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Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-Release Discussion)
Making Rey's parents nice is the literal worst. Now leaving her with that awful slaver alien makes NO sense. It's even worse than Harry Potters parents leaving him to his Moms monster aunt. You made them nice people and you CREATED a plot hole for no functional reason. You just wanted her parents to be kind to her.

You IDIOT.
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(12-23-2019, 05:20 AM)rexbanner Wrote: Ben's turn back also makes sense to me, in a way it didn't first time round. It's been repeatedly established that he's unhappy being evil

This is a really funny sentence.
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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(12-23-2019, 06:26 AM)freeman Wrote: Making Rey's parents nice is the literal worst.  Now leaving her with that awful slaver alien makes NO sense.  It's even worse than Harry Potters parents leaving him to his Moms monster aunt.  You made them nice people and you CREATED a plot hole for no functional reason.  You just wanted her parents to be kind to her.  

You IDIOT.

And it wasn't Potter's parents that did that, it was Dumbledore. 

The 'TLJ shat all over JJ's plans for Rey's parents' narrative has always confounded me, because the answer given in TLJ is what makes the most sense given the information in TFA. JJ's not retconning TLJ, he's retconning TFA and TLJ. 

Also, 'woman lies to herself to avoid facing the truth that her parents didn't love her, yet makes something of herself' is a far, far, FAR more dramatic and emotionally real angle than 'woman unsure about her parents' motives discovers that they sold her into slavery to protect her from her evil grandfather - who was Emperor of the galaxy, and whose existence she has never acknowledged before'.
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(12-23-2019, 01:56 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent and say that I'm continuing to like this movie the more I think about!

The dumb stuff is still REALLY dumb, but the two most important things -- Rey and Kylo -- really work for me.

Pretty much. It's all lizard-brain stuff - fun dialogue, thrills, good action (that fight on top of the downed Death Star is my favourite in the trilogy), characters I enjoy hanging out with - but it's there in droves. The film really needed a proper Ben/Leia moment but they made do with what they had.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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(12-21-2019, 12:14 PM)Belloq87 Wrote: I also woke up with this stuck in my head, and have proceeded to play it on loop all morning...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_conti...e=emb_logo

Has John Williams written a catchier action cue in the past decade-plus?  I don't think so!

It's similar to this one, which I think has more personality:


"I'd rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth."--Steve McQueen
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There are two lines in this film which are among the most fucking stupid put to paper. On my first viewing I assumed I'd misheard or just hadn't got what was going on.

"They sold you to protect you."

And, swiftly after: "She's not on Jakku. She's gone."

Plus, Simon Pegg has no issue buying and selling people; Simon Pegg is neither smart nor physically powerful.
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This thread is the reason the interwebs were created...
...don't do it
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So... "Ochi is a "Jedi hunter"/Sith loyalist who Sheev, who must have been alive since at least 15 ABY or so, sent out to capture his granddaughter. He found Rey's parents on Jakku but they sold (!!) their daughter to Unkar Plutt to protect her, then he captured them and took off in his ship (even though Rey was standing RIGHT THERE YELLING AT THE SHIP TO COME BACK). When he couldn't get the parents to speak about Rey's whereabouts, he killed them with his ceremonial dagger, which he had specifically carved to visually demonstrate the location of Sheev's Wayfinder within the wreckage of the Death Star if you hold the dagger up at a certain angle and stand on a certain spot of land. For some reason. He also inscribed on the dagger in the Sith runes the coordinates to find the DSII pieces. He then went to Pasaana, for some reason, and Luke and Lando were chasing him presumably because he's a Jedi hunter and he knew the way to Exegol, which they wanted to find for reasons, but he died when he stepped into quicksand outside his parked ship and got eaten by a snake."

