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What the fuck!? The thread formally known as "I haven't heard a single compelling reason for Britain to leave the EU."
That's probably, and sadly, true. Politics Home has taken down his "obnoxious bigots" article , he's recently joined twitter, and clearly has been taking PR lessons.

Like watching a slow motion car crash where you're trapped in the backseat and the child locks are on.

FWIW

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexiti...government
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I've been trying to pay more attention to UK politics thanks to all this stuff, (by listening to James O'Brien roast people mostly, which might be a bit one eyed...) but I think my biggest takeaway, the thing I'm tired of the most is Brexit.
Not the UK leaving the EU, but the word Brexit. It's a godawful Sun headline chimera word that has no business being anywhere near a hansard or any official document . And now it's a permanent fixture of the great English language. Just terrible.
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Ha I was thinking that just the other day. I get that it's clunky to have to say "Britain's exit from the EU" every time, but "Brexit" is basically the geopolitical Brangelina.
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(07-20-2018, 07:12 AM)muzman Wrote: I've been trying to pay more attention to UK politics thanks to all this stuff, (by listening to James O'Brien roast people mostly, which might be a bit one eyed...) but I think my biggest takeaway, the thing I'm tired of the most is Brexit.
Not the UK leaving the EU, but the word Brexit.  It's a godawful Sun headline chimera word that has no business being anywhere near a hansard or any official document .  And now it's a permanent fixture of the great English language.  Just terrible.

I don't know. An ugly, tiresome, unnecessary word pretty much epitomises an ugly, tiresome, unnecessary endeavour. 

O'Brien is pretty good. Yes, he's very much part of the bubble, and sometimes he loses a grip on precision for the sake of rhetoric, but the balance of evidence based argument versus simple talking points is good and he will forever be a favourite of mine for being one of the few (maybe the only one) who successfully goaded Farage into showing his true colours.
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Just listened to this NPR/FreshAir interview...
Quote: Reporter Shows The Links Between The Men Behind Brexit And The Trump Campaign
The Guardian's Carole Cadwalladr's investigation into Cambridge Analytica's role in Brexit has led her to Russian connections and the Trump campaign. She says British investigators are now "working very closely with the FBI."


Quote:GROSS: So I want to bring up the name of another British figure who Americans are probably not familiar with but played a key role in the Brexit campaign and may be a link to Russia. And his name is Arron Banks. So tell us first what his role was in Brexit.

CADWALLADR:
So Arron Banks, he's a businessman based in Bristol, in the West Country here, and he's the bankroller of it. So Arron Banks gave more money towards the Brexit campaign than any other person in Britain. And he is this strange and - I wouldn't say strange character, but there's just so many questions. Essentially, we don't know where Arron Banks' money comes from. And that is a source of one other investigation into Britain. He's married to a Russian woman, Katya Banks.

One of the things we found out about Arron Banks, which I've reported on in the last sort of six weeks or so, is this close relationship that we have discovered with the Russian ambassador in London. Now, this is a direct link to the Mueller investigation because the Russian ambassador in London, he's called Ambassador Yakovenko, and he turned up in the Mueller indictments in November last year. So it was when George Papadopoulos got indicted. And all sorts of meetings and connections and relationships were uncovered in that, which ran through London. And one of the key people he met in London was Ambassador Yakovenko. And Ambassador Yakovenko is described by Mueller as a high-level contact between the Trump campaign in the Kremlin.

The one quote that jumped out-

Quote:CADWALLADR: That's right. People in America, I don't think, have realized this fully. And people in Britain certainly haven't realized this fully. But they overlap very, very distinctly. And, you know, one of the points we have in common with America is simply that our laws and our democracy was not prepared for what hit it in 2016. And by that, I mean because all of our laws were around sort of ensuring that our vote was free and fair in terms of a sort of 19th century model of how you run elections and how you control spending. And with the rise of the Internet, that just changed everything.
I used to be with "it", but then they changed what "it" was. Now, what I'm with isn't "it", and what's "it" seems weird and scary to me. -Grandpa Simpson
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I'm just still stunned that an actual country decided 51% on a vote was enough to dictate the most important policy decision of a generation. It's basically using a public opinion vote to enact constitutional changes. That's lunacy.

