Thread Rating:
  • 6 Vote(s) - 3.67 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Post-Release
Bucho, I'm pretty certain my initial question was the same.

The edit was only to add a couple of extra questions, not to clarify my initial question after you'd already responded

I'm not BARRY. I don't cheat with the edit feature.
Reply
(07-10-2018, 07:21 AM)Stale Elvis Wrote: I wish I could passively quit this thread.

for you, it could be and must be only an ACTIVE choice!
Reply
[Image: 36913897_10101014184649477_7624158998756...e=5BDE993C]
Reply
(07-10-2018, 01:37 AM)thecooleravian Wrote:
(07-10-2018, 01:08 AM)schwartz Wrote:
(07-09-2018, 11:00 PM)thecooleravian Wrote: How about there's a larger threat than even Snoke and Luke is out there countering that, instead of bothering with the relatively trivial Kylo Ren?

Then we should probably be watching a movie about that threat instead of the one with Snoke and Kylo?

Technically speaking, we kind of were, with all that talk of shadowy bankers who are funding both sides of the war to enrich themselves, but then TLJ just forgot about them.

(That's real subversion--not only anticlimactically dismissing plotlines someone else introduced, but also ones you yourself brought up.)

But actually Snoke and Kylo Ren as decoy antagonists could kind of work, I think. Imagine Kylo killing Snoke, the First Order about to wreck the Resistance--and then suddenly a third faction shows up and starts destroying everything.

A third faction? Ooooh, maybe they have an even bigger Death Star!
Reply
I’m shocked Barry’s immediate ‘third faction’ response wasn’t a three page treatise on the history of the Yuuzhan Vong.
Superlaser speaks for me from now on.

-Bart
Reply
(07-10-2018, 03:55 PM)schwartz Wrote: [Image: 36913897_10101014184649477_7624158998756...e=5BDE993C]

I think the main things the decent unhappy fans (as opposed to the very vocal contingent of racist/sexist fans) don't like boil down to -

- Snoke getting easily by Kylo Ren and being a red herring. A lot of people really fucking despise this. 
- Luke being depressed and miserable, and voluntarily removing himself from the fight.

I think a fanboy remake, were it ever to come about, and to A) somehow reflect an impossible poll of 'what you didn't like' (that somehow excluded the toxic contingent that pervade the times we live in) and B) be written by a competent writer, would have Snoke be some dark side god whom the First Order had accidentally awoken in the unknown regions. I actually like this idea, but I struggle to think of ways where it doesn't end up amounting to 'the Emperor - but even more powerful!' route, and having Kylo be the central villain is better. A Palpatine pretender who picks up where Sheev left off but can't last as long, clearing the stage for a more original, different flavour of villain, is a better path than Emperor II: bigger and b(l)a(n)dder.

Much as I champion TLJ, I also get the desire for badass Jedi Master Luke (which we ultimately got in as good a way as possible). If I were tailoring the film to the unhappy fans, I'd simply have Luke tell Rey, 'Thank God someone found me, a knight of Ren blew up my X-wing ages ago! I defeated them, but I've been stuck delving into the secrets of this island for the last five years. We're going to break into Snoke's ancient citadel in the uncharted systems, and try and put a stop to this right now. I'm afraid your training will have to take place on the job Rey. We've not a minute to lose!' Maybe have him be slightly kooky after years of isolation - Rey could even find his zen-like optimism and lack of bitterness irritating. The necessary darkness of the film could be Luke, retaining that optimism to the end, electing to go down fighting to distract a foe he knows he can't stop - much like he does in the film, but in person.
Reply
What I don’t get is, if they weren’t going to do anything with him and he was a red herring etc, why they needed Snoke in the first place. You can still have Kylo trashing the Jedi temple but after he was seduced by the dark side on his own - he delved too deeply etc. That makes perfect sense - That way there’s no “who the fuck is this dude and what he all about?”

