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Damon Lindelof's WATCHMEN, Coming to HBO
Either way, given each episode is another year for him and he's been gone for seven, I take it to mean his scenes will result in us seeing him finally breaking free in episode 7, at which point I expect delightful things to happen. Perhaps that was even him crashing down to earth near the Clarks' farm, if that scene was taking place in the present.
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(11-12-2019, 04:53 PM)schwartz Wrote: Well sure, I've made that point multiple times in the blog posts, that it is not a matter of realism.  It's a matter of taking away the thing that made the character so interesting in the first place, and replacing it with something more one-dimensional.

But context, right?  This is an Ozymandias that's presumably been in captivity for a number of years with only clones to keep him company.

He's already someone willing to blow up an entire city when "sane," so I don't see it that farfetched that he'd grow more petty as he becomes more desperate.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Not farfetched. More simplistic, less interesting.
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Actual forward momentum. I'll take the slooooow set up if they keep moving forward from now on
AIt's just tits and dragons. - Ian McShane on Game of Thones
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That opening was amazing. Then the rest of the episode topped it. This is entering into all-timer territory for me.
My karmic debt must be huge.

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My blog: An Embarrassment of Rich's
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Great episode. So much to digest. The Squid, more on Seventh Kalvary, what those pills are (and by extension what was going on with Lady Trieu's daughter last episode), cloning being a commercial enterprise, where Veidt really is (looks like all of us were kinda right about it being off Earth but I doubt anyone expected Europa). As a fan of the comic book, this episode was just amazing. Oh and 1985 Adrien Veidt!

Looks like Manhatten DID create some life of his own if the Warden saying that his God isn't coming back means who I think he means. Also, did the Warden come across as The Comedian to anyone? Lots to digest but I can see why Lindelof was referring to this as a remix now.
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I imagine he knew the wrath that would be upon him if he out right claimed this to be a sequel to Watchmen
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Great episode.
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Man, just showing the fallout in Hoboken with the slow pan to The Squid really drives home what a bone-headed move not using The Squid in the movie adaptation was.
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So what I could see of Veidt's message was "SAVE ME D." "Save me Dan," maybe?
My karmic debt must be huge.

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My blog: An Embarrassment of Rich's
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(11-18-2019, 03:53 AM)Fafhrd Wrote: Man, just showing the fallout in Hoboken with the slow pan to The Squid really drives home what a bone-headed move not using The Squid in the movie adaptation was.

Yup. All those morons and cowards who said it could never work can eat a brick of shit, that owned.
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It probably wasn't intentional, but that pan from Hoboken to Manhattan reminded me a little of a reverse version of the old HBO intro from the '80s:



My karmic debt must be huge.

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My blog: An Embarrassment of Rich's
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You kind of expect Rorschach devotees to be the crazy ones, but that just means you don't see the aggro squid fanboys coming.
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Intriguing episode. Sorry to see Looking  Glass go, if it's indeed as bad as it comes off for him at the end. Some questions answered, which seem to leave only a couple of big ones. There appear to be two factions, Trieu/Reeves and Keene/Kavalry, each counting down to their master plan in the same timeframe-- or is it the same plan and they aren't actually all that opposed (much like the police and the 7K are revealed to be here)? Then you've got the wild cards of Veidt and Manhattan. Honestly, I don't know what the hell to think at this point.

Anyway, here's something published today-- in which Alan Moore makes Scorcese sound like a superhero fanboy:

https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019...y.html?m=1

"I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum. The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks."

That's an interesting parallel connection drawn between the genre and American race relations (of course, it's also briefly present in the book through the New Frontiersman piece), which the show is attacking from a slightly different angle with Will Reeves.

ETA -- Actually that interview is a bit older, re-upped today for some reason.
Our sanitariums are full of men who think they're Napoleon... Or God.
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I'm thinking Lookin Glass makes it out of this tough spot.
AIt's just tits and dragons. - Ian McShane on Game of Thones
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(11-18-2019, 04:49 PM)anyawatchin angel Wrote: I'm thinking Lookin Glass makes it out of this tough spot.

