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The Democratic Party Going Forward
#36
A[quote name="El ahrairah" url="/community/t/155122/the-democratic-party-going-forward/30#post_4069633"]

...I don't see much of a difference here [/quote]
That is why you fail...
Undecided

Have fun voting for Trump....
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#37

....and I happened to notice this just a little while ago.



BUSTED: Trump-loving comment trolls pose as Sanders and Clinton supporters to divide Democrats



There's a link in the above article to the 4chan posts in question (I'm not going to include a link to that forum here) and given the nature of the source, take this story with a grain of salt.



That said, if ever this kind of thing would be occurring, it's certainly this election season.

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#38
AAmateurs. Nixon would have sent his guys to burn an orphanage to the ground while dressed in Sanders and Clinton campaign t-shirts.
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#39
A[quote name="Reasor" url="/community/t/155122/the-democratic-party-going-forward/30#post_4069918"]Amateurs. Nixon would have sent his guys to burn an orphanage to the ground while dressed in Sanders and Clinton campaign t-shirts.[/quote]

It is only May....
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#40
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post


That is why you fail...
Undecided

Have fun voting for Trump....


Sanders you mean?



The ironic thing is Trump is now beating Hillary in almost every poll. Its been a slow gain, but we knew if he kept gaining it would happen. Of course, while Sanders margin has decreased, he still beats Trump by impressive double figures.



So like i said. I will vote for the person who is an actual progressive, who is actually honest, who has no scandals or corruption surrounding him and who could actually hand Trumps ass to him in an election, instead of failing and giving Trump the presidency. Which is what will happen if Hillary is the candidate.



Im not sure why, but the thing you seem to have a very hard time understanding (i imagine its for bubble reasons) is that at the end of the day Trumps rhetoric, while absolutely deplorable and disgusting, is only rhetoric. Hillary Clinton's scandals, FBI investigation, corruption of the democratic party, is very, very, very real. Trump (while its a safe assumption) we can only assume will sell even more of our nation to the highest bidding corporations. Hillary, its unquestionable if she will do this or not. We know she will, shes said she will.

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#41
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post

If Bernie supporters act like children, and don't vote for Clinton, or even worse, vote for Trump, then all you're doing is making Bernie's last term in the senate totally irrelevant. He'll be the one to take all the blame for Trump. Nothing he proposes will ever pass the senate, because even the democrats will block his bills. You would basically be dooming his legacy.



So is this one of those fake Sanders supporters mentioned above?


I ask because Sanders supporters tend to understand that they are voting for policy, not a letter next to a name.


They also tend to understand what can be achieved through the supreme court and executive orders.



You can call people "childish" for not supporting Clinton all you want. But some of us have morals and expectations and absolutely will not support the person who helped corrupt the democratic party in the first fucking place.

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#42

Yeah, I'm not a fake Sanders supporter. Feel free to check my post history. But you failed to address the larger issue, which is that Sanders himself will vote for, and caucus with the democrats in Senate. He'll be able to work within a Clinton administration and propose progressive bills, and rally his troops to put pressure on Clinton and other senate dems to support him. But if Sanders supporters vote in Trump then Bernie will be worthless in the senate. Nothing he proposes will pass, and he'll be blamed for everything.



The smart thing to do is vote for Clinton in the general election. Give her a year and change to show if she's as corrupt as we all think. If so, stay home in 2018, and she will lose the mid-terms, and then we can launch a progressive primary campaign in 2020 to make her a one term president.

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#43
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

Yeah, I'm not a fake Sanders supporter. Feel free to check my post history. But you failed to address the larger issue, which is that Sanders himself will vote for, and caucus with the democrats in Senate. He'll be able to work within a Clinton administration and propose progressive bills, and rally his troops to put pressure on Clinton and other senate dems to support him. But if Sanders supporters vote in Trump then Bernie will be worthless in the senate. Nothing he proposes will pass, and he'll be blamed for everything.




The larger issue is not Sanders voters, voting for Trump. More will write in Sanders in a primary election then vote for Trump. The majority will simply not vote or vote Clinton.


