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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker - A "pain without end" Overlord discussion thread
(02-17-2019, 04:08 PM)Nooj Wrote:
(02-17-2019, 03:56 PM)Stale Elvis Wrote: The most exciting bit in TLJ is Kylo holding out his hand to Rey and you actually think she might go with him. Holy shit, they’re actually going to go with it.

you actually thought she might?

Yep. But seeing as the film was so badly and choppily edited and everything up to that point was just such surface-level drama I wasn’t really invested in why she would or wouldn’t - it just seemed to be one of the very few times that Rey had a genuine dilemma or needed to make a decision. I could feel the whole audience on the edge of their seats at that point. 

But no. Rey has to stay Little Miss Goody Two Shoes.
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you sound miffed, stale!

how is it a genuine dilemma if you weren't invested in the whys of her making either choice?

and she made a decision. she chose to defy the one person she thought understood her.
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If they'd gone MY way she could've been little miss not so goody 2 shoes, it would've given Luke some much more interesting things to do, in The Last Jedi and, presumably, the next one. And established a real villain by letting Snoke actually ACCOMPLISH something and find out who or what he is. Though I did like his death.

I think I'm in the weird position of simultaneously taking these movies more and less seriously than you guys. I seriously like them. But...I was also in the Army. Sure, I'd LIKE Michelin star rated dining every day....but I can happily make due with what I'm given too. It's just a Star Wars movie and at the same time IT'S A STAR WARS MOVIE!! Big Grin
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I can't believe I'm walking back into this topic, but I remember being actively annoyed at Rey pleading with Kylo to order the First Order to stop firing on the transports...only for the movie to stop and spend what felt like five minutes of screen time of Kylo being mopy and Rey obliging him. I felt the tension vanish instantly.

I maintain that I don't dislike any of the ideas, themes, or character choices presented in the movie. But there's a first draft clunkiness to everything. Abrams focuses on each scene with disregard to the overall structure, but Johnson seems to have the opposite problem, of having a central theme in place, but all of the individual pieces don't quite work.
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(02-17-2019, 04:50 PM)mondguy Wrote: I maintain that I don't dislike any of the ideas, themes, or character choices presented in the movie.  But there's a first draft clunkiness to everything.  Abrams focuses on each scene with disregard to the overall structure, but Johnson seems to have the opposite problem, of having a central theme in place, but all of the individual pieces don't quite work.

this is a totally valid observation!
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(blushes)
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What it feels like is JJ was making a movie for one trilogy and Rian was making a movie for a totally different one. It's like Rian and JJ have never even discussed any of it. And Rian made his movie based on a five minute version of TFA that Kathleen Kennedy told him over the phone.

And now JJ has to make a sequel to a movie that probably was the opposite of what he expected....when he expected to not have to worry about it at all. Because he thought his job was done once he delivered his OT greatest hits cover. So 9 should be fucking weird and I can't wait to see how much y'all hate it!
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Daisy Ridley has her hair in buns again to match footage she shot with Carrie Fisher for TFA. This probably means the controversial macguffin is the giant sledgehammer that was cut from TFA.
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interesting!!
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I swear to god I hope this movie is called Star Wars Into Darkness..
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(02-17-2019, 04:34 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I couldn't tell if that was a good or bad "huh.." Or neutral?


...and maaaaan y'all got the knives sharpened for this. Like it's Attack of the Clones or something..

Whoa, dude. Let’s not go that far,
"Dictatorships foster oppression, dictatorships foster servitude, dictatorships foster cruelty; more abominable is the fact that they foster idiocy."

Xbox Live Gamer Tag: Strider Ryoken / PSN: Kenryo81 /Steam: Ryoken81
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(02-17-2019, 05:17 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I swear to god I hope this movie is called Star Wars Into Darkness..



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The macguffin is another map to find Luke Skywalker again...in heaven.
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(02-17-2019, 04:04 PM)fraid uh noman Wrote: I'm a big Last Jedi defender but Finn flying into that cannon was stupid. Does ANY vehicle in Star Wars have an ejection seat?

Porkins was told to eject just before his X-Wing exploded. The problem with that is he was being told to eject into the cold vacuum of space.
I've got good news and I've got bad news. The bad news is that I have lost my way. The good news is that I'm way ahead of schedule.
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How the fuck would an X Wing ejection even make sense?
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(02-17-2019, 11:43 PM)freeman Wrote: How the fuck would an X Wing ejection even make sense?

Looking at wookipedia, it seems it works just like a real ejector seat, except that the seat itself seems to act like a rocket propelled chair, with the pilot able to control it, at least in the case of the old expanded universe fighter ships.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ejector_seat/Legends

Basically, same as reality, except you better get rescued soon, cause youre just sitting on a chair wearing a spacesuit in outer space.

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/question...bel-pilots

it seems that the Star Wars Holiday special, of all things, anwers this.





Basically, an ejection pod that separates the nose of the fighter from the rest of the craft
"Dictatorships foster oppression, dictatorships foster servitude, dictatorships foster cruelty; more abominable is the fact that they foster idiocy."

