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GoT: House of the Dragon pre-release Discussion spawned by Freeman's love of S8
#1
[Image: House-of-the-Dragon-Game-of-Thrones-Preq...2-2047.jpg]



I've been on record here (and a few other places) as being surprised at how much I liked Fire & Blood (except for the Jahaerys section, which of the four "cycles" in the novel was easily the most boring).  

The Dance of the Dragons cycle was, IMHO, fantastic.  Bloody, incestuous, and full of twists and turns that was Martin at his best.  It's also incredibly sad and foreshadows the eventual final demise of House Targaryen (as depicted in the show, at least).  

I think this show also has a chance to maybe fix some of the narratives surrounding the final season of Game of Thrones.  By portraying the Targaryen dynasty in all its ruthless, selfish, dragon-driven frenzy of destruction it may make it more palatable (and understandable) that Daenerys is seen as the last in a line of ruthless tyrants rather than a fan-favorite young queen subjected to a barely-fleshed-out-and-arguably-unearned heel turn.

Dance of the Dragons is THE story I would want to see adapted, far moreso than Dunk and Egg, or Aegon's conquest, or Naomi Watts's weird prequel series.  I'm torn between telling folks to go out and read it or to wait and be surprised by the show.

**Miguel Sapochnik (!!) is show-runner and Ryan Condal will do most of the writing.

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#2
deleted pointless assholery

ETA: apologies for the tone. It's been a long fucking day and my social skills aren't at their peak ATM. Sorry, Ovie.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#3
(10-29-2019, 08:25 PM)MichaelM Wrote: JFC, no goddamn Egg and Dunk. I read those collected stories and fell asleep numerous times.

This has the potential to be good but NGL: at the moment pretty burned out on all things GRMM.

Gimme my Memory, Sorrow and Thorn adaptation, please.

Fuddy duddying has commenced!

**Oh, I'm just joshing you. I can definitely see GRRM 'burnout!"

I just happened to have been absolutely stunned by the DotD sequence in Fire & Blood. Been a while since I've been up till 4am reading ....

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#4
Can they do what they should have done in the first place and bring Naomi Watts onto this as a Targaryen?
Superlaser speaks for me from now on.

-Bart
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#5
(10-29-2019, 08:28 PM)Overlord Wrote: I just happened to have been absolutely stunned by the DotD sequence in Fire & Blood.  Been a while since I've been up till 4am reading ....

You keep pimping that out. I may have to actually give it a try.

And again, sorry. The post was dumb and unnecessary.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#6
(10-29-2019, 08:29 PM)superlaser Wrote: Can they do what they should have done in the first place and bring Naomi Watts onto this as a Targaryen?

I can think of a perfect role for her ....

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#7
For the series, Ovie. For the series.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#8
(10-29-2019, 08:34 PM)MichaelM Wrote: For the series, Ovie. For the series.

bwahahahahahahAAHAHAHAHAHWHWHWAHAHAHAH

Well-earned, on my part.

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#9
King Ghidorah the series? Cool. Does this also tiw into the MonsterVere?
Git' in under mah belly!
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#10
Wait, is Overlord going by "Ovie" now? Is this a hockey club?

Come to think of it, there was a lot of Puck talk over in the Trumpocalypse thread...
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#11
I’d prefer to see Ageon’s conquest over Dance of Dragons.
"Every romantic comedy should just be called "Tryin' to Fuck" - Patton Oswalt
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#12
(10-29-2019, 09:14 PM)Paul755 Wrote: I’d prefer to see Ageon’s conquest over Dance of Dragons.



Maybe we will get both.

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#13
So is this book you love so much actually stories and characters, or is it a book of LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE?
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#14
(10-29-2019, 11:55 PM)freeman Wrote: So is this book you love so much actually stories and characters, or is it a book of LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE?

Silmarillion-esque.

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#15
That sounds like an interesting book for fans of the world and it's history and a terrrrrrrrrrrrrible basis for a television show.
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#16
Why is it a "terrrrrrrrrrrrrible" basis for a television show? Particularly if you have the creator of that world actually working with the showrunners. Sure, a more detailed blueprint would be ideal, but "terrrrrrrrrrrrrible"? Seems like you're just saying negative shit to say it. Unless you're secretly Charles Barkley.
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#17
(10-30-2019, 02:44 AM)freeman Wrote: That sounds like an interesting book for fans of the world and it's history and a terrrrrrrrrrrrrible basis for a television show.

You haven't even read the work in question ...