Me personally i will not vote for whoever the GOP would put in (of the 16, Trump or not) or the alternative democrat option, i cannot vote for the most corrupt democrat in Washington right now. I have standards and principals, and i dont vote because of a letter next to someone's name. I would just as easily support a conservative if they made more sense than Hillary and was a real conservative not an establishment republican like everyone we see running in the GOP lately... and Hillary Clinton who of course is far more moderate corporate republican than democrat.



The larger issue is impacting the system even if a Bernie presidency fails.




Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post


The smart thing to do is vote for Clinton in the general election. Give her a year and change to show if she's as corrupt as we all think. If so, stay home in 2018, and she will lose the mid-terms, and then we can launch a progressive primary campaign in 2020 to make her a one term president.





This is why i felt that comment about fake Sanders supporters was more aimed at you.


If you are a Sanders supporter, then you should understand why you are voting for him. Which is the attempt at changing a corrupt and bought political system. You'd know that this wait and see game you seem to want to have with Clinton, should have been already destroyed in your mind. She is as corrupt as it gets. We dont need to wait and see. How much more corrupt do you think she can be dude? She helped her husband triangulate the democratic party and sell it to corporate republicans thus creating the one party corruption problem we face. The email scandal. The secret supporting of a coup against the Honduras government. Her and her little buddies in the DNC have been doing nothing but rigging the democratic process as this thing continues.. what more do you need to see? Dont sit here and attempt to patronize people who refuse to vote for this disgusting monster simply because you want to ignore the reality of the situation.




And a reminder.... Clinton will most likely be indited before the general election. As she should be given what she pulled.

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#44

It's interesting seeing this from a UK perspective, because the Sanders phenomenon seems quite similar to the push that put the old school stalwart leftist Jeremy Corbyn in charge of Labour last year. A kind of grassroots shot at elevating someone with principles and ideals over the slick compromising candidates that had become standard, and one that actually worked.



I guess the difference to me is, Labour really needed to hit the reset button at that point because the wheels had fallen off the New Labour bus and the moderate Tory-lite approach wasn't getting anyone anywhere. I'm sure they'll inch back to the centre eventually but however Corbyn works out in the long term, getting back to their roots and appointing someone like him was probably a necessary step for the party at that moment.



The thing about the Democrats is, to my eyes it doesn't seem like they're in the kind of desperate state that necessitates a drastic change in direction. Admittedly I haven't followed everything Obama has done, but from this overseas perspective it seems like he's kept a cool head and tried to steer things in the right direction, with at least a moderate amount of success. From what I gather his approval ratings are doing well and he seems to be quite well regarded on the whole. This seems to me like odd timing for a fuck-the-system call for revolution.



Given that his biggest problem seems to be obstruction from the other side, to my mind the sensible thing would be to play the long game, solidify around what Obama was doing, try to secure a solid win while the Republicans are in a fractured state and then work from there. I know the polls supposedly show Sanders has better odds than Clinton against Trump (something I can't help but find hard to swallow) but my feeling is putting forward a strident ideologue like Sanders right now would be an unnecessary gamble with the potential to backfire badly, either in November or in four years time.



Clinton to me would seem like a fairly sensible choice to do what I suggested above if not for all the baggage. A lot of people seem to have a visceral hate for that woman, and even though I keep hearing about how tough and resilient she is, so far she doesn't seem to be doing a terribly effective job at building a counter-narrative against the attacks from both left and right. Maybe someone else would've been a better pick, but I'm not convinced the only or best alternative is Sanders.

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#45

Sanders as the nominee could be a gamble in an ordinary election against a more centrist, well-liked GOP opponent, but I think he would stand better chance against Trump than many realize.  Throughout the race for the Democratic nomination, he has outperformed Clinton among independents, a group that Democrats will need this November, and I can't imagine Trump besting him among young voters.  Some pundits are arguing that Sanders would unravel the moment GOP attack ads started to red-bait him with the dreaded "C word", but if Sanders managed to define himself early in the race and stay on message, the impact of that would not likely be large enough to derail his campaign.