Xbox Live Gamer Tag: Strider Ryoken / PSN: Kenryo81 /Steam: Ryoken81
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Ryoken gets it. As all sexy Mavericks and Icemans know, The B-1, the B-58 and the F-111 all had ejection capsules which enclose the pilot, rather than seats, so the X-wings and Y-wings could've had something like that, no sweat. 

(02-17-2019, 04:50 PM)mondguy Wrote: ... there's a first draft clunkiness to everything ...

September 2017: "Wow, Rian Johnson wrapped production already, how did he get it finished so fast?!?"

December 2017: "Ooooooooh ..."

(02-17-2019, 09:35 AM)Stale Elvis Wrote: Rey doesn't have any threshold guardians - or rather she does, but she's already overcome them. Teedo she chases off, then the goons who try to steal BB-8 she dispatches with ease. Similar with Han Solo and his threshold guardian, Greedo - Han is shown more than capable of taking care of Greedo and is thus shown to be a capable and dominant force in his environment - and thus Rey is also presented this way. She also doesn't have any issue piloting the Millennium Falcon. She capable and a dominant force in every environment until she's captured by Kylo Ren.

She gets to be independent and dominant like Han, plus gets to play with the coolest of the SW toys - she gets Luke's lightsaber and Han's Millennium Falcon - as a kid you wanted both, but if you were playing Star Wars in the playground you only got to play either Han and have the Falcon or play Luke and have a lightsaber. Rey isn't written as a real character in the Star Wars universe, she's written a playground fantasy figure with a healthy dose of social identity politics by someone who's watched Star Wars and wants to make a Star Wars film rather than a film set in the Star Wars universe.

JJ's monumental cock-up is even worse than that, because even Han's Big Sexy Hero act is regularly undercut by his buffoonery. I will helpfully list some of them here with big sexy bullet points:
  • He buffoonishly dismisses Obi-wan's declaration that the Death Star is a space station and is subsequently shown to be a naive fool for doubting the masterful Obi-wan when he is pwned by the tractor beam
  • He has no way out of the corridor during the firefight until LEIA A.K.A. THE TRUE HERO OF THE OT saves him by leading them into the trash compactor
  • Han shoots first inside the trash compactor, narrowly avoiding killing either himself or one of the others when his bolt ricochets all over the shop
  • Han is toast in the trash compactor until Artoo and Threepio save him
  • Han idiotically runs after those stormtroopers into, like, seven whole battalions of stormtroopers
  • He has no way off the Death Star without Alpha Male Obi-wan taking the lead and shutting down the shields
  • His ship is a pile of crap that keeps breaking
  • He gets pwned by Vader and handed over to Boba Fett
  • He gets pwned by Jabba and handed over to the Sarlacc
  • He gets pwned by the Ewoks and hung over a fire
Wake me up when Rey gets pwned by the Ewoks and hung over a fire, amirite?
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Rey did get an ouchie on her head when Snoke bops her with the lightsaber, plus gets that scratch on her upper arm during the throne room fight so she didn’t get off that lightly I suppose.
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there there! that's the delightful spirit!
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No children for Luke. Han and Leia's only son is a school shooter. Everyone Luke trained since RETURN OF THE JEDI is dead at the hands of Kylo and his droogs. The New Republic government is stardust. Why did Disney Star Wars handicap themselves right out of the gate like that? None of those choices are necessarily deal breakers on their own but the cumulative effect of all of those "roads not taken" takes a toll.
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Barry has a point. It's like they systematically took every interesting thing about the state of the SW galaxy and killed it.
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Would people be as upset about the death of Luke Skywalker if he had children or students to carry on his legacy?
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Not doing a big family of Skywalker and Solo children and having a huge new cast of brothers and sisters having adventures in space is so obviously what you should do that it's slightly staggering that they did it. I've had to sort of softly smudge the prequels out of my head canon and bizarrely I have to do it with the new movies too.

It wasn't that hard to make good logical choices that fans would love, JJ. You silly goose!
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(02-18-2019, 03:08 AM)Bucho Wrote: Ryoken gets it. As all sexy Mavericks and Icemans know, The B-1, the B-58 and the F-111 all had ejection capsules which enclose the pilot, rather than seats, so the X-wings and Y-wings could've had something like that, no sweat. 

All sexy Biggs and Wedge, sir!

(02-18-2019, 08:31 AM)The Freeman Wrote: Barry has a point.  It's like they systematically took every interesting thing about the state of the SW galaxy and killed it.

Yes, because the original EU didnt and what interesting things did we get?

A bunch of S&M Hellraiser symbiote 90's edgelord bad guys:

[Image: YuuzhanVongwarriors.jpg?format=1000w]

A worse version of Starkiiller Base:

[Image: latest?cb=20080814040941]

And a worse version of Kylo Ren:

[Image: fe127ce22a4ac29bbd19f17e2ef331d18d12572c_hq.jpg]

And if I remember things right, there was a Jedi Master that was essentially a fucking Pokémon.

