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Trumpocalypse Now
#71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

   You may want to rethink calling Obama a scumbag.




...are you serious? The guy made it legal to kill Americans and launches drone strikes against hospitals. Trump is inheriting a surveillance state,  not creating one.



TRUMP is bad news, but the moral superiority that many seem to be standing on is delusional.

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#72
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojj View Post
 



...are you serious? The guy made it legal to kill Americans and launches drone strikes against hospitals. Trump is inheriting a surveillance state, he's not going to be creating it.




This is ridiculous. You DO know that the Surveillance state has been decades in the making, arguably going back to WWI?



I guess you prefer the good old days when GW Bush invaded countries rather than do surgical strikes. Or does your memory not stretch back that far?

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#73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 



This is ridiculous. You DO know that the Surveillance state has been decades in the making, arguably going back to WWI?



I guess you prefer the good old days when GW Bush invaded countries rather than do surgical strikes. Or does your memory not stretch back that far?



What was happening in those decades before was VASTLY different from what Clinton, Bush and then Obama created and nurtured.



BTW, we've seen no lack of boots on the ground and private military being sent into countries since Bush. I think the point is, and not to speak for the man, that these things need to stop and we need to completely reevaluate what we are doing. Murdering American citizens overseas is unacceptable. double tapping targets after medical arrives is unacceptable. Targeting nonmilitary targets is unacceptable. Allowing private military forces into country instead of our troops, is unacceptable. Giving arms to every side of a war or conflict, is unacceptable. It seems like Mojj is simply saying, this shit has got to change. Obama did not change it. Clinton would not have changed (she made it worse). So... thats that. We need to go in a different direction and not have people who will go the same direction with different tactics. We need to change the playbook.

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#74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 



I guess you prefer the good old days when GW Bush invaded countries rather than do surgical strikes. Or does your memory not stretch back that far?



 Of course Bush was a piece of shit. Why would I argue that? So was Clinton, who starved hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. My point is all these people are equally ugly.

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#75
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojj View Post
 


 Of course Bush was a piece of shit. Why would I argue that? So was Clinton, who starved hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children. My point is all these people are equally ugly.




No.

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#76

Hey, those people who are generally rational, accomplished, intelligent people did some monstrous shit in office!



Surely the already monstrous delusional ass wipe will perform better and avoid those same things!

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#77
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elahrairah View Post
 


What was happening in those decades before was VASTLY different from what Clinton, Bush and then Obama created and nurtured.



BTW, we've seen no lack of boots on the ground and private military being sent into countries since Bush. I think the point is, and not to speak for the man, that these things need to stop and we need to completely reevaluate what we are doing. Murdering American citizens overseas is unacceptable. double tapping targets after medical arrives is unacceptable. Targeting nonmilitary targets is unacceptable. Allowing private military forces into country instead of our troops, is unacceptable. Giving arms to every side of a war or conflict, is unacceptable. It seems like Mojj is simply saying, this shit has got to change. Obama did not change it. Clinton would not have changed (she made it worse). So... thats that. We need to go in a different direction and not have people who will go the same direction with different tactics. We need to change the playbook.



Waterboarding?  Somewhat acceptable?

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#78
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 


Waterboarding?  Somewhat acceptable?



No.


Torture is never acceptable.

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#79
A[quote name="Elahrairah" url="/community/t/156033/trumpocalypse-2016/60#post_4170583"]
No.
Torture is never acceptable.
[/quote]

Then why do you torture us by posting?
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#80
AThese people are not the same.
Regardless of US foreign policy and military action, which pretty much rolls with the times (See how intervention/invasion/surgical strike evolved during the Clinton-Bush-Obama period)' you can't compare Bush and Trump, born in the cradle of white privilege and elitism, to Obama's self made professional and political career.