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#46

Every poll has Sanders destroying Trump.


Where-as Clinton is now losing in the majority of polls. And its because people dont trust her, we know far too much about her and the things she has done. I mean for Christ's sake, the email shit is so bad on her end, it ended up making Fox News look good and almost honest (at least, far more than her).  Hell, i dont listen to the man, but im willing to bet Rush Limbaugh looks better than she does on this subject.

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#47
Quote:
Originally Posted by El ahrairah View Post
 

The larger issue is not Sanders voters, voting for Trump. More will write in Sanders in a primary election then vote for Trump. The majority will simply not vote or vote Clinton.


Me personally i will not vote for whoever the GOP would put in (of the 16, Trump or not) or the alternative democrat option, i cannot vote for the most corrupt democrat in Washington right now. I have standards and principals, and i dont vote because of a letter next to someone's name. I would just as easily support a conservative if they made more sense than Hillary and was a real conservative not an establishment republican like everyone we see running in the GOP lately... and Hillary Clinton who of course is far more moderate corporate republican than democrat.



The larger issue is impacting the system even if a Bernie presidency fails.



This is why i felt that comment about fake Sanders supporters was more aimed at you.


If you are a Sanders supporter, then you should understand why you are voting for him. Which is the attempt at changing a corrupt and bought political system. You'd know that this wait and see game you seem to want to have with Clinton, should have been already destroyed in your mind. She is as corrupt as it gets. We dont need to wait and see. How much more corrupt do you think she can be dude? She helped her husband triangulate the democratic party and sell it to corporate republicans thus creating the one party corruption problem we face. The email scandal. The secret supporting of a coup against the Honduras government. Her and her little buddies in the DNC have been doing nothing but rigging the democratic process as this thing continues.. what more do you need to see? Dont sit here and attempt to patronize people who refuse to vote for this disgusting monster simply because you want to ignore the reality of the situation.




And a reminder.... Clinton will most likely be indited before the general election. As she should be given what she pulled.



You keep missing the main point man. Let's say she's not indicted. Let's say it's Trump vs Clinton in a general. That's your choice. Plus Green party, plus Libertarian, plus just stay home.



Out of those 5 choices, which choice will result in the best chance that progressive policies that Bernie is fighting for will actually manifest? It's fine to be idealistic, but even when we acknowledge the rampant corruption of the DNC, and a lot of congressional democrats, how else can you make changes, other than to work within the system. Bernie and his grassroots team are trying to elect other progressives. So that they can have a progressive coalition in both houses. The only real way either of those progressive wings will have power is under a democratic president. Period.



Do you have anything to say in response to that? We can sit here and agree about how much Clinton sucks. Okay. Then what?



I know a lot of people will make the argument that we should vote for Clinton because of the supreme court. And that's kind of fair. She'll probably elect centrists who are socially liberal but fiscally conservative. But that's better than the nutcases Trump will put up. But the main argument is that all the progressives that are running to be congressman will be worthless under Trump. The entire grassroots movement is an effort to replace corrupt democrats with progressive democrats. But what's the point of doing all of that unless there's also a democratic president?

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#48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco Senior View Post
 

Sanders as the nominee could be a gamble in an ordinary election against a more centrist, well-liked GOP opponent, but I think he would stand better chance against Trump than many realize.  Throughout the race for the Democratic nomination, he has outperformed Clinton among independents, a group that Democrats will need this November, and I can't imagine Trump besting him among young voters.  Some pundits are arguing that Sanders would unravel the moment GOP attack ads started to red-bait him with the dreaded "C word", but if Sanders managed to define himself early in the race and stay on message, the impact of that would not likely be large enough to derail his campaign.


I think people underestimate Trump's savvy. Like I saw this interview the other day where he walks back on most of the stuff he's been spitting and comes across as pretty affable. Now he's won the race I suspect he's not going to spend the next six months dishing out reactionary rhetoric but turning on the salesman charm and trying to woo people. He might turn out to be good at that.