After all of that, the new trilogy is certainly an improvement IMO.
"Dictatorships foster oppression, dictatorships foster servitude, dictatorships foster cruelty; more abominable is the fact that they foster idiocy."

Xbox Live Gamer Tag: Strider Ryoken / PSN: Kenryo81 /Steam: Ryoken81
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Ryoken: "Giving the original trilogy heroes a tangible legacy is a gateway drug to the Yuuzhan Vong."
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Pointing out that the EU was awful and bad often doesn't mean anything.  Cancer is also bad. It doesn't change the fact that they've made bad terrible choices in the Disney era.  We've had the prequels to be able to say for the last twenty years "well it could be worse!"

The fact that it COULD be worse doesn't change my feelings about the Disney stuff that stinks.
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Its a fucking Star Wars sequel trilogy.
No matter what choices have and will be made, there will always be some people unhappy with them.
"Dictatorships foster oppression, dictatorships foster servitude, dictatorships foster cruelty; more abominable is the fact that they foster idiocy."

Xbox Live Gamer Tag: Strider Ryoken / PSN: Kenryo81 /Steam: Ryoken81
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But many of their choices have made the galaxy in the sequel trilogy era feel anemic and small. Contrast that with the ever expanding Marvel Cinematic Universe. Each new installment brings us new characters and possibilities, yet ties them together in a cohesive whole.
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....and there will always be people who DO enjoy them.

Being totally real here....do any of you honestly think I'm oblivious to all these flaws that get lamented ad infinitum? A movie can be imperfect as all hell....but if I still enjoyed it? Who cares? Once it's made...you just got what you got.*shrugs* it takes a special sort of suck for me to truly write it off. The fact that these are "just" Star Wars movies and not every one of them rivals Empire is just simply too high of a bar to set for everything. That'd be ideal....it's just not realistic..
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(02-18-2019, 09:42 AM)ryoken Wrote: Its a fucking Star Wars sequel trilogy.
No matter what choices have and will be made, there will always be some people unhappy with them.

There's a difference between "you can't please everybody" and actively making choices that people don't want. I bet 90 percent of average folks who are SW fans agree. It's like Vince Mcmahon actively telling his audience what's good when they all think he's dead wrong.
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Outside of the internet, Ive yet to encounter someone with a completely negative opinion of the sequels: most of my family, friends and coworkers who are star wars fans (either casual or devoted) are middle aged people who grew with the originals, or young adults who had the prequels as their generation star wars, and its positive reactions all around, even to Solo.
"Dictatorships foster oppression, dictatorships foster servitude, dictatorships foster cruelty; more abominable is the fact that they foster idiocy."

Xbox Live Gamer Tag: Strider Ryoken / PSN: Kenryo81 /Steam: Ryoken81
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But if Luke had a wife and kids or some padawans kicking around the galaxy they probably would have walked out.
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(02-18-2019, 10:14 AM)ryoken Wrote: Outside of the internet, Ive yet to encounter someone with a completely negative opinion of the sequels: most of my family, friends and coworkers who are star wars fans (either casual or devoted) are middle aged people who grew with the originals, or young adults who had the prequels as their generation star wars, and its positive reactions all around, even to Solo.
And as we all know, people on the Internet don't exist and therefore don't count.
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Thank you, Ryoken. I know SOOO many people who aren't cinephiles but DO really like movies, like Star Wars and care enough to pay attention to them that dig all the Disney Wars movies. The internet wants to make TLJ out to be some epic disaster but people that don't read forums like this aren't even aware that the internet has decreed that we're supposed to hate them. People on the internet just get completely fucking mental over ALL OF IT. Everything is "ruining my childhood!" The way that Last Jedi is crucified on a daily basis, you'd think it was Batman & Robin. If THIS is what's considered a zero or one star movie these days, that's just absurd..
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(02-18-2019, 10:14 AM)ryoken Wrote: Outside of the internet, Ive yet to encounter someone with a completely negative opinion of the sequels: most of my family, friends and coworkers who are  star wars fans (either casual or devoted) are middle aged people who grew with the originals, or young adults who had the prequels as their generation star wars, and its positive reactions all around, even to Solo.

And outside the internet, I've heard plenty of people who actively disliked TLJ based on the decisions made in the film. At Christmas that year, the students of the Middle School where I worked chose Jumanji over TLJ as the end-of-year film to attend at the locale theater (3 to 1, across 400 participants), whereas before TFA had commanded 2015. When I walked out of my second screening, an 8 year old behind me complained to his parents that "it didn't feel like Star Wars."

All extremely valid data variables, yes?

Or we can simply look at the film itself, apart from multi-million dollar advertising campaigns and legacy attendance and ideological determinations, and decide how well the plot holds up, or the thematic elements, or the character development, or tone, or basic scripting, or how well it (heh) leads into episode IX, or even technical aspects, and determine if this is a great Star Wars, a mediocre Star Wars, or a piss-poor Star Wars, due to lack of producer oversight, long-term planning, and general first-draft laziness across the board.

For many people, it's the latter.
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