And regarding Trump, I don't care if he does a good job, unites a fractured nation or whatever; the fact that a man with a story of economic failures, legal actions, misogyny and racism is the president of the USA is disgusting in every sense of the word.
The guy's business resume, personality and public record would make him ineligible for any position out there, and now he is president.
Him being elected is both the worse and the best about democracy and capitalism, in regards that anyone can get elected if they play their cards right and get a majority.
And as history has shown on countless occasions, what is democratic isn't always what is good, just or logical.
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#81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post

These people are not the same.
Regardless of US foreign policy and military action, which pretty much rolls with the times (See how intervention/invasion/surgical strike evolved during the Clinton-Bush-Obama period)' you can't compare Bush and Trump, born in the cradle of white privilege and elitism, to Obama's self made professional and political career.


There is no point in mentioning Bush being born into privilege and Obama not, when their ending results are very similar. Personally they could be very different people and im sure this would have something to do with it, but politically they headed in the same direction by choice.



When as you stated its them "rolling with the times", which of course is the times of corporate interest. The times of showing more concern for the profits of oil companies, private military and arms manufactures. This is not a written in a prophecy, its not predetermined. It can be broken and it would be fantastic if we could have a generation of children who did not grow up only knowing war for the interests of those who do not give a shit about the lives they taking.



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#82
AVoice from the past here. Not a political expert, just some thoughts.

Last night was horrific. Disgraceful. How the fuck could 53% of white WOMEN vote for this guy?

We should have seen it coming. Stupidity & white fear are natural laws in this country & they've been building up for 8 years. We thought the Bush years demonstrated without question the damage an unchecked Conservative mandate can do. We were wrong.

It's a bad day for everyone & a worse day for brown people. I'm genuinely frightened for women. For gay people. Kids. The poor and middle class. The military. Immigrants. Everyone.

The SCOTUS is fucked for a generation. The damage that can potentially be wrought on the environment and our national parks has me to the point of tears. Not looking forward to the likely but hopefully not inevitable recession.

Even so, I'm not frightened of Trump, himself. There is a silver lining there. He's not the first scumbag to hold the office, or the first moron. He's not Hitler. He's not Pol Pot. He's not a despot. He's not even W.

The difference is that he's not an ideologue. Not even a politician. He's a tabloid buffoon and has been since you & I were kids.

The difference is that he lacks conviction. He subscribes to no ideology beyond Trumpism. The fulfillment of his ego.

First, beyond anything else, he's an egoist and a child. To him, our Presidency is a toy. It's the top of the celebrity pyramid. It's the holy flush validation of his ego. That's it.

Beyond that, he's Archie Bunker. An armchair politician. A Monday morning quarterback. A dormroom conspiracist.

You know what being President is? It's a job. A very fucking difficult one. It will age you by decades. IF you want to work the machinery of government to accomplish something.

There will be damage across the board, to be certain, but he's not going to try to establish a New World Order. That requires vision. That requires work.

Someone spent eight years trying to do it and we survived the attempt. We survived it's war. We survived the recession that came afterward. And we are battle hardened. We know those lessons well. We know where to stand and how to fight.

During the primaries, I thought of Bernie as "Woodstock", Hillary as "Woodstock '94 brought to you by Pepsi", & Trump as "Altamont".

So now we live in "Altamont"...and you know some brothers are gonna get stabbed before it's over.

When Trump pulled ahead last night, my thoughts went to the Correspondents Dinner a few years back when Obama made jibes at Trump. The camera went to Donald, stiff upper lip, with a look that said, "You just wait, motherfucker". The steely entitlement and coiled anger.

Those are qualities I see often in white men over 50 out in the world & in the workplace. Usually in reaction to myself, a person of color. The steely entitlement and coiled anger. The suspicion. That's half of America and it's nothing new.

The thing about knee jerk, reactionary Conservative/Fox News politics is that it's dumb, poorly thought out, emotional and not entirely feasible in practice. It's white inflammation, guarding itself from "the other". Though real, the damage will be scattered, unfocused, painfully dumb. If we hold on and fight, we'll make it through the storm of stupid.

With Trump, THE DARK KNIGHT comes to mind. White conservative America, in their desperation, have turned to someone they don't fully understand.

He's not gonna tow the Conservative line as other Republican presidents have, he's gonna tow the Trump line. What that means, who the fuck knows. Either way, it's gonna require work and I'm not entirely convinced that he's prepared to put his back into it. The job is ostensibly PUBLIC SERVICE, after all.