Clinton clearly knows her stuff but I'm not convinced of her ability to charm and woo the public, or to deflect the inevitable attacks on her history, some of which might have some substance. As for Sanders, I dunno. In terms of policy he seems to just wheel out the same soundbites on his pet topics every time I hear him speak. He defaults to this accusatory, borderline spiteful tone that I'm betting is more effective for scolding those on his own side than those who directly oppose him. A one on one Sanders vs Trump debate would be a curious spectacle indeed.

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#49
AEl ahrairah, I have a couple follow up questions:

1) Do you have standards and/or principles?
2) Do you think you will ever vote for the letter next to a person's name?
3) Would you say Hilary is corrupt?
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#50

Gov. Terry McAuliffe is under federal investigation for campaign contributions:



http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/natio...story.html



Quote:

A McAuliffe spokesman referred questions to lawyer Marc Elias, who said in a statement: "We cannot confirm the CNN report. Neither the Governor nor his former campaign has knowledge of this matter, but as reported, contributions to the campaign from Mr. Wang were completely lawful. The Governor will certainly cooperate with the government if he is contacted about it."



McAuliffe -- a longtime ally of Bill and Hillary Clinton and a prolific fundraiser -- worked as an unpaid director for the Clinton Foundation until he was elected governor. The official said the inquiry includes McAuliffe's time on the board. Neither the Clinton Foundation nor leading Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton is a target of the probe.

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#51
A.
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#52
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post


But what's the point of doing all of that unless there's also a democratic president?



I didnt miss your point at all.


And i think this sentence sums up your own lack of recognition of whats being said.


The people who refuse to vote for Clinton or who are progressive and would rather see Trump win because of the fallout and chaos within the republican party it would cause, also do not view Clinton as a democrat. Just because she has that D next to her name does not erase her siding with republicans four of five times. It does not escape her corruption that youd be hard pressed to match be it republican or democrat.


So when you say something like "Clinton as a democrat would listen to progressives and be in a better position to put progressive ideas forward", we say, given her factual history we have no reason to think this, none, none at all. She has back-stabbed the democratic party every single chance shes been given, why someone would think that pattern of behavior would change when elected is beyond me.


And i will give some merit to the idea that yes, she probably would do a better job of putting more moderate people in place and possibly more moderate bills. But these people would still be corporate shills and do none of the things we need to address, and it wont fix anything and instead just reinforce a corrupt democratic party.


Its a multitude of issues but at the end of the day can easily be summed up as, progressives not voting for the very person who helped create the problem we face within the democratic party, to have hope that she would some how switch gears or allow for gears to be switched within our government, is absurd and extremely naive.



Jimmy Dore of TYT actually makes a solid argument (while i do not fully subscribe to it simply because correlation and causation have not been connected, but it is enticing) that we should look at what happened after Bush. Bush was such a bad president that the results of that was us electing a black man with a Muslim name who ran on ultra progressive ideas. People thought they were electing Bernie. Now they have a chance to, but because Obama a democrat, turned out to be a shill, its helped poison the well. And now we have people, over half the democratic party, supporting the most republican person running, often for the most absurd reasons.

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#53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

El ahrairah, I have a couple follow up questions:

1) Do you have standards and/or principles?
2) Do you think you will ever vote for the letter next to a person's name?
3) Would you say Hilary is corrupt?


1. No, clearly not. Im just supporting the one person who would actively go after citizens united and who would actually attempt to change our system from within. Without compromise i might add. Without the desire to take part in a system that if he was not elected as the democratic representative, would not take part in choosing lung cancer over throat cancer..... "Oh but throat cancer can be cured in five more different ways than lung! Take the throat!"



2. I have. And im old enough to have learned from this mistake.



3. Its not an opinion, its a fact. Hillary Clinton is not a mystery to the world, we know who she is and the things she has done. We have forty years of her being in some kind of political spotlight and/or office. We know the things she has done, its not a question, its not an opinion.

