credit for. We've seen an entire season of David, free of Farouk, but living with a trauma that has completely warped his worldview and perspective, along side an untreated mental illness. When the show is from David's POV, we don't get a sense of just how warped things are, and that is by design.

When 'Evil David' shows up - the brutal torturing of Oliver - the facade starts to slip. Its not David choosing evil; its about David choosing to ignore very specific things that don't fit in to the narrative that he's created for himself (that he is a good person, and deserves to be loved).

So I think there's more going on here than just broad 'Dark Side' strokes, but even so, in a comic book show - I'd be OK with that. I wouldn't want this to turn into a serious examination / depiction of true mental illness.
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(06-14-2018, 10:16 AM)schwartz Wrote: I find it odd how you guys who are so offended by Syd's rapiness have expressed zero opinion on the big turn in the finale being David raping her.

I posted about ten total words about the episode ...

And yes, it was bothering me.  Did they want to leave us with no sympathetic characters?  I will also admit, however, I wasn't quite sure if that was actually happening the way I was seeing it or if Farouk had implanted the memories or orchestrated it somehow.

**I did really like the animated battle.
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For me, I can't take the show hopping between "zany Silver Age entertainment" and "meaningful, relevant sociopolitical messaging" from scene to scene. It feels disingenuous to have Jon Hamm going over psychology concepts one minute, then retreat into "it's a cartoon!" to make lazy storytelling choices the next. Also, the whole "future crimes" bit seems very Batman V. Superman.

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That's the show's entire supporting cast now? The good guys? And they're all correct to be so paranoid and cruel?

Well, I don't want to pick over the whole season, but this just isn't a show I'm interested in supporting anymore.
I'm still avian.
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I agree with fuzzy that Hawley's real interest here is not the depiction of/sympathy for mental illness. He's more concerned with the malleability of truth, group-think, self-delusion, etc. The mental illness angle is a means to an end here.

It's set up to keep something of a gray area. Syd 'believes' that Melanie/Farouk is right about David and the evidence is there, but David's also right that he's getting Minority Report-ed to some extent for stuff that hasn't actually happened yet. And he is the equivalent of a human WMD, after all. Syd's speech about the wives of serial killers is key here. What she's saying is that she's always felt something was wrong there, even when everything was ok, and she's refusing to turn a blind eye. And avian's point that their handling of the confrontation with him certainly exacerbated the situation, but at the same time could they truly expect a different reaction if they had approached him without having a plan to 'contain' him first? In any case, while the simplest description of the plot twist is 'David is the villain now', I doubt that the show will go with anything that simplistic.

I kind of like now that it took David forever to save Syd from her maze. Looking back, it makes sense. If she's part of his 'delusion' that he's a good person, than his view of her is warped. He can more clearly see the others to save them but he was trying to save Syd based on what he wanted her solution to be, not what she truly was.
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(06-14-2018, 04:17 PM)superlaser Wrote: I agree with fuzzy that Hawley's real interest here is not the depiction of/sympathy for mental illness.  He's more concerned with the malleability of truth, group-think, self-delusion, etc.  The mental illness angle is a means to an end here.

It's set up to keep something of a gray area.  Syd 'believes' that Melanie/Farouk is right about David and the evidence is there, but David's also right that he's getting Minority Report-ed to some extent for stuff that hasn't actually happened yet.  And he is the equivalent of a human WMD, after all.  Syd's speech about the wives of serial killers is key here.  What she's saying is that she's always felt something was wrong there, even when everything was ok, and she's refusing to turn a blind eye.  And avian's point that their handling of the confrontation with him certainly exacerbated the situation, but at the same time could they truly expect a different reaction if they had approached him without having a plan to 'contain' him first?  In any case, while the simplest description of the plot twist is 'David is the villain now', I doubt that the show will go with anything that simplistic.  

I kind of like now that it took David forever to save Syd from her maze.  Looking back, it makes sense.  If she's part of his 'delusion' that he's a good person, than his view of her is warped.  He can more clearly see the others to save them but he was trying to save Syd based on what he wanted her solution to be, not what she truly was.