And while I would agree that some of it (the reign of Jahaerys the Takes-Up-Too-Much-of-the-Book goes on forever) is a bit dry, much of it is fantastic plotting full of betrayals and bloody surprises that we've come to accept from GRRM.

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#18
(10-30-2019, 04:29 AM)bailey Wrote: Why is it a "terrrrrrrrrrrrrible" basis for a television show? Particularly if you have the creator of that world actually working with the showrunners. Sure, a more detailed blueprint would be ideal, but "terrrrrrrrrrrrrible"? Seems like you're just saying negative shit to say it. Unless you're secretly Charles Barkley.

Because the books were an extremely compelling narrative formed over years and basically written in the perfect format and structure to be adapted into 10 episode seasons of television. When I think of the Silmarillion I think of interesting facts and tidbits. It's not an actual narrative basis for a story, is it?

Yes Bailey, you're absolutely correct. I'm being perhaps a bit too negative about this, but at the same time I think that's entirely justified right now considering the last time this franchise veered off of carefully curated narrative that had been wonderfully formed over the course of years, it went poorly. No, having a Silmarillion type thing is probably NOT a terrrrrrrrrible basis for a television show, at the very least the LOOOOOOOOOORE around the story and the characters will probably be interesting and the world building will be neat.

I'm just as nervous about the Lord of The Rings show for similar reasons. You're going away from Tolkien the storyteller and I've just sort of got to trust that whoever is in that writers room is going to take that worlds supplimentary material and make it into a really compelling narrative... I wish them all luck! It's an uphill climb.

(10-30-2019, 04:35 AM)Overlord Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 02:44 AM)freeman Wrote: That sounds like an interesting book for fans of the world and it's history and a terrrrrrrrrrrrrible basis for a television show.

You haven't even read the work in question ...

And while I would agree that some of it (the reign of Jahaerys the Takes-Up-Too-Much-of-the-Book goes on forever) is a bit dry, much of it is fantastic plotting full of betrayals and bloody surprises that we've come to accept from GRRM.

Oh, well there you go! There is actually plot and characters and it's not just a bunch of shit that happened. Encouraging.
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#19
Out of all the extended LOOOOOOOOOORE from A Song of Ice and Fire this is probably the best one to adapt into an actual show. So I'm down to clown.

I still want to see that Naomi Watts pilot cause damn that must have been bad for how quickly they slit that show's throat.
"I mean don't get me wrong fucking the wolf man is impressive but ugh." - Waaaaaaaalt
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#20
I had no idea that one was basically like stone aged. Westeros cave men.
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#21
The advantage using FIRE AND BLOOD is that it's fucking finished. Sure, it's not one detailed story like ASOIAF....but it IS complete. The showrunners and writers and directors all can know exactly what they're aiming at and (hopefully) do a consistently good job getting us there.

And I can't agree about the SILMARILLION being a terrible book for film or TV adaptation. Sure, some of it is kind of dry and list-ty. But a LOT of it isn't. I'd fucking LOVE to see a great visual adaptation of the fall of Numenor and seeing the King of the Noldor's doomed fight against Morgoth.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#22
What is Fire and Blood? A listing of Targ history and progressing through hundreds of years and several dynasties I'm gathering from Overlord?

How does that work as a TV show? Each season is it's own thing and it's own cast like an anthology show?
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#23
(10-30-2019, 08:31 AM)freeman Wrote: What is Fire and Blood? A listing of Targ history and progressing through hundreds of years and several dynasties I'm gathering from Overlord?

How does that work as a TV show? Each season is it's own thing and it's own cast like an anthology show?

It tells how the Targs came to and conquered Westeros. Then how they ruled. By the end of the book they aren’t up to where the first book starts but supposedly there is a vol 2 coming that gets us up to the Mad King.

Depends on how many seasons they want. But it could work as either an anthology or they could pick one of the reigns to focus on.
"Every romantic comedy should just be called "Tryin' to Fuck" - Patton Oswalt
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#24
I'll take everyone's word for it that the book is excellent. Martin is great so I'm sure it is. But I find it hard to become invested in the rise and fall of a family who will ultimately collapse into madness and extreme genocide before quietly dying off forever.

It's sort of similar to how JJ and company killing off the Skywalker lineage fucking sucks the enthusiasm out of the room for a story you love.
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#25
The curious thing to me would be: where would you end such a series?

One columnist suggested ending on Dany's birth... that'd be a real wet fart of ending.

Any ending around Robert's Rebellion would run afoul of both ending on events we know well or have even seen, and leading directly into a story whose ending was not well received.