I can see his presidency going in two directions:

one, after a year in office, realizing how much actual work is required with no immediate, visceral return, we'll see him retreat further into the perpetual recess of the golf club. A largely absentee president with Pence & Ryan calling most of the shots. Evil but not crazy. We've survived that & come back swinging.

Or, two, the presidency will be a four year vehicle for his worst reactionary impulses. Perpetually surrounded by enemies both real and imagined. It will get ugly. There will be costs.

I pray for the former and believe that our best weapon against the latter is reason, communication, civility, and immovable resolve.

With that in mind, my thoughts turn to Obama. He's still a rock star. He still has enormous cache here & abroad. And he still has a voice that matters.

With the DNC in tatters, I can only hope that Obama will be a unifying presence of reason that helps to guide us through the next few years while leading the party back to fighting form. I can also see him in Jimmy Carter form, traveling the world putting out fires and keeping the old relationships from straining irrevocably. One hopes.

Oh and fuck Debbie Wasserman Schultz. This is on you, honey.
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#83

Well said.



It really sucks that we didn't win the senate though. That would've the resistance a lot easier. We have to hope people like John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Ben Sasse, Jeff Flake and Mike Lee actually give a fuck about honor and this fabled constitution they speak so highly of.



Yeah, they'll gut Obamacare, they'll gut the EPA, they'll give tax cuts to their rich friends, but I hope that they don't let Trump destroy the country.

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#84
A[quote name="Elahrairah" url="/community/t/156033/trumpocalypse-2016/50#post_4170598"]
There is no point in mentioning Bush being born into privilege and Obama not, when their ending results are very similar. Personally they could be very different people and im sure this would have something to do with it, but politically they headed in the same direction by choice.

When as you stated its them "rolling with the times", which of course is the times of corporate interest. The times of showing more concern for the profits of oil companies, private military and arms manufactures. This is not a written in a prophecy, its not predetermined. It can be broken and it would be fantastic if we could have a generation of children who did not grow up only knowing war for the interests of those who do not give a shit about the lives they taking.
[/quote]

With all due respect, Are you fucking kidding me?
Bush ruined the economy, created AND continued a clusterfuck of foreign policy, allowed his cronies to fatten their pockets, let corporate crime go unpunished and did absolutely nothing to ease racial tension and social inequality in the country.
He handed Obama a fractured USA, and Obama is handing Trump a much better country than it was given to him.
Obama worked his way through the sistem, wasn't handed education, contacts and party favors on a silver platter because of his economic or social status, and was much more open to working with the opposition than Bush or Trump.
This isn't open to debate. This is math and statistics.

And regarding war, Obama managed to reduce US troops on foreign soil. make deals with hostile states that reduced their threat without military intervention, and, despite its record, the use of drone warfare is much more humane and less destructive than Bush and Clinton's direct military intervention policies.

And if you can be as glib and cynical to support Trump, the very face of 80s elitism, economic greed and disgusting morals, while waxing philosophical pretentious bullshit about how things will never change because it's all manipulated by the military/oil industrial complex, then fuck you for just rolling with it while complaining and doing nothing.

You just shrug your shoulders and justify your bitching because that's the way things are?
I thank the fucking heavens you are a minority in these boards.
People here are dealing with a future president that has triumphed on a platform and populist support that threatens not only decades of civil rights advancements , economic progress and international relations, but their very rights, safety and the futures of them and their families.
You make me want to fucking puke, you spineless, self-defeatist shade of a human being.
Next time you open your mouth to complain and justify your viewpoint, remember that you just threw in the towel long ago.
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#85
AHoly shit, Art!
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#86

WashPost compiled this list of shit that Trump said we would do....



Here are 76 of Donald Trump’s many campaign promises


 

Part of me wants to make a checklist and mark it every time one of these repellent ideas comes to fruition, but it would end up depressing me more than I already am.

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#87
AWelcome back Art Decade. Jesus, great post!!
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#88

 Trump outperformed Romney with both African Americans and Latinos.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around how Trump's rhetoric had so little effect.

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#89
Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
 

WashPost compiled this list of shit that Trump said we would do....