That's the plot.
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Yep. Sounds very, very JJ Abrams-y.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(12-23-2019, 08:49 AM)freeman Wrote: So... "Ochi is a "Jedi hunter"/Sith loyalist who Sheev, who must have been alive since at least 15 ABY or so, sent out to capture his granddaughter. He found Rey's parents on Jakku but they sold (!!) their daughter to Unkar Plutt to protect her, then he captured them and took off in his ship (even though Rey was standing RIGHT THERE YELLING AT THE SHIP TO COME BACK). When he couldn't get the parents to speak about Rey's whereabouts, he killed them with his ceremonial dagger, which he had specifically carved to visually demonstrate the location of Sheev's Wayfinder within the wreckage of the Death Star if you hold the dagger up at a certain angle and stand on a certain spot of land. For some reason. He also inscribed on the dagger in the Sith runes the coordinates to find the DSII pieces. He then went to Pasaana, for some reason, and Luke and Lando were chasing him presumably because he's a Jedi hunter and he knew the way to Exegol, which they wanted to find for reasons, but he died when he stepped into quicksand outside his parked ship and got eaten by a snake."

That's the plot.

And for a lot of people this ludicrous nonsense is more satisfying than the fundamentally good message behind 'she was abandoned by scummy parents, but the universal, life-derived life force of this galaxy doesn't discriminate between the lowliest, most ill-treated urchin and the mightiest emperor'.
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I loved the elegance of Rian's gentle assurances to the detail-oriented "We have so many crazy Snoke theories!" fanbase that the identity of Rey's parents doesn't matter at all. The thing that is fundamentally wrong inside of her, her wound, her error that is holding her back is her inability to realize she has everything she needs inside of her and in her potential future if only she would find the inner peace to get there. TLJ builds Reys story PERFECTLY out of TFA.

Then this movie snaps it back the other direction in the entirely superficial and "we have so many theories!" sense and it all has very little meaningful change in Rey that I can tell.
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I did like the parentage reveal in the previous film, and was disappointed by the way they walked it back in this one, but Anakin was a nobody so it's not exactly like the films have never done this. Also, Jedis are by their nature chosen ones (Rey most of all since she was preternaturally gifted with zero training). There's simply no way to get around that.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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(12-23-2019, 09:09 AM)Evi Wrote: I did like the parentage reveal in the previous film, and was disappointed by the way they walked it back in this one, but Anakin was a nobody so it's not exactly like the films have never done this.
Wait wasn't Anakin made by Palpatine with force magic or whatever?
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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It was HEAVILY implied by Palpatine and then all but confirmed in a canon comic book yes.
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Then hardly a nobody! Force magic!
“I call upon you to stop this musical now,” she said to the board. “You tear a community apart if you don’t.” -Prachi Ruina                                                            
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I don’t think I care who Rey’s parents were. I don’t think that plot point moves the needle remotely for me, in either film.
Brigadier Cousins on PSN
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(12-23-2019, 09:09 AM)Evi Wrote: I did like the parentage reveal in the previous film, and was disappointed by the way they walked it back in this one, but Anakin was a nobody so it's not exactly like the films have never done this. Also, Jedis are by their nature chosen ones (Rey most of all since she was preternaturally gifted with zero training). There's simply no way to get around that.

I think the way to "get around that" is built right into one of themes of TLJ: the very point that Luke makes about the Jedi thinking the Force belonged to them, when it was the other way around. TLJ strongly hints at not a continuation of the Jedi but something more inclusive and less ego-driven.

Which TROS promptly trashes.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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(12-23-2019, 09:21 AM)MichaelM Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 09:09 AM)Evi Wrote: I did like the parentage reveal in the previous film, and was disappointed by the way they walked it back in this one, but Anakin was a nobody so it's not exactly like the films have never done this. Also, Jedis are by their nature chosen ones (Rey most of all since she was preternaturally gifted with zero training). There's simply no way to get around that.

I think the way to "get around that" is built right into one of themes of TLJ: the very point that Luke makes about the Jedi thinking the Force belonged to them, when it was