Kylo didn’t need and Emperor 2.0 - he could have been setting himself up as 2.0 on his own terms and looking for an apprentice of his own (Rey) from the off.
Reply
(07-10-2018, 05:03 PM)Stale Elvis Wrote: What I don’t get is, if they weren’t going to do anything with him and he was a red herring etc, why they needed Snoke in the first place. You can still have Kylo trashing the Jedi temple but after he was seduced by the dark side on his own - he delved too deeply etc. That makes perfect sense - That way there’s no “who the fuck is this dude and what he all about?”

Kylo didn’t need and Emperor 2.0 - he could have been setting himself up as 2.0 on his own terms and looking for an apprentice of his own (Rey) from the off.

They didn't.

Look, I'm a JJ defender and I'm happy he's back for IX, but Snoke is the worst decision he made in The Force Awakens. Even moreso than Starkiller Base, Snoke is JJ panicking and saying, "Uhhhhh, the originals did that, so we should too!"

He doesn't have a purpose in that movie and he doesn't add anything to that movie. He's only there because of Palpatine's role in the originals.

Rian could have fleshed him out and played him up, but he'd still just be Darth Sidious Reboot Guy. Offing him the way the film does is one of my favorite things about THE LAST JEDI.
Reply
I think you need a Snoke figure to:

a) Account for the First Order (of course, they could've just had the First Order led by a military person). I know they don't explain the mechanics of it beyond 'arisen from the ashes of the Empire', but having Hux and co. report to Snoke automatically makes you figure that this powerful dude is responsible for bringing the shattered forces together.

b) Make Kylo a little more redeemable, at least in theory (regardless of how his story plays out). Someone who turns murderously nuts on their own is less likely than someone being groomed into it, though it's still possible. Doing so would make Kylo a born monster though, which is an even more bitter turn for the story to take.

Neither of those are necessary though: you certainly could remove the Snoke figure and have the story work out similarly. Ultimately, I suspect during the process words to the effect of 'you shitheads had better put an Emperor and a desert planet in this' were barked through a cloud of cocaine, and probably long before Abrams decided to make the Jedi Killer character Leia and Han's son.

We'll never know, but behind the scenes tonnes of TFA's most derivative aspects (and, bar the *shocking* 'Starkiller base is about to fire on the Rebel base' moment, which TFA doesn't even try to dress up, Snoke's the most carbon copy element in the film) must've been mandated from up high.
Reply
oh man, when I first saw snart appear via hologram in forwakens....


"oh no........"

and right after the appearance of DETHSTA3 too! (but I was at least prepped for that from the poster)
Reply
Nah, you do it like this:

During the 30-year gap, the leaderless remnants of the Empire post-ROTJ have been scrambling while on the run. That is, until the illustrious Luke Skywalker fucked it all up by losing his star pupil, the son of General Solo/Organa of the Rebellion. Being intimately familiar with their operations, his betrayal leads them from the verge of extinction, giving them life anew.
Reply
Snoke getting offed in TLJ in a super embarrassing way for him is most decidedly one of my favorite story elements of the movie. It was completely believable and yet (on first viewing) completely unexpected. Fucking great storytelling.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
Reply
(07-10-2018, 05:35 PM)MichaelM Wrote: Snoke getting offed in TLJ in a super embarrassing way for him is most decidedly one of my favorite story elements of the movie. It was completely believable and yet (on first viewing) completely unexpected. Fucking great storytelling.

Totally. It's one of those great twists that, once you've been surprised by it the first time, seems totally inevitable. The two criticisms of it I've heard are that...

1) The surprise is telegraphed because we see Kylo manipulate the lightsaber 10 seconds before he ignites it. That doesn't not make it a surprise! 