Here are 76 of Donald Trump’s many campaign promises



Part of me wants to make a checklist and mark it every time one of these repellent ideas comes to fruition, but it would end up depressing me more than I already am.



It's a funny old world when people are actively going around saying, in effect, that Hillary was the worst war monger seemingly because she never said she's going to do all the war mongering shit that Trump promised he would.

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#90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco Senior View Post
 

 Trump outperformed Romney with both African Americans and Latinos.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around how Trump's rhetoric had so little effect.



And I want to know why white women voted for Trump over Hillary by 10%. And white women were the recipient of Trump's unwanted sexual advances over the years, as well. Given a chance to elect the first woman to White House, they picked a misogynist instead.

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#91
AAs I mentioned in the other thread, it's internalized misogyny. I heard people at work yesterday talking about all of Clinton's negatives and not even mentioning Trump at all. Also, Trump's celebrity appeals to dumb people of all colors.



In other news, Sam Seder (who has a great post-election show up on YouTube right now) took a not-so-veiled swipe at guys like Jimmy Dore, which I appreciated. He even read listener criticism of TYT (which I believe bears at least *some* responsibility for depressing turnout amongst young people) without commentary, which spoke volumes about how he feels about them right now.
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#92
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Decade View Post

With Trump, THE DARK KNIGHT comes to mind. White conservative America, in their desperation, have turned to someone they don't fully understand.


Only took two pages this time.

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#93
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anger Management View Post
 


And I want to know why white women voted for Trump over Hillary by 10%. And white women were the recipient of Trump's unwanted sexual advances over the years, as well. Given a chance to elect the first woman to White House, they picked a misogynist instead.


My mother didn't vote for Trump (I think she held her nose for Clinton and voted a straight Republican ticket otherwise), but she has expressed a deep, almost visceral disdain for the idea of voting for Hillary Clinton "just because she's a woman."  While in my mother's case I don't think it made for a Trump vote, I'm pretty sure that attitude is far from unique, and I think in the case of people that lean even a bit further right than my parents it could easily be used as a justification.  "She thinks she gets my vote just because she has a vagina?!?  I make my own decisions!"

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#94

Okay, serious questions I have no answer for, given my non american background:



-What happens if Trump loses and is found guilty on any of the legal cases he has been involved since before the election? (Trump University, Sexual harassment suits)


-What happens if the CIA or FBI (okay, fine, not FBI) prove there is a direct link, either politically or financially, between Trump's campaign and Putin/Russia?


-Could any of this cases actually keep Trump from assuming the presidency? I mean, if Trump was proved to have recieved money/help/hacks from Putin/Russia, wouldnt that be actually high treason?

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#95
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 

Okay, serious questions I have no answer for, given my non american background:



-What happens if Trump loses and is found guilty on any of the legal cases he has been involved since before the election? (Trump University, Sexual harassment suits)


-What happens if the CIA or FBI (okay, fine, not FBI) prove there is a direct link, either politically or financially, between Trump's campaign and Putin/Russia?


-Could any of this cases actually keep Trump from assuming the presidency? I mean, if Trump was proved to have recieved money/help/hacks from Putin/Russia, wouldnt that be actually high treason?



The lawsuits are unlikely to be decided before he becomes President, and unlikely to implicate him directly enough to undo him.



Proof of a direct link to Russia would end him, but I'm not hopeful that there is anyone interested and capable enough to uncover one. But yes, I do believe that even the frothing-at-the-mouth deficient Republican Congress would impeach if there were strong evidence that Trump knowingly received illegal aid from Putin.



Of course, that would fix very little. Most of the damage that is likely to occur to this country and the world will come from that same Congress. They are collectively as stupid and evil as Trump, with far more knowledge about how to apply their terrible ideas politically.

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#96
Quote:

Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
 


The lawsuits are unlikely to be decided before he becomes President, and unlikely to implicate him directly enough to undo him.



Proof of a direct link to Russia would end him, but I'm not hopeful that there is anyone interested and capable enough to uncover one. But yes, I do believe that even the frothing-at-the-mouth deficient Republican Congress would impeach if there were strong evidence that Trump knowingly received illegal aid from Putin.