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#54

If the whole crux of your argument is, "we'll punish the world by showing them just how evil a republican can be, and they'll come running to us progressives to save them in 2020" then you've lost the argument. It is predicated on an assumption that millions of people will take away the same lesson you want them to. It is predicated on the idea that something monumentally awful will happen (9/11, Iraq War, Hurricane Katrina) and that it will show the ineptitude of the GOP.



But the main issue I have with it is that it's so fucking callous. You're essentially saying, "yeah, some poor people are probably gonna have to die in wars and natural disasters in order to wake the world up"



Your philosophy is exactly as corrupt as Clinton's. You'd be willing to sell out the lives of innocent human beings so your political revolution can profit. Why would anyone support a political revolution willing to let terrible things happen just to prove a point. Clue: you're not actually a progressive. You're an anarchist. Adults work within the system to make change. Children like you and Trump just want to blow shit up.

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#55
Quote:

Originally Posted by El ahrairah View Post



2. I have. And im old enough to have learned from this mistake.



Just how old are you, and how many elections have you participated in? Just curious.

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#56

FWIW-



Quote:

El-ahrairah:



A rabbit trickster folk hero, who is the protagonist of nearly all of the rabbits' stories. He represents what every rabbit wants to be: smart, devious, tricky, and devoted to the well-being of his warren. A complex folklore was created around him in both Watership Down and Tales from Watership Down. In Lapine, his name is a contraction of the phrase Elil-Hrair-Rah, meaning "prince with a thousand enemies


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wa...an_rabbits




Do we have the leporine Karl Rove in our midst ...?? 



: /

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#57
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 


Just how old are you, and how many elections have you participated in? Just curious.



My first vote was for Bill Clinton's second term.

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#58
Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
 

FWIW-




Do we have the leporine Karl Rove in our midst ...?? 



: /



I think you're trying to look too far into a good name from one of the best books ever written.

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#59
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

If the whole crux of your argument is, "we'll punish the world by showing them just how evil a republican can be, and they'll come running to us progressives to save them in 2020" then you've lost the argument. It is predicated on an assumption that millions of people will take away the same lesson you want them to. It is predicated on the idea that something monumentally awful will happen (9/11, Iraq War, Hurricane Katrina) and that it will show the ineptitude of the GOP.



But the main issue I have with it is that it's so fucking callous. You're essentially saying, "yeah, some poor people are probably gonna have to die in wars and natural disasters in order to wake the world up"



Your philosophy is exactly as corrupt as Clinton's. You'd be willing to sell out the lives of innocent human beings so your political revolution can profit. Why would anyone support a political revolution willing to let terrible things happen just to prove a point. Clue: you're not actually a progressive. You're an anarchist. Adults work within the system to make change. Children like you and Trump just want to blow shit up.



WOW, you took that one pretty far.


Hey tell me, of Trump and Clinton, which one voted for every recent war and helped with a coup that has devastated a country?


Again, not supporting Trump, but this argument youre making is horse shit. You seem to really want to ignore reality and pretend that Trumps rhetroic some how matches Clintons history, doing the things, youre claiming youre terrified of Trump doing. In what world does this make sense?



I get not wanting to vote for Trump but it makes no sense to then suggest Clinton is some how a better option, when your list of fears of what Trump would do, are things Hillary Clinton has already actively done and continues to do.


It really does not even matter what the topic is either. War? Hillary is a war hawk.


Race issues? Hillary has contributed to some of the worst crime bills we've ever seen. Gay rights? Until the nation was 60%+ supportive of gay rights, this woman did everything in her power to stop it.


Schools and educators? Screwed them.


Bankruptcy laws? Fucked the middle class.


Sold the democratic party to wall street? Check.


Secretly helped to overthrow a government, while publicly refusing to remove their funds, so said corrupt government could simply stomp out anyone opposing them. Done.