2) Snoke's commentary - '...ignites the saber, and KILLS HIS TRUE ENEMY!' - makes Kylo's plan blindingly clear. A - Snoke's totally confident, B - he's killed upon saying this, so he doesn't have time to go 'Wait...', and C - he's trying to vocalise Kylo's thoughts.
Reply
(07-10-2018, 04:45 PM)rexbanner Wrote: I think the main things the decent unhappy fans (as opposed to the very vocal contingent of racist/sexist fans) don't like boil down to -

- Snoke getting easily by Kylo Ren and being a red herring. A lot of people really fucking despise this. 
- Luke being depressed and miserable, and voluntarily removing himself from the fight.

I think a fanboy remake, were it ever to come about, and to somehow reflect an impossible poll of 'what you didn't like' (that somehow excluded the toxic contingent that pervade the times we live in), would have Snoke be some dark side god whom the First Order had accidentally awoken in the unknown regions. I actually like this idea, but I think it ultimately just amounts to an 'the Emperor - but even more powerful!' route, and having Kylo be the central villain is better. A Palpatine pretender who picks up where Sheev left off but can't last as long, clearing the stage for a more original villain, is a better path than the Emperor - bigger and badder.

Much as I champion TLJ, I also get the desire for badass Jedi Master Luke (which we ultimately fucking got in the best possible way, in a way more meaningful for coming after years of despair, but...). If I were tailoring the film to the unhappy fans, I'd simply have Luke tell Rey, 'Thank God someone found me, a knight of Ren blew up my X-wing ages ago! I defeated them, but I've been stuck delving into the secrets of this island for the last five years. We're going to break into Snoke's ancient citadel and try and put a stop to this right now - I'm afraid your training will have to take place on the job! We've not a minute to lose!' Maybe have him be a bit kooky after years of isolation.

I don't speak for any group larger than myself, plus maybe Overlord. But while I agree with your thoughts on Snoke, I would add to my gripes:


- Canto Bight being an unfortunate combination of heavy-handed thematics and uninspired design that goes on too long and 

- Accentuates the rickety nature of the entire slow-speed chase conceit

- SuperLeia cheating death made for a rousing moment that still felt like, well, a cheat

- Phasma being largely wasted once again

- Rose not being a very good character

The last bit, I would hasten to point out, does not having anything to do with her being a girl, or a sop to the Chinese market or whatever else.  Bucho, way back before he got himself locked into his customary semantic death spiral, was very astute in pointing out that adding another "eager beaver" was highly unnecessary, when TFA's trio of new heroes (quartet if you include BB-8) were already plucky-to-the-point-of-nonsense (in at least Finn's case).  Both she and Finn are so generally amiable that it sands down any entertaining friction in their interactions, which I find to be a rather confounding issue for the film to have in this one spot.  For starters, either characters' backstory could  easily and completely justify either of them taking a more hardnosed approach to the war with the FO, which would provide that friction and give them a more pronounced difference to get over and learn to modulate via their relationship.  So it seems like a weird instance of the movie allowing a fear of making any character slightly unlikable to neuter the potential for any actually interesting dynamics between those characters.  Which would be completely par for TFA's storytelling course, buuuut....

The rest of the movie does such a thorough, often pointed, job of correcting from that course.  Much of the ire it has drawn from fanboys (and what I love it for) has been the result of its willingness to muddy up Luke's golden boy image, because that is pretty much the only way to allow for any interesting dynamic between him and golden girl Rey.  And the whole grudgefuck hot mess between Rey and Kylo is the most fresh and delicious element of the new trilogy. 

And it actually overshoots the mark in mussing up Poe.  It's moving him in the right direction, and putting him in conflict with someone like Holdo is the right move in principle. But the set up jerks him from golden boy to Negligent Homicide Boy so quickly and thoroughly that it induces a degree of whiplash. This is accentuated by Holdo being an entirely new character who it would have made story sense to introduce previously, which I can see how that makes her feel somewhat like a straw(wo)man invented solely to castigate our Captain Awesome character for his (also newly-invented) faults.  So I guess I do see what upsets the manbabies so much about that dynamic.  But being on thorough, exhaustive record as detesting the Captain Awesome characterization from TFA, I find the drastic shift to be less morally or personally offensive than just dramatically clunky.  