An anthology would actually be really cool... but seemingly SUPER expensive. you'd avoid a lot of the ending problems by having an "ending" each season... but the need for a new cast and a huge event finale every year would seem like big problems.

But I really do think the key to this series is cracking where a satisfying ending would come from. The Targaryans are a doomed dynasty; so what is the point? (That's not rhetorical)
Gamertag: Tweakee
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#26
(10-30-2019, 11:40 PM)freeman Wrote:  But I find it hard to become invested in the rise and fall of a family who will ultimately collapse into madness and extreme genocide before quietly dying off forever.

This sounds like sour grapes over being mad about the ending of GoT.  You can't get invested in tragedies? Knowing how a story is going to end doesn't make it not compelling. Also, there are probably many non-Targaryen characters whose fates we will also be invested in, if the show is any good.
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#27
(10-30-2019, 11:50 PM)bailey Wrote:
(10-30-2019, 11:40 PM)freeman Wrote:  But I find it hard to become invested in the rise and fall of a family who will ultimately collapse into madness and extreme genocide before quietly dying off forever.

This sounds like sour grapes over being mad about the ending of GoT.  You can't get invested in tragedies? Knowing how a story is going to end doesn't make it not compelling. Also, there are probably many non-Targaryen characters whose fates we will also be invested in, if the show is any good.

It doesn't sound like that, it very obviously literally is that. I'm not hiding anything here.
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#28
(10-30-2019, 11:50 PM)farsight Wrote: The curious thing to me would be: where would you end such a series?

One columnist suggested ending on Dany's birth... that'd be a real wet fart of ending.

Any ending around Robert's Rebellion would run afoul of both ending on events we know well or have even seen, and leading directly into a story whose ending was not well received.

An anthology would actually be really cool... but seemingly SUPER expensive. you'd avoid a lot of the ending problems by having an "ending" each season... but the need for a new cast and a huge event finale every year would seem like big problems.

But I really do think the key to this series is cracking where a satisfying ending would come from. The Targaryans are a doomed dynasty; so what is the point? (That's not rhetorical)

That’s why I think Ageon and his Queens conquering Westeros would be enough for the series. You can end it with him finally getting that last kingdom to bend the knee or you could carry it on through the fall of his two terrible sons.
"Every romantic comedy should just be called "Tryin' to Fuck" - Patton Oswalt
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#29
Yeah, I totally don't get Freeman's point. Was The TUDORS a shitty show because England is no longer ruled by Welsh monarchs? Did ROME suck because we knew the empire would eventually fall anyway? Is THE GODFATHER ruined because the sequels establish that Michael's descendants don't run the underworld in perpetuity? Is MAD MEN pointless because businesses don't let their managers get plastered at noon in the office anymore?
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#30
And yet, despite your excellent counterpoint I don't give a single fuck about Star Wars without Luke and the Skywalkers in it.

EXPLAIN THAT Mr. Smarty pants!
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#31
(10-31-2019, 12:27 AM)freeman Wrote: And yet, despite your excellent counterpoint I don't give a single fuck about Star Wars without Luke and the Skywalkers in it.

EXPLAIN THAT Mr. Smarty pants!

They haven't been that good?

I mean, I rep ROGUE ONE, but most people think it's kinda crap.
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#32
Quote: Is MAD MEN pointless because businesses don't let their managers get plastered at noon in the office anymore?

Wait, they don't anymore???

Shit, that meeting with HR today makes a lot more sense now.
"I mean don't get me wrong fucking the wolf man is impressive but ugh." - Waaaaaaaalt
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#33
(10-31-2019, 12:25 AM)schwartz Wrote: Yeah, I totally don't get Freeman's point.  Was The TUDORS a shitty show because England is no longer ruled by Welsh monarchs?  Did ROME suck because we knew the empire would eventually fall anyway?   Is THE GODFATHER ruined because the sequels establish that Michael's descendants don't run the underworld in perpetuity?  Is MAD MEN pointless because businesses don't let their managers get plastered at noon in the office anymore?

None of those were prequels. You mixed a bunch of different situations together there, none of which really apply.

This is more akin to if they announced a new Star Wars trilogy based on Han's grandpa.

Prequels already face an uphill climb. Their batting average is terrible. This one faces the added challenge of not really being able to invoke the story it's a prequel to without losing a large chunk of its audience.

Of course it could turn out great. And I dig fantasy, so I'll be giving it a shot. But I'll be surprised if it works.
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