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Hollywood Scandals & Assorted Skeeve Catch-All
(06-22-2018, 10:59 AM)jonathan parker Wrote: Actually, I did mean spurned, but autocorrect and not reading what I post created a much better result. Who would have known?

Don't try to back out of this now.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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All I get from the last page of this thread is that we need Wil Wheaton to star in a remake of Humanoids of the Deep.
Someday, you’re going to fuck up so magnificently, so ambitiously, so overwhelmingly that the sky will light up and the moons will spin and the gods themselves will shit comets with glee.

PSN ID: anakinsdad

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And Fett hates fun!



Sorry Fett.
If you're happy, you're not paying attention.

Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny: 
Glad that you guys worked that out amongst yourselves.

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I'm fine with it, I envisioned more of a Brood situation than eggs though....
"I'll live to see you eat that contract, but I hope you leave enough room for my fist because I'm going to ram it into your stomach and break your god-damn spine!"- Arnold Schwarzenegger in The Running Man.

PSN and Steam gamer tag: rockbollocks

Blizzard ID: Rockbollocks#11635
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A horrifying thread on Maynard James Keenan of Tool - https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status...4637067264
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God-fucking-damn it. I love Tool and A Perfect Circle. Seen them both in concert.

Everything is ruined forever.
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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I don't like Tool, so I knew it all along.

Surprised there hasn't been more of a reckoning for the music industry with #metoo etc. I'm sure there are an endless amount of women with terrible tales of "groupie" experiences.
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I remember reading Marilyn Manson's autobiography (don't judge me, this was like 20 yeas ago) and him detailing how he and Trent Reznor would play a game backstage where they would give groupies enemas and then see who could hold the shit in longer.

Yep.
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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(06-24-2018, 09:49 AM)Mangy Wrote: A horrifying thread on Maynard James Keenan of Tool - https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status...4637067264

Well it's an anonymous twitter account and unlike the Aziz thing the victim hasn't even been vetted by a writer. This could literally be anyone. Although if I was going to invent a story to screw over someone I would probably make them younger and actually illegal. If true I don't know if you could even prosecute this, even if the statute of limitations hasn't ran out.

(06-24-2018, 12:27 PM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: I remember reading Marilyn Manson's autobiography (don't judge me, this was like 20 yeas ago) and him detailing how he and Trent Reznor would play a game backstage where they would give groupies enemas and then see who could hold the shit in longer.

Yep.

The fact that they happily did this. It really is no wonder that Rock stars walk around feeling like gods.

(06-24-2018, 12:24 PM)Munson Wrote: I don't like Tool, so I knew it all along.

Surprised there hasn't been more of a reckoning for the music industry with #metoo etc. I'm sure there are an endless amount of women with terrible tales of "groupie" experiences.

Yeah, I had that thought too. I really is surprising but I do believe that most of the girls going to "meet the band" know why they are doing so. But there has to be a ton of underage girls, especially through the 60's to the 90's. But they may have the same mentality of that girl that Bowie was with.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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Never liked Tool or Maynard so the news that he's a horrible piece of shit doesn't surprise me.
Originally Posted by ImmortanNick 

Saw Batman v Superman.
Now I know what it's like to see Nickelback in concert.

That's my review.
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If legit this seems like one of those cases where a bunch more will come to light and show this isn't just some revenge hit job by a jilted/spurned whatever.
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(06-24-2018, 05:27 PM)headless fett Wrote: Never liked Tool or Maynard so the news that he's a horrible piece of shit doesn't surprise me.

Putting the rape accusations to the side for a moment...statements like this are fucking moronic.

Don't try and spin your own dislike of someone's work (this also applies to Hardwick et al) as some kind of corroborative evidence of their shittiness. It just comes across like you're smugly patting your own back that you "KNEW ALL ALONG SOMETHING WAS OFF".

As for the accusations themselves; Sadly it's certainly all too plausible. One anonymous accusation is not enough to know anything for certain but the wording does make it feel believable and as the others have said, if more accusations are there they will definitely come to light.
"I mean don't get me wrong fucking the wolf man is impressive but ugh." - Waaaaaaaalt
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(06-25-2018, 03:49 AM)Codename Wrote: Don't try and spin your own dislike of someone's work (this also applies to Hardwick et al) as some kind of corroborative evidence of their shittiness.
But Codename, I still have my whole grudge match against progressive metal to work through!
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(06-25-2018, 03:49 AM)Codename Wrote:
(06-24-2018, 05:27 PM)headless fett Wrote: Never liked Tool or Maynard so the news that he's a horrible piece of shit doesn't surprise me.

Putting the rape accusations to the side for a moment...statements like this are fucking moronic.

Don't try and spin your own dislike of someone's work (this also applies to Hardwick et al) as some kind of corroborative evidence of their shittiness. It just comes across like you're smugly patting your own back that you "KNEW ALL ALONG SOMETHING WAS OFF".