That's my guess, too.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(11-18-2019, 03:18 PM)slim Wrote: Intriguing episode. Sorry to see Looking  Glass go, if it's indeed as bad as it comes off for him at the end. Some questions answered, which seem to leave only a couple of big ones. There appear to be two factions, Trieu/Reeves and Keene/Kavalry, each counting down to their master plan in the same timeframe-- or is it the same plan and they aren't actually all that opposed (much like the police and the 7K are revealed to be here)? Then you've got the wild cards of Veidt and Manhattan. Honestly, I don't know what the hell to think at this point.

Anyway, here's something published today-- in which Alan Moore makes Scorcese sound like a superhero fanboy:

https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019...y.html?m=1

"I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum. The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks."

That's an interesting parallel connection drawn between the genre and American race relations (of course, it's also briefly present in the book through the New Frontiersman piece), which the show is attacking from a slightly different angle with Will Reeves.

ETA -- Actually that interview is a bit older, re-upped today for some reason.
Yeah. Watchmen is more than about a gritty, deconstruction of superheroes--it really is about America's pathological obsession with nostalgic idealism of what "America could be" rather than "what it actually is."  We use Superheroes as a way to cope with largely complex issues that are downright overwhelming.  Captain America punches Robert Redford (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, OH GOD I JUST REALIZED THAT) and everyone goes home happy. But in the real world, corrupt politicians and corporations are still raping the lands, people are still impoverished.  Nothing has changed--we just want an escape.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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SCHWARTZBLOG - "LITTLE FEAR OF LIGHTNING"
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(11-18-2019, 03:18 PM)slim Wrote: Intriguing episode. Sorry to see Looking  Glass go, if it's indeed as bad as it comes off for him at the end. Some questions answered, which seem to leave only a couple of big ones. There appear to be two factions, Trieu/Reeves and Keene/Kavalry, each counting down to their master plan in the same timeframe-- or is it the same plan and they aren't actually all that opposed (much like the police and the 7K are revealed to be here)? Then you've got the wild cards of Veidt and Manhattan. Honestly, I don't know what the hell to think at this point.

Anyway, here's something published today-- in which Alan Moore makes Scorcese sound like a superhero fanboy:

https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2019...y.html?m=1

"I think the impact of superheroes on popular culture is both tremendously embarrassing and not a little worrying. While these characters were originally perfectly suited to stimulating the imaginations of their twelve or thirteen year-old audience, today’s franchised übermenschen, aimed at a supposedly adult audience, seem to be serving some kind of different function, and fulfilling different needs. Primarily, mass-market superhero movies seem to be abetting an audience who do not wish to relinquish their grip on (a) their relatively reassuring childhoods, or (b) the relatively reassuring 20th century. The continuing popularity of these movies to me suggests some kind of deliberate, self-imposed state of emotional arrest, combined with an numbing condition of cultural stasis that can be witnessed in comics, movies, popular music and, indeed, right across the cultural spectrum. The superheroes themselves – largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Schuster – would seem to be largely employed as cowardice compensators, perhaps a bit like the handgun on the nightstand. I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks."
Said the warlock.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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(11-19-2019, 12:38 AM)schwartz Wrote: SCHWARTZBLOG - "LITTLE FEAR OF LIGHTNING"


Quote: While I think that overall, the movie operates more as an object lesson in how to screw up an adaptation by being overly slavish to the text (although it is even more hurt by a few iffy bits of casting and getting the aesthetics just completely, 1000% wrong), I still think that this one major point of deviation from the book was a good choice.  It maintains the thorny ethical knot of the ending, while streamlining the narrative and foregoing the more patently ludicrous elements that make a bit more sense in comic book form, but are frankly still more silly than things need to be. 


THANK YOU.

Folks here and on social media have been talking about how this episode pwned Snyder and how WRONG he was for not using the squid. I respectfully disagree: in line with what schwartz wrote, I think in the context of the movie - wherein Snyder only had 2.5 hours to tell the entire story of the graphic novel, as opposed to nine full hours Lindelof has here - there's a symmetry and organic simplification by having Veidt frame Manhattan for the attack, as opposed to introducing an intergalactic psychic squid.

Make no mistake: I LOVE how Lindelof is using so many elements from the GN and doing so successfully. I LOVE how he - with perhaps a few minor missteps - seems to really grasp the themes and approach behind the source material. And it should go without saying that the series is in every way the superior to Snyder's film. But there are a few things the Snyder film does well (most of them surface level and focused on visuals), and I'd agree with schwartz that one of them was the reworking of the ending.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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It's just always struck me as odd that Snyder bent over backwards to all but transpose the page to the screen but went hell for leather changing the ending.