Of course, that would fix very little. Most of the damage that is likely to occur to this country and the world will come from that same Congress. They are collectively as stupid and evil as Trump, with far more knowledge about how to apply their terrible ideas politically.


Ok, I see.


Well, there a couple month's to go. Maybe we'll get a reverse karma ray of hope here.*



*Then again, imagine the absolute chaos Trump being revealed as a full time, paid Putin stooge would cause; it could pretty much lead to WW3.

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#97
ALet's be realistic here. Trump may not be too bright...but Putin is. There won't be any direct links because they don't exist. I'm fairly certain the extent of Russian aid to Trump were the DNC hack and string pulling on Wikileaks.

The terrifying part is that now that Putin has seen how to help swing an American election, he'll do it again, likely even more aggressively next time.

Even more terrifying: Putin's hackers undoubtedly hit the RNC too. How much blackmail material can he now threaten to drop on Wikileaks if the Republicans don't act in ways that he prefers?
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#98

I fully expect zero people to agree with me on this, but I am (very) cautiously optimistic that Trump and his long time personal friend Chuck Schumer (whom he's supported both verbally and financially) might be able to do some good things.  Infrastructure spending is important.  Schumer has been yelling about China's currency manipulation for years (which is a legitimate issue).  FYI as of yesterday, Trump's pledge to ban all Muslims from entering the country was silently removed from his website...where it used to be front and center.

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#99
AThis might be me finding some silver lining in this mess, but I do believe that "shitface" will walk back on a lot of his extreme views.
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AYes. The guy wants to win, and he knows a big reason why he did is because disaffected Democrats came to his side while he overperformed with blacks and latinos. He also knows he'll need them again in 2020.
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A2020? He's not running again, guys. Why would he take the risk of losing? He got the prize, proved that his celebrity is th best. Won the biggest toy imaginable. He won't do it again at 74.


Inevitably, one of you will throw post back in my face in three or so years.
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Quote:

Originally Posted by PeJota View Post
 


Hey man I didn't vote for Trump. I was just explaining that Hilary wasn't very well liked by a lot of people (including me), despite her 30 years of public service.



She won the popular vote.... barely. Let's not pretend that she's some beloved American hero who got screwed over by the Electoral College system.


Alright.  My bad.  Emotions running high yesterday.

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A[quote name="neil spurn" url="/community/t/156033/trumpocalypse-2016/90#post_4170758"]2020? He's not running again, guys. Why would he take the risk of losing? He got the prize, proved that his celebrity is th best. Won the biggest toy imaginable. He won't do it again at 74.


Inevitably, one of you will throw post back in my face in three or so years.[/quote]

Oh yeah, if I were him I'd go out on top! He can play the "I didn't need this, I'm a billionaire! I ran because I love this country, and it needed fixing. And I. Fixed. It. Mike Pence is an outstanding individual (who's actually been running the country for the last 4 years anyway), and you should vote for him."

They'll give Pence unanimous support and give him a female VP running mate.

And they'll win.
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It'll all depend on how things are going, really.  If he's as big a clusterfuck as he could be short of global nuclear war...no, he wouldn't win a re-election bid, nor would his chosen successor.



If things aren't a disaster, it'll depend on who the Dems put up to try to defeat him.



If things are, by some miracle, going well...then yeah, reelection may be all but a formality.



I do find the conundrum of Trump handling the office of the Presidency an interesting one, as it's going to be a continual war between his desire for the biggest spotlight imaginable and his wish to do as little actual work as possible.  I also don't think he'll allow himself to just be a rubber-stamp/puppet president...not entirely.  His ego is too big to risk some other guy (Pence) getting all the credit for "his" work, and even more so people believing that "Pence is really the guy in charge."



He's gonna swing his dick around from time-to-time and it'll be amusing to see who in the GOP it ends up slapping in the face in the process (usually Pence).  I also fully expect that Trump will be quick to seize credit for any good news and throw Pence and Congress under the bus for bad news on a regular basis.  That's gonna make things prickly between the various factions.



I also find myself curious as to whether John Kasich is kicking himself for not accepting the supposed Trump running mate offer, or if he's still kicking back thinking, "Oh Mike, you really don't know how bad you're going to get screwed, do you?"

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