As for the accusations themselves; Sadly it's certainly all too plausible. One anonymous accusation is not enough to know anything for certain but the wording does make it feel believable and as the others have said, if more accusations are there they will definitely come to light.

There's a lot of "this" attitude in this thread sometimes that sort of gives me pause.
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It goes hand in hand with people's reactions to Kelly Marie Tran leaving Instragram. "I hate her performance in The Last Jedi, but she didn't deserve to be bullied."

Just, you know, cut out the first part.
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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I'm a fan of Tool and also find Maynard to be an insufferable twat . . . but honestly the only thing surprising about that story is that it wasn't sodomy.
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I've been waiting for more rockers to be exposed in Time's Up. Honestly, it's quite surprising that more haven't. Outside of Jesse Lacey from Brand New, I can't think of many.

Also, the only good song Maynard was ever on was Passenger and it's only a good song because it was written by Deftones. Yeah, I said it. Fight me, Tool fans. His own songs are wank.
The poster formerly known as Inkblades.
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How is Led Zeppelin not being brought up in this? I mean....seriously..
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I expect most of the really infamous classic rockers will get a pass by virtue of being dead or nearly so. Then again, that didn't save Cosby.

(I also expect that any of the genuine icons getting caught up in this will end up being more of a deep and uncomfortable examination of just how far the boundaries for consent have shifted in the last few decades than anything, but I'm not as up on the stories that go around about these people than some posters here. I mean, the one infamous anecdote I've heard about Zeppelin is the story about creative uses for a fish, which was presented to me back when as a tale of outright rape, but on further review is something that the band members admit having happened but claim that the girl in question was totally on board with. And if that's true, whether or not you want to argue that the whole famous person/groupie dynamic makes the question of consent more complicated than that, it's a whole different kettle of...um, issue...than the anecdote about the Tool guy. But, as I said, this is not really my wheelhouse and other people probably know more than me.)
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Because that stuff has been in the public eye for decades. It lacks the oomph factor of revelation. Also, even if there are as yet unknown events with those guys, unless the ladies in question are still alive and bear a grudge, it is unlikely to kick off. You need the sense of someone seeking justice to get the ball rolling. Plus, it's entirely possible that, Page's relationship with Lori Maddox aside, a lot of that stuff was made up by Richard Cole.
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(06-25-2018, 03:57 AM)commodorejohn Wrote:
(06-25-2018, 03:49 AM)Codename Wrote: Don't try and spin your own dislike of someone's work (this also applies to Hardwick et al) as some kind of corroborative evidence of their shittiness.
But Codename, I still have my whole grudge match against progressive metal to work through!

There's some really great progressive metal out there. I don't consider Tool or APC to be all that great and never will.

Also, those other bands aren't fronted by a rapist.
Originally Posted by ImmortanNick 

Saw Batman v Superman.
Now I know what it's like to see Nickelback in concert.

That's my review.
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The best thing you can say about progressive metal is that it got people interested in classic prog again.

Well, that and Steven Wilson's series of classic prog remasters.

Except the Emerson, Lake & Palmer reissue. Bastard, you can't screw with the actual album content and then go pretending it's the same damn album.
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Regarding the groupie issue, I at least have a more moderate position on it. I think when revisiting a lot of these encounters that occupy a grey area (which, let's be clear, this thing with Maynard is clearly not), we have to listen to the people who participated in those. This came out a bit after Bowie's death, where there was a round of "he slept with groupies that were underage" stories. And in one of those stories, the person Bowie had slept with - now a grown woman - came out and said "I knew what was going to happen, that's why I went there, and I don't have any bad feelings about any of it." So I think in cases like that, we have to validate and respect that person's agency over their own story. But on the other hand, it was still a grown man sleeping with an underage girl.

A similar story happened with Chrissy Hynde of the Pretenders, who told a story in the memoir about how she was sexually assaulted, but framed it in such a way that she felt like she was "asking for it." An interviewer - a couple - sort of pushed her on that, and tried to get her to admit that she wasn't at fault. From reading those interviews, it seemed like the interviews were trying to impose their own narrative on Hynde and invalidating her own experiences/interpretation.

Finally, this is a huge portion of what the recent film THE TALE is about - a woman coming to realize, through the help of her parents and loved ones, that what she interpreted as a consensual relationship she had at 13 with an adult man was, in actuality, abuse.

I know I've taken a lot of heat for "believe women," but I think a far more nuanced approach is, maybe, "Listen to women." We shouldn't devalue or invalidate their experiences, nor should we judge them for how they choose to interpret events. (With the obvious caveat that this stops the second they use their behavior to hurt other people.) That's not our place. It's the place of their friends, family, and therapists to help them work through that, if that's what they choose to do.