And my point is--and this is admittedly subjective--that the depictions of mental illness and rape as a "means to an end" storywise is poorly done to the point of being offensive. As I said, they made the question of whether David raped Syd or not so 'fuzzy' that the show essentially has to break the fourth wall to say yes, he did, now BOO HIM FOR IT!
I'm still avian.
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The tone of the second season is just so all over the place and the production is so hyper-stylized it made it a chore to follow.

So, what was going on with the insect? Just a side-villain who David squashed and that's it?

Is the Hamm narrator really nothing more than the show just hammering themes at us?

Who/what was the Minotaur? Why does it appear real in some scenes and a mere parasitic vision in others?

How much of the desert scenes were real? The monks coming out of the hole, the drainplug, Syd parachuting in evening wear ... were these events actually supposed to have happened?

How much of the finale really happened (was Farouk really standing there during the prison bubble scene? Did Farouk implant/suggest/orchestrate David and Syd's fallout?). Is David REALLY nuts ... instead of just being damaged Farouk's inhabitating his mind for decades?

The first season raised a ton of questions, too, but in the final 2-3 episodes (of brilliant television) everything was tied up and resolved. This season? Uhhh......
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(06-14-2018, 02:59 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm pretty sure Ska was just disagreeing with your opinion.
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(06-14-2018, 04:24 PM)Overlord Wrote: The tone of the second season is just so all over the place and the production is so hyper-stylized it made it a chore to follow.

So, what was going on with the insect?  Just a side-villain who David squashed and that's it?

Is the Hamm narrator really nothing more than the show just hammering themes at us?  

Who/what was the Minotaur?  Why does it appear real in some scenes and a mere parasitic vision in others?  

How much of the desert scenes were real?  The monks coming out of the hole, the drainplug, Syd parachuting in evening wear ... were these events actually supposed to have happened?  

How much of the finale really happened (was Farouk really standing there during the prison bubble scene?  Did Farouk implant/suggest/orchestrate David and Syd's fallout?).  Is David REALLY nuts ... instead of just being damaged Farouk's inhabitating his mind for decades?  

The first season raised a ton of questions, too, but in the final 2-3 episodes (of brilliant television) everything was tied up and resolved brilliant.  This season?  Uhhh......

While I clearly differ with you about the quality of this season overall, I will agree that the resolution at the end of the first season was much more elegantly 'tied up' without being pat or trite compared to season 2.  When rewatching Season 1 after knowing the ending, all the 'confusing' parts suddenly made perfect sense and seemed logical (by the metric of this show, at least), and the ending of season 2 definitely doesn't give you that.  There's no easy answer on whether David or Syd were right.  Did Syd's 'betrayal' trigger David becoming a 'monster' or was David already too far down that path and Syd was doing what was necessary to stop him?  The reality is clearly a little bit of both, whereas the end of Season One (pre-spherenapping) had a much clearer message: David is better now and ready to fight.
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Okay, so one simple question about the finale: was Farouk actually in the room when David was in the electric hamster ball? No one else acknowledged his presence.
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(06-14-2018, 04:25 PM)Mangy Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 02:59 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm pretty sure Ska was just disagreeing with your opinion.
Pretty much. 

I mean, that entire post reminded me of those Scott Pilgrim arguments years back when people tried to blame Ramona Flowers for everything that happened because "Scott Pilgrim is a naive idiot. He didn't know any better." Except for the whole matter that one of the major themes of Scott Pilgrim is that Scott has to accept responsibility for his own shittiness in order to move forward and become a better person.

David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did; Yes, Farouk absolutely took avantage of the situation, but I agree with Superlaser that all he really needed to do was push Syd into a direction that, arguably, the show had been setting up since the first season: That David wasn't entirely a good person.
 I think all Marvel films are okay. This is my design.

Except for Thor 2: the literal worst.
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(06-14-2018, 10:09 PM)ska oreo Wrote: David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did ... David wasn't entirely a good person.