But, getting back to the point I was making about Finn and Rose, it is baffling to me that RJ so clearly understands the need for character friction to throw off dramatic sparks, in every case but this one.  How does a movie written and directed by a single person wind up cutting directly between one subplot where it goes overboard contriving conflict between its heroic characters, and another where it backs so far off creating tension between its heroic characters that the entire thread feels inert?
Reply
(07-10-2018, 06:15 PM)schwartz Wrote:
(07-10-2018, 04:45 PM)rexbanner Wrote: I think the main things the decent unhappy fans (as opposed to the very vocal contingent of racist/sexist fans) don't like boil down to -

- Snoke getting easily by Kylo Ren and being a red herring. A lot of people really fucking despise this. 
- Luke being depressed and miserable, and voluntarily removing himself from the fight.

I think a fanboy remake, were it ever to come about, and to somehow reflect an impossible poll of 'what you didn't like' (that somehow excluded the toxic contingent that pervade the times we live in), would have Snoke be some dark side god whom the First Order had accidentally awoken in the unknown regions. I actually like this idea, but I think it ultimately just amounts to an 'the Emperor - but even more powerful!' route, and having Kylo be the central villain is better. A Palpatine pretender who picks up where Sheev left off but can't last as long, clearing the stage for a more original villain, is a better path than the Emperor - bigger and badder.

Much as I champion TLJ, I also get the desire for badass Jedi Master Luke (which we ultimately fucking got in the best possible way, in a way more meaningful for coming after years of despair, but...). If I were tailoring the film to the unhappy fans, I'd simply have Luke tell Rey, 'Thank God someone found me, a knight of Ren blew up my X-wing ages ago! I defeated them, but I've been stuck delving into the secrets of this island for the last five years. We're going to break into Snoke's ancient citadel and try and put a stop to this right now - I'm afraid your training will have to take place on the job! We've not a minute to lose!' Maybe have him be a bit kooky after years of isolation.

I don't speak for any group larger than myself, plus maybe Overlord [EDITOR: To a certain degree]. 
[Image: latest?cb=20130405010724]
Reply
I think we all know what the fans really wanted.

[Image: tumblr_inline_pbkoqpmvNu1r20b12_1280.jpg]
I always get the feeling [Boone Daniels] is one of those guys who talks for four hours about how much he respects women, and then it comes out that he sends pictures of his dick to sixth-graders.
Reply
they wanted VIDEO GAME HIGH SCHOOL???
Reply
Just finished The Last Jedi again.

Still love it. About as close to the OT as we're likely to get. If you're still not onboard the Luke train, then...

[Image: Ren%20angry.gif]
Reply
Great thread from Jonathan "Pop Culture Detective" McIntosh about Luke's motivation when he throws down his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi (this is apparently something some TLJ haters are confused about) versus when he throws it away at the beginning of TLJ: https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/...6655123456
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
Reply
I shouldn't be surprised these morons have been misinterpreting a character for 35 years, but I am.
Reply
I will never, ever understand how fanboys have been misunderstanding Luke for 40 years. Even in their beloved EU, Luke during the Legacy of the Force series has Jacen Solo/Darth Caedus defeated and decides to shut off his lightsaber and leave so he doesn't kill someone in anger. Later, Jacen fights his sister Jaina who brings him back to the light side before he dies in a moment of noble sacrifice.

Even the fucking EU understands the Jedi better than these TLJ haters!
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
Reply
(07-10-2018, 05:58 PM)rexbanner Wrote:
(07-10-2018, 05:35 PM)MichaelM Wrote: Snoke getting offed in TLJ in a super embarrassing way for him is most decidedly one of my favorite story elements of the movie. It was completely believable and yet (on first viewing) completely unexpected. Fucking great storytelling.

Totally. It's one of those great twists that, once you've been surprised by it the first time, seems totally inevitable. The two criticisms of it I've heard are that...