But yeah, fuck tool.
home taping is killing music
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You aren't wrong about The Tale. That's pretty much the perfect film about about understanding the sexual abuse of a child. After the end credits I discovered that it was all completely true and it was about the director herself so that makes sense.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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The Bowie story is particularly interesting to me. Does he get a huge pass simply because he's an artist who white hipsters love to pieces? The girl who had sex with him can say she consented, but she was at a child at the time. Whether a child thinks they gave their consent is irrelevant, because a child can not give consent. Some form of manipulation is happening on the part of the adult.
The poster formerly known as Inkblades.
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(06-25-2018, 04:45 PM)WilderHackman Wrote: The Bowie story is particularly interesting to me. Does he get a huge pass simply because he's an artist who white hipsters love to pieces? The girl who had sex with him can say she consented, but she was at a child at the time. Whether a child thinks they gave their consent is irrelevant, because a child can not give consent. Some form of manipulation is happening on the part of the adult.

Well, I'm not fully familiar with that particular situation, but if it's a "groupie went backstage" story, I would imagine the "manipulation" is nothing more than "I'm a hugely talented rock star" coupled with "I'm not/my people aren't exactly checking IDs (much less verifying they're not fake even if it was checked) when these girls come backstage."
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A lot of those stories regarding groupies and such (like around Led Zep) strike me as 'unreliable narrator' stories meant to embellish the mystique or reputation of the band. If women come forward and have actual complaints about events, I'll re-evaluate my level of outrage over what happened and, in turn, re-evaluate my enjoyment of the associated band's material. Until then, I'll chalk up most of this stuff to drug induced fish stories.
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I don't think anyone was turning on the outrage machine or saying you're a bad person for liking this music. That didn't seem to be the tone or line of the discussion at all.
home taping is killing music
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Because everything must be problematic, Harlan Ellison's death has brought back up that he groped Connie Willis during the Hugo Award ceremony in 2006:





Somehow I missed this whole thing. But this getting brought back up again has also sparked discussion about a boys club mentality in science fiction literary circles in general, with Twitter getting the knives out for Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov. 

So what'd I miss about all these guys? Why was I ever naive enough to enjoy anything?
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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Oh believe me, it doesn't get as much press as the toxicity in Star Wars or video games/Gamergate or even Comic book (particularly Marvel) fandom but Sci-Fi fandom has been very much having the same problems for the last few years, with a vocal group of toxic fucksticks running campaigns to try to prevent success/recognition for works that "promote a (insert silent "progressive" here) political agenda" and "get science fiction back to the simple (insert silent "straight white male" here) adventure stories it's supposed to be."  They literally act like classic Sci-Fi never had any allegory or political allusion.  I've seen living, breathing morons try to argue that fucking Dune is nothing more than a coming-of-age adventure story.

And yes, there's a HUGE amount of overlap on the Venn Diagram of all these fuckers.
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(06-29-2018, 08:53 AM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: Because everything must be problematic, Harlan Ellison's death has brought back up that he groped Connie Willis during the Hugo Award ceremony in 2006:

Somehow I missed this whole thing. But this getting brought back up again has also sparked discussion about a boys club mentality in science fiction literary circles in general, with Twitter getting the knives out for Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov. 

So what'd I miss about all these guys? Why was I ever naive enough to enjoy anything?

Asimov was a renowned harrasser, he was well known for it at conventions. Someone once suggested he host a talk called "The Positive Power of Posterior Pinching". Not sure about Clarke.

And yeah, the Hugo awards have become a joke the last few years. The Sad Puppies campaign put a whole bunch of mindless dude-bro pew pew stuff up there. The other side threw up any old shite as long as it was written by a woman or a non-American. The whole thing descended into farce.
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Everything is horrible.
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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The guys are dead. Why wait till they're dead to bring it up?
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World Fantasy Awards went through this shit, too. Although I think flint's suggestion that the other side responded by nominating women/authors of color regardless of their quality is a little unfair.

The Ellison thing is tough for me personally, but I think it ties into a larger conversation about gatekeeping. A good thread I saw on Twitter talked about how this was a lot of young SF fan's first exposure to Ellison - groping an acclaimed female author - and how that exposure led them to wonder if SFF was a genre they could participate in, if it was friendly to them. And I think it comes back to the idea of gatekeepers, and wondering who controls access in these situations. jmaq has a good summary of it, I think.

But on the other hand, a number of women of color have come forward to talk about how Ellison was remarkably supportive of their career, and how he was a big, early booster of Octavia Butler. Which is more than Asimov or some of these other titans ever did.

And on the other other hand, SFF has had problems with weirdos and bad behavior for a long time. Marion Zimmer Bradley was writing feminist reimaginings of Arthurian legend while her husband was abusing kids and she was helping cover that up. Ray Bradbury was a Republican for much of his later life. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Your fave, as they say, is problematic.

(06-29-2018, 11:09 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: The guys are dead. Why wait till they're dead to bring it up?

As this very thread pointed out and a cursory google search revealed, these issues with both Ellison and Asimov were brought up during their lifetime.

Sometimes I feel like you ask rhetorical questions just to ask them, fraid.
home taping is killing music
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(06-29-2018, 11:09 AM)fraid uh noman Wrote: The guys are dead. Why wait till they're dead to bring it up?

So they can think about what they did as they go down the River Styx.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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