This may be an issue of semantics due to the fact that Trump has never held public office, but we know 100% what Hillary has done and will do and as much as i dislike Trump and absolutely hate to see the billionaire class get its first peer in the white house, at least a 10% chance he is a wild card. Which is more than the best GOP representative, Hillary. Its a horrible truth, but your worst fantasies of Trump is Hilary's reality.



You want me to keep going on and on about Clinton and the things we know she has done and brings to the table?


I dont want to hear shit from you about being concerned with people, while you support this horrible excuse for a human being, a human being who has actively arranged a set up and "disposal" of anyone opposing a corrupt government. And who actively supported that Iraq war you hate so much.

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#60

The entire point of the Sanders campaign is a political revolution. You seem to support that. If he can't win the nomination, then that means that the revolution will have to be continued by him in the senate, and by all the progressive members of the senate, and congress. Those people, Sanders, and the progressives will have a better chance to push forward progressive bills with President Clinton, then they would under President Trump. That's it. That's the entire crux of my argument. And it's a fucking good one.



If Trump wins, then he'll elect 2-3 supreme court picks which will destroy the progressive agenda for 30 years. He will validate hatred. Muslims and minorities in America will suffer. LGBT community will suffer. Regulations trying to protect the environment will suffer. People who depend on the ACA might go back to being uninsured. Minimum wages won't go up. And who the fuck knows what else.



And you'd be willing to live in that America, all so you can punish crooked Hilary? Because you're not punishing her. She'll be fine either way. She has hundreds of millions of dollars. The only people you'll be punishing are average people who will see their quality of life suffer. Be a man. You want to change the system, join the political revolution. Find out if there are any berniecrats running for office in your district or state, work for them. Raise money for them. Do your part to get as many progressives elected into office as you can. But don't claim to be a supporter of Sanders and then fuck over all of those people with a republican president.

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#61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

And you'd be willing to live in that America, all so you can punish crooked Hilary? Because you're not punishing her. She'll be fine either way. She has hundreds of millions of dollars. The only people you'll be punishing are average people who will see their quality of life suffer. Be a man. You want to change the system, join the political revolution. Find out if there are any berniecrats running for office in your district or state, work for them. Raise money for them. Do your part to get as many progressives elected into office as you can. But don't claim to be a supporter of Sanders and then fuck over all of those people with a republican president.



Punish Hillary? Seriously?


This is why you have this massive disconnect and don't understand the problem.


This is the bullshit mentality that leads you to value Trumps rhetoric more than Hillary's record. Because for you, you think its about "punishing" Hillary, its not at all about the fact that every single concern you have with Trump that he has never actually done in this world, Hillary has. In your world that might make sense, in my world where ive learned from my mistakes and where i wont excuse or ignore one person's actions because i dislike the other person, it makes no sense.



I doubt it makes sense to you either, but youve convinced yourself its about punishing Hillary right? Or like the other guy thinks, its undercovers from 4chan or something? The reality of it, you cannot reconcile. You want to think Hillary will be better because in a situation of corporate democrat versus corporate republican, the democrats are better. But you're dismissing how corrupt Hillary actually is and youre dismissing that we dont have to make that choice.


And me personally? Im not going to make that choice. If i get cancer, dont ask me what kind i want. Either i get it and deal with it or i dont. But dont ask me to pick and choose which cancer i want if my vote of "not having cancer" fails.

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#62

I'm not defending or ignoring Clinton's past. That's why I'm a Sanders supporter. But if you're going to pretend that Clinton is as bad as Trump, or maybe even worse, then you've already invalidated anything else you might have to say. Clinton may be a shitty person who I disagree with, who has made terrible choices, and has terrible friends. But Trump is literally a cancer. His rhetoric leads to white supremacists finally thinking they have a guy who speaks to them. His actions leads to people beating up homeless Hispanic guys saying "Trump is right, the Mexicans gotta go."



You're hopeless.