1) The surprise is telegraphed because we see Kylo manipulate the lightsaber 10 seconds before he ignites it. That doesn't not make it a surprise! 

2) Snoke's commentary - '...ignites the saber, and KILLS HIS TRUE ENEMY!' - makes Kylo's plan blindingly clear. A - Snoke's totally confident, B - he's killed upon saying this, so he doesn't have time to go 'Wait...', and C - he's trying to vocalise Kylo's thoughts.

Yeah, by "surprise" I meant in the general sense, not in the jump scare sense. Once we see Kylo force-fiddling with his light saber, we know what's going to happen - but until that moment, we never really suspected it.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
Reply
(07-10-2018, 09:54 AM)Nooj Wrote: Bucho, I'm pretty certain my initial question was the same.

The edit was only to add a couple of extra questions, not to clarify my initial question after you'd already responded

I'm not BARRY. I don't cheat with the edit feature.

I didn't really think you were cheating, you're world famous as an editor around these parts so I figured it was just a sitcom-esque misunderstanding IN REAL LIFE. I could swear when you initially posted the demand it was more general though. I legit thought you were still trying to get your head around my street use of "gathering intel".

Ironic that after all our quote fu over the last week I dropped the nunchuks on that one.

(07-11-2018, 01:15 PM)bartleby_scriven Wrote: Great thread from Jonathan "Pop Culture Detective" McIntosh about Luke's motivation when he throws down his lightsaber at the end of Return of the Jedi (this is apparently something some TLJ haters are confused about) versus when he throws it away at the beginning of TLJ: https://twitter.com/radicalbytes/status/...6655123456

It's that misunderstanding, plus the specific way Luke responds on the clifftop means the scene plays primarily as a gag. If Luke had rejected the weapon in some way other than the Spaceballs/Family Guy/Robot Chicken-esque toss over the shoulder it would've played better and maybe they'd have felt less "mocked" by it.
Reply
(hands nunchucks back to Bucho)

you take good care of that! for our next sensual tussle!
Reply
(07-10-2018, 05:12 PM)rexbanner Wrote: I think you need a Snoke figure to:

a) Account for the First Order (of course, they could've just had the First Order led by a military person). I know they don't explain the mechanics of it beyond 'arisen from the ashes of the Empire', but having Hux and co. report to Snoke automatically makes you figure that this powerful dude is responsible for bringing the shattered forces together.

b) Make Kylo a little more redeemable, at least in theory (regardless of how his story plays out). Someone who turns murderously nuts on their own is less likely than someone being groomed into it, though it's still possible. Doing so would make Kylo a born monster though, which is an even more bitter turn for the story to take.

Neither of those are necessary though: you certainly could remove the Snoke figure and have the story work out similarly. Ultimately, I suspect during the process words to the effect of 'you shitheads had better put an Emperor and a desert planet in this' were barked through a cloud of cocaine, and probably long before Abrams decided to make the Jedi Killer character Leia and Han's son.

We'll never know, but behind the scenes tonnes of TFA's most derivative aspects (and, bar the *shocking* 'Starkiller base is about to fire on the Rebel base' moment, which TFA doesn't even try to dress up, Snoke's the most carbon copy element in the film) must've been mandated from up high.

1. You don't, because like you said they didn't explain the mechanics of it. What we need to explain The First Order without needing to explain the mechanics is someone like Mengele from Boy from Brazil. Someone that's just clearly a guy that was around and part of the Empire when the Empire was a thing. Snoke just raises too many questions because this guy couldn't have been part of the Empire before, because we sure as hell would have heard about him if he had. So then you start wondering who the hell this guy is, how did he come to rule over The First Order, is he doing that openly or secretly, where and what was this guy doing during the events of the Original Trilogy? Snoke isn't there to explain the First Order, he's there to raise a bunch of questions.