I dunno ... having serious mental illnesses that prevent one from discerning reality (kind of how I feel as I've watched the second season of this show) or being able to interpret their actions as moral or immoral tend to be a pretty good reason for absolving/excusing antisocial behavior ...
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That facet of his personality sitting in the wheelchair repeating "I am a good person. I deserve to be loved." was sad but once we learned it was a delusion that allowed David to "act" like a hero and draw Syd to him it becomes more sinister than we could ever imagine.

Then of course he does the mind wipe on Syd and rapes her without a second thought. Once the delusion finally shatters (literally) we are left with inescapable conclusion that we now see the real David for the first time.
Originally Posted by ImmortanNick 

Saw Batman v Superman.
Now I know what it's like to see Nickelback in concert.

That's my review.
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Up until this last episode, I thought it was either a bug in the show, or my own faulty memory/inattention to substance once it became apparent that the style was king, that I couldn’t remember David ever doing anything all that heroic or really nice to warrant our sympathy.
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Well, from his point of view (and ours initially) he was a good person.
Originally Posted by ImmortanNick 

Saw Batman v Superman.
Now I know what it's like to see Nickelback in concert.

That's my review.
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Right, but I had definitely noticed that I didn’t find David particularly like able, especially this year. But I put it down to how drowning them in a sea of style and thematics had rendered none of the characters all that consistent or relatable, rather than a deliberate course the narrative was plotting.
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(06-14-2018, 10:27 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:09 PM)ska oreo Wrote: David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did ... David wasn't entirely a good person.

I dunno ... having serious mental illnesses that prevent one from discerning reality (kind of how I feel as I've watched the second season of this show) or being able to interpret their actions as moral or immoral tend to be a pretty good reason for absolving/excusing antisocial behavior ...

Sort of. I mean, we do institutionalize those people when they become a danger to themselves and/or others. Which was what Syd was saying they needed to do to David.
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(06-14-2018, 04:25 PM)Mangy Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 02:59 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm pretty sure Ska was just disagreeing with your opinion.

(06-15-2018, 01:04 PM)Fafhrd Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:27 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:09 PM)ska oreo Wrote: David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did ... David wasn't entirely a good person.

I dunno ... having serious mental illnesses that prevent one from discerning reality (kind of how I feel as I've watched the second season of this show) or being able to interpret their actions as moral or immoral tend to be a pretty good reason for absolving/excusing antisocial behavior ...

Sort of. I mean, we do institutionalize those people when they become a danger to themselves and/or others. Which was what Syd was saying they needed to do to David.

After trying to murder him.
I'm still avian.
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I was looking over who wrote which episodes of Legion season two, and I learned of something pretty weird. During the episodes we have title cards. There is a Chapter 10 title card and a chapter 12 title card, but no chapter 11.

What happened in Chapter 11? I think there are other missing chapters as well, but I got tired of the exercise.

I wonder if this references the "1+1 equals 11" speech from Jemaine earlier in the season. Kind of fourth wall breaking if so.
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(06-15-2018, 01:08 PM)thecooleravian Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 04:25 PM)Mangy Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 02:59 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm pretty sure Ska was just disagreeing with your opinion.

(06-15-2018, 01:04 PM)Fafhrd Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:27 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:09 PM)ska oreo Wrote: David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did ... David wasn't entirely a good person.

I dunno ... having serious mental illnesses that prevent one from discerning reality (kind of how I feel as I've watched the second season of this show) or being able to interpret their actions as moral or immoral tend to be a pretty good reason for absolving/excusing antisocial behavior ...

Sort of. I mean, we do institutionalize those people when they become a danger to themselves and/or others. Which was what Syd was saying they needed to do to David.

After trying to murder him.

Here's the thing, I don't think you're necessarily wrong that the actions by Syd and the others exacerbated the problem and forced David to turn. The problem is: I don't necessarily believe that David is blameless in all of this nor do I believe that Farouk completely manipulated everyone into turning on David. These feelings were already in the air, almost immediately when David came back from his year-long absence.  And even if we agree that this was all part of Farouk's plan, it doesn't explain away the rape, nor does it explain away the questionable actions David has done all season. 