Maybe require a % high enough that the outcome won't be different based on the previous night's ads?
Gamertag: Tweakee
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(07-22-2018, 02:37 PM)farsight Wrote: I'm just still stunned that an actual country decided 51% on a vote was enough to dictate the most important policy decision of a generation. It's basically using a public opinion vote to enact constitutional changes. That's lunacy.

Maybe require a % high enough that the outcome won't be different based on the previous night's ads?

Oh it was a dumb thing to do to hold the referendum either way. But honestly, if it had come through with a majority wanting to leave the European Union and they didn't do it because it didn't reach a pre-ordained number, it would have just empowered the Brexiteers even more. We'd probably have been in the same situation in two or three years time.
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In the US, states have regular ballot measures for things like laws and taxes that require 51% votes... but anything that would alter the state/federal constitution requires a 67% vote.

So legalize weed? 51%. Pay for some new roads? 51%. But split the state in three parts? 67% because if you're going to do something crazy, you'd better -mean- it. 67% is, "HELL YES'. 51% is, 'Sure, I guess'.

I have to think that the Brexit vote tossed out a sizable number of pre-existing fundamental laws and policies. Punting the future of your country shouldn't be done on a shrug.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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I don't disagree. If Cameron (twat) had put that up front before calling it, things might have been different. Still, you're looking at a huge swathe of the country that suddenly says "We want out of the EU" and then the political party in charge ignoring that. It's unlikely that party would surive the next election either way. And it's possible the opposition would exploit that in turn.
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A lot can change in 2-3 years. You think Brexit would have had the same support after Trump got elected?
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Polls are meaningless, but after the complete shambles of the last two years... and it has been a COMPLETE mess, and with Trump and so forth, the polls still put Brexit support at about 40% with staying only a little bit higher. I dread to think what the state of things would have been if the politicians had just stood up to the result and said "No, it's a bad idea" and then everyone could have harped on about missed opportunities and so on.
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I wonder if someone can cut through the propaganda and educate those of us outside the UK on this story that Jeremy Corbyn is being accused of being some kind of anti-semite.  I'm having a hell of a time tracing it back to the beginning, to find out exactly how it got started.  

Is it just that he accurately pointed out that Israel is an apartheid state that lobbies the British and American governments to get the policies that it wants?  Is it something more?  Is he keeping company with people who are genuinely odious?  Do you think he's made some clumsy attempts to court Muslim votes by criticizing Israel, in lieu of policy proposals that would actually improve the lives of Muslims in the UK?

School me, if you're willing and able, and thanks in advance.  I'm just genuinely curious.  The race for the Prime Minister position is a fascinating one from where I'm sitting, and I care about how y'all are doing.
"Looking at the Trump administration, I'm starting to think I was too hard on the characters in Prometheus."  --  MrBananaGrabber
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This is nowhere near all of it but like the Republicans in the US, even if there's a good and genuine reason for the Conservatives to do or say anything, look for the most cynical and self-serving reason that you can find for why they're doing it first and consider any good incidental. Same rule applies here.

In this case, a party that has wrecked the UK for decades (most recently with this Brexit farrago) and have absolutely nothing to offer an increasingly desperate electorate are latching on this to attack their political opponents who might still have a chance of turfing them out of office. For all I know (I have to research on this too), there may be no/some/all truth to this accusation but they're not doing it out of any sense of decency or fair play whatsoever.
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That was essentially my guess, but I wondered if I was missing something.
"Looking at the Trump administration, I'm starting to think I was too hard on the characters in Prometheus."  --  MrBananaGrabber
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It’s one of those cases where two things can be true at the same time. It may well be the case that there are issues with anti-semitism in labour - I’ve seen anecdotal claims to that effect as well as dubious statements from Labour politicians, I certainly don’t feel qualified to say that there definitely *isn’t*.