2. I'm not exactly sure Snoke is meant to make Kylo more redeemable. Kylo is the head of a ring of evil Jedi that destroyed Luke's Jedi Academy assumingly full of other students, and he kills his father who is popular Star Wars character Han Solo in the movie he's introduced in. I'm not even sure The Force Awakens says anything about Snoke turning them. For all we know The Knights of Ren could have started as some kind of Dead Poets Society of forbidden knowledge and after everything with Luke and the school they sought out ancient darkside user Snoke.

Funny thing about Snoke being a carbon copy element is their is no Emperor in Star Wars, (the 1977 movie which they're remaking with TFA) and he's so open because the movie doesn't actually give us any information on him that he could have been made into something that wasn't like the Empire at all. I mean we assume he's like the Emperor because it's Star Wars, he seems to be filling that Emperor role, and we're savvy about such things; but the movie doesn't actually tell you anything, not really. I'm trying to remember, do we even see Snoke use the Force in The Force Awakens? I mean we assume he can, he talks about training, but I don't think we actually even know if he can in The Force Awakens. It wouldn't be the first time in fiction someone without powers helped someone with powers train.
Reply
Caught this on Netflix after first having seen it in the theater on opening weekend. I have to say it was actually a lot better the second time. The film is so dense and there is so much to take in that watching a 2nd or even 3rd time is almost required to appreciate it more.

It is still a little too long and some things could have certainly been cut especially the entire casino nonsense and even Del Torro's character could have been cut and the movie wouldn't have skipped a beat.

The best parts of the film are anything with Luke, Rey, and Kylo. The film could have been about that entire trio and it would have been a classic.
Reply
I've been saying that since I walked out. I ADORE just about every single aspect of the A plot. Rey is no longer annoying but actually a character I actively enjoy and feel invested in. Kylo continues on an interesting path for Kylo and Luke is also very interesting. I dare see he's MUCH more interesting than if we just pulled a "Han in TFA" again and gave the fans exactly what they think they want out of Luke Skywalker. I adore the A plot.

... It's the B and the C plots that are such mixed bags for me still. Things about them work, but things about them also fall flat on their face and fail...
Reply
That's a nice summary of how I felt about the entire Resistance plot. Although I really like Poe and Finn as characters that entire plot just sorta mulled along. It's really not much different from what we saw in the OT.

My fear is that what we got in TLJ with regards to the Resistance and First Order won't be all that much different from what we'll get in Ep. 9.
Reply


Reply
a bunch of youtubefaces!
Reply
I bet that guy is Barry. That's what Barry asks so many "what ifs?" He's trying to engage us like we're his Youtoob PEONS!
Reply
That is the hairdo of a guy who saw a Flowbee on the as-seen-on-TV shelf at the Wal-Mart checkout and decided that running his Shop Vac wand through after putting in his "product" was close enough.
Reply
(07-14-2018, 07:16 PM)freeman Wrote: I've been saying that since I walked out.  I ADORE just about every single aspect of the A plot.  Rey is no longer annoying but actually a character I actively enjoy and feel invested in.  Kylo continues on an interesting path for Kylo and Luke is also very interesting.  I dare see he's MUCH more interesting than if we just pulled a "Han in TFA" again and gave the fans exactly what they think they want out of Luke Skywalker.  I adore the A plot.

...  It's the B and the C plots that are such mixed bags for me still.  Things about them work, but things about them also fall flat on their face and fail...

I kind of felt like she was less interesting in this movie, but what worked about her story line was Kylo Ren and the occasionally Luke moment. Rey in The Force Awakens felt like a fairly boring character Daisy Ridley seemed to bring enough to that hopefully they'd capitalize on it in the sequel, but The Last Jedi did nothing at all with what charisma she seemed to bring before.
Reply
Sure it did. It explored the heart of her characters struggle with her identity and her place in the galaxy instead of making her a plucky one note feminism joke about how competent Rey is and how she doesn't need help, gently propped up by vague mystery about her parents. There's not much "there" present for Rey's character, arguably, ever. But I would say there's a lot less going on for her in TFA than TLJ.
Reply
   
   
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)