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#63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

I'm not defending or ignoring Clinton's past. That's why I'm a Sanders supporter. But if you're going to pretend that Clinton is as bad as Trump, or maybe even worse, then you've already invalidated anything else you might have to say. Clinton may be a shitty person who I disagree with, who has made terrible choices, and has terrible friends. But Trump is literally a cancer. His rhetoric leads to white supremacists finally thinking they have a guy who speaks to them. His actions leads to people beating up homeless Hispanic guys saying "Trump is right, the Mexicans gotta go."



You're hopeless.



You are absolutely ignoring and defending her past.


You literally just suggested this fantastical future of Trump as president and how bad it would be, without recognizing that Hillary Clinton has actively been a part of committing all those acts you're fearful of Trump possibly doing. And btw, Trumps friends, were the Clinton's before he ran.

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#64

You keep missing the only salient point. The progressives in congress and in the senate can have influence with a democratic president. They will have none with Trump.



That's it. Forget Clinton. Forget Trump. They both suck. One has a proven history of sucking. One says a lot of troubling things that imply he'll suck even worse.



I want actual progressives to have power. Okay. Under which president will Bernie Sanders have more power? Under Trump or Clinton? Under which president will Elizabeth Warren have more power? Under Trump or Clinton?

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#65
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

You keep missing the only salient point. The progressives in congress and in the senate can have influence with a democratic president. They will have none with Trump.



That's it. Forget Clinton. Forget Trump. They both suck. One has a proven history of sucking. One says a lot of troubling things that imply he'll suck even worse.



I want actual progressives to have power. Okay. Under which president will Bernie Sanders have more power? Under Trump or Clinton? Under which president will Elizabeth Warren have more power? Under Trump or Clinton?



I addressed that "point". And its not a very good one. You keep trying to put this narrative forward while ignoring that when in power Clinton is a republican. You're going by hoping someone with a D next to their name will for some reason, all the sudden start listening to or supporting people with nearly opposite values and ideas then herself.



You keep wanting to ignore the reality of the scenario for some "hope" and this weird, unfounded equation that all the sudden we will have progressives in office that a clear republican party member who has zero history of being a progressive, will for some reason value. How have you not figured out that Clinton is as bad as Trump when it comes to rhetoric? She will tell you what you want to hear until she has power and a choice to make, then she sides with corporations, war and "evil" deeds. Every fucking time.

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#66

Okay, you have nothing left to say other than Clinton is the worst person ever, and we're all idiots for thinking that she'll be any better than Trump, who might not be as crazy as he sounds. Cool.



What policies of Bernie's do you support by the way?

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#67
Quote:

Originally Posted by El ahrairah View Post
 

And me personally? Im not going to make that choice. If i get cancer, dont ask me what kind i want. Either i get it and deal with it or i dont. But dont ask me to pick and choose which cancer i want if my vote of "not having cancer" fails.



This is stupid.  In a hypothetical where I'm getting cancer either way, I absolutely want to pick which one I get. I'd be a moron not to.

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#68
Heh, i think you took that too literally.
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#69

El ahrairah,



Here's a quote from you, back in January:



"American's should have zero fear of this happening. Me person i feel we should allow every single refugee into the country (To quote Lebron. Not 3, 4, or 5, 6.....  Every single one of them). Our country was founded on people escaping religious persecution and that is whats happening here. "



Do you still believe that? Is that belief of yours going to have a better chance of happening under Clinton or Trump?



And from another post, it says you live in Florida. Have you heard of Tim Canova? He's the guy running to unseat Debbie Wasserman Schultz from her seat in congress. You can research him and maybe donate money or phonebank or canvass. He's an intelligent and progressive lawyer who'll be a great addition to congress.

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#70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
 

Okay, you have nothing left to say other than Clinton is the worst person ever



No. Ive said she is the single most corrupt democrat you can find, possibly politician. And its because she is a corporatist republican, masquerading as a democrat and even worse now, as a progressive. And apparently she has people who believe her.



Why is it you keep wanting to sum things up in some overly simplified way, but wont address the reality of Clinton as a politician?


Why are you concerned with what i support from Sanders?


Why do you keep wanting to go this route without addressing the fact that Trumps disgusting rhetoric is imperially better than Clinton's political record?

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