My issue with the change (and I say this as a huge fan of the film) is that Dr. Manhatten is famously American and the US boasted as much "Superman (nay, God) exists and he is American".

In Snyders version Russia was attacked by an American. As much as Nixon would protest and claim he'd gone rogue I can't imagine what's left of Moscow shrugging their shoulders and acc epping it. Or at least, that means Adrian's plan entirely relied on Russia buying it which seem's like a massive 'if'.

Regarding the episode, it was fantastic and I'm fully sold now. With that said I hated the Spielberg/Girl in the red dress nonsense. Less is more Damon!
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(11-19-2019, 11:18 AM)Mike\s Pants 2: Pants Harder Wrote: In Snyders version Russia was attacked by an American. As much as Nixon would protest and claim he'd gone rogue I can't imagine what's left of Moscow shrugging their shoulders and acc epping it. Or at least, that means Adrian's plan entirely relied on Russia buying it which seem's like a massive 'if'.

Remember that Veidt manipulated Manhattan into a media appearance which resulted in him screaming LEAVE ME ALONE and disappearing off the planet. The last thing anyone on Earth, except Lori, Veidt, Rorschach, and Dan, saw of Manhattan was him being angry and disappearing.

It's a bit of a leap from there to nuking downtown NYC, but it's not out of nowhere.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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I do question why noone would be expected to ask if Manhattan himself had sent the squid.
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The squid is just goofier than it needs to be. I know people will say it's, like, a commentary on how silly comic books are or whatever, but you can't convince me that if the whole part about cloning brains and psychic waves (which don't factor into the rest of the story at all) were omitted, anyone would have felt like something was missing.
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The squid is boss and anyone who says different is a crazy person.

Also, I like how Snyder's all like too grounded and realistic for that shit but Ozymandias still has a mutant alien panther.
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(11-19-2019, 12:45 PM)commodorejohn Wrote: The squid is boss and anyone who says different is a crazy person.

Also, I like how Snyder's all like too grounded and realistic for that shit but Ozymandias still has a mutant alien panther.

And Manhattan is still making magical glass castles on Mars.
My karmic debt must be huge.

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My blog: An Embarrassment of Rich's
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Neither genetic modification nor a being with superpowers is hard for the general audience to grasp. Both are common enough tropes that no explanation or extra work need be done to make them seem "natural" to the world of the film. The sudden appearance of a stadium-sized psychic squid is a whole 'nother level of weird, and it would, I'd argue, not fit in well with the rest of the film.

More importantly, Veidt using Manhattan's nature against him is, for the film, more economical and symmetrical storytelling. It requires less grasping or puzzlement by the audience.

I'm not really comfortable feeling like I'm defending the film, as I consider it a colossal misfire. But of all the valid reasons to criticize the film, this one change is definitely on the minor side of things.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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So in Spielberg's The Pale Horse, the girl in the red coat survives? THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE!
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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This show always has one element that makes me groan in an otherwise excellent episode. The trigger warning, Dr Dildo... Pale Horse was definitely the one this episode.

Ozy's video to Redford also seemed off, but I can forgive it for Irons' ridiculous accent.
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That was a hell of an hour of television.
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That was magnificent. And the fanboy rage over certain developments is going to be absolutely delicious.
My karmic debt must be huge.

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My blog: An Embarrassment of Rich's
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Goddamn.

And like, goddamn, America.

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How did they get Jeff Bridges circa 1985 to play Captain Metropolis?
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(11-25-2019, 12:05 AM)Richard Dickson Wrote: That was magnificent.  And the fanboy rage over certain developments is going to be absolutely delicious.

And If course they’ll hide behind “but wut about caaaaanon” and my personal favorite “I don’t have a problem with race, I just have an issue with how it’s doooooone”



Yeah, there’s a reason people where going apeshit over the 6th episode.  This is in the running for best of the year, easily.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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On its own this was a great episode but, and I'm not sure why this is, the further we get into the show the less it works for me. There's a certain structural "cleverness", flashback eps, episodes focused on specific characters, Veldt segments that take place a year apart, that keeps me from really connecting to the characters or the show. It's like Lindelof is so in love with the structural conceit - and to a lesser degree trying to replicate the way the original GN was told - that the focus is lost and the whole becomes less than the sum of its (often glorious) parts.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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