I don't think the ending of season 2 is trying to say that Division 3 is in the right for their actions against David, this was just the inevitable conclusion of what this entire season has been on about.  And I think we can longer view Legion as a, flashy, sometimes pretentious, superhero tale but instead a flash, sometimes pretentious, character study about increasingly complex characters that cannot be divided into simple "good or evil" categories.
 I think all Marvel films are okay. This is my design.

Except for Thor 2: the literal worst.
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(06-16-2018, 03:38 AM)ska oreo Wrote:
(06-15-2018, 01:08 PM)thecooleravian Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 04:25 PM)Mangy Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 02:59 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: But you're right, it's the internet, it's what people do, I shouldn't let it bother me.
I'm pretty sure Ska was just disagreeing with your opinion.

(06-15-2018, 01:04 PM)Fafhrd Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:27 PM)Overlord Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:09 PM)ska oreo Wrote: David being mentally ill doesn't absolve him for any of the terrible things he did ... David wasn't entirely a good person.

I dunno ... having serious mental illnesses that prevent one from discerning reality (kind of how I feel as I've watched the second season of this show) or being able to interpret their actions as moral or immoral tend to be a pretty good reason for absolving/excusing antisocial behavior ...

Sort of. I mean, we do institutionalize those people when they become a danger to themselves and/or others. Which was what Syd was saying they needed to do to David.

After trying to murder him.

Here's the thing, I don't think you're necessarily wrong that the actions by Syd and the others exacerbated the problem and forced David to turn. The problem is: I don't necessarily believe that David is blameless in all of this nor do I believe that Farouk completely manipulated everyone into turning on David. These feelings were already in the air, almost immediately when David came back from his year-long absence.  And even if we agree that this was all part of Farouk's plan, it doesn't explain away the rape, nor does it explain away the questionable actions David has done all season. 

I don't think the ending of season 2 is trying to say that Division 3 is in the right for their actions against David, this was just the inevitable conclusion of what this entire season has been on about.  And I think we can longer view Legion as a, flashy, sometimes pretentious, superhero tale but instead a flash, sometimes pretentious, character study about increasingly complex characters that cannot be divided into simple "good or evil" categories.

Insofar as I can get a read on the show, I'd say everyone is in the wrong; either mentally ill(/evil?), incredibly foolish, or viciously amoral, and all for the sake of making the current 'what a TWEEST' story work. And I'm just not interested in watching a show where everyone is such a bastard (to the point of both the male and female leads being rapists) and the narrative doesn't seem to realize it. Something like The Wolf of Wall Street will have most everyone being idiotic assholes too, but it will find a way to be entertaining about it and to make a larger point. So for me, it's a character study that doesn't work. But if you are enjoying it, I don't want to seem like I'm trying to badger you into hating it; I hope the road it's going down keeps working out for you.
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I don't know how you can say that the narrative doesn't realize its own moral ambiguity when a major proponent of the show is the flaws, or delusions, that each character has being brought to the forefront. This entire season has actively complicate the good vs. evil dynamic by makings its characters extremely flawed. Perhaps the only two characters who are pretty much upfront about who they are are Kary "I'll stab death in the heart" loudermilk and Farouk.

I get that this isn't going to be everyone's cup of tea, nor am i trying to insult you for not liking it. But I"ve always believed that it's far more important to have empathy for characters rather than sympathize. I think if you can create well-written characters, you can push them however far you need them to go. That's how you keep it from simply being "edgy;" you understand where everyone is coming from despite the fact that you might disagree with them. But honestly, I like that Legion is difficult. I like that Legion in uncompromising in where it wants to go that a typical superhero story can't. And trusting Hawley feels incredibly rewarding when we get to the end game. I'm so excited for S3 because I legitmately have no idea where this story is going to go and that makes me excited.
 I think all Marvel films are okay. This is my design.

Except for Thor 2: the literal worst.
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I watched most of this season and it hasn't been doing anything for me. IMO its just weird for the sake of being weird. I have no desire to watch the finale.
I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is that I have lost my way. The good news is that I'm way ahead of schedule.
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(06-16-2018, 10:54 PM)chaz Wrote: I watched most of this season and it hasn't been doing anything for me. IMO its just weird for the sake of being weird.

Said perfectly, and perfectly said.
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