But at the same time it’s obvious that this has been cynically settled on as the latest smear angle from Corbyn’s opponents on both the right and some of the centre, and they’re primed to milk it for all it’s worth even though Corbyn himself has done little wrong and denounced anti-semitism at every turn. I’m sure Conservatives and UKIPers are absolutely relishing watching Labour be the ones taking heat for racism for once.
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(08-01-2018, 03:40 PM)Reasor Wrote: That was essentially my guess, but I wondered if I was missing something.

Of course, two wrongs don't make a right, and whataboutism could lead to nothing being done about anything but there's a reason the Conservative Party in the UK (the Cons, the Tories) are called the Nasty Party. Well, several reasons and several less than complimentary names.

Namely a long history of racism and bigotry towards foreigners, black people, Asian people, people of other religions, Irish, Welsh, Scots, poor English people and yes, Jewish people (edit: and that's only a small amount of all the terrible things they've done). So, I find any attacks on Labour (which may well have a problem with this for all I know and it should be sorted out for sure if so) for this just a bit rich, especially coming from them. I suspect they don't really care about Jewish people at best despite this outrage on their behalf.

Also, I find people at best get awfully quiet when you ask them about racism (because that's what it is) towards black Jews from Ethiopia and elsewhere in Israel - from other Israelis among other people.

Funny how that happens.

(No, not really.)
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It might be a bit much to say the global Right are organised at the moment, but I'd happily go with tight-knit or incestuous as labels that explain the way things work. I say this because the Right wing meme of accusing the left of anti-semitism sprang up all over the place virtually at the same time. There was some grounds in some cases for sure, but I'd say it's mainly because being anti-Israel is at least an element in a lot of lefty groups (and so strongly held by some people that you could say the difference between being anti-israel and being anti-jewish is academic). It's just interesting that so many conservative pundits decided that was a potential vein to mine all at once and hit the occasional nugget and some fools gold they could sell regardless.

The poms really know how to do this stuff though. There were people ringing up the radio saying they were going to flee the UK if Corbyn was going to get in, or even come close. I've got to doubt if they were real, to be honest, but you never know. There are actual nazis giving broad support to the conservatives, aka the people in government, and despise Labour and everything it stands for. Corbyn maybe supports a mural he shouldn't and it's going to be Shoah 2.0? Really?


Anyway, thanks to all this we're all learning how complex trade is and I just watched this video of some blokes discussing it. One going to do well out of no-deal BRitain EXITing the EU and the other ...isn't. He's Ceiran the van driver of recent UK radio fame.
Interesting conversation (it's not a slug-fest as no one thinks this is a good idea)





The fun part for me is that there's nothing here to sway any Leavers. In fact the more complex it all becomes the more I expect they'll say "Well it shews what an uttor dis grace whole thing is. We shud 'ave nowt to do with EU or t' WTO" or something like that.
I'm not a total pessimist. I think such a situation could work itself out. But it might take decades and the carnage among all these EU dependent businesses...
A thought occured to me in that conversation, that you get the UK leaving the EU and without any trade deals in place. They've had a "revolution" of sorts and no one is willing or able to deal with them right now when they need it most. Many of their businesses dependent on old relationships are going to collapse and they need a sympathetic ear. Someone as truly liberated as they are now. Who can step into that void easily? Russia! Half their money is there already and I'm sure they'll make sure you're very, very good friends.

That's right; the UK is Cuba.
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I think their biggest fear is that if Corbyn gets in and the world doesn't end, then the floodgates will open to all sorts of candidates with ideas and policies that redistribute wealth even just a little to people who are poorer and need it more just for basic day to day living and we can't have that now, can we?

I'd find all this caterwauling about anti-Semitism a bit more convincing if it wasn't coming from people known to have backed actual fascists over the ages (and in many cases, probably still are!).

I mean, here we go.

https://splinternews.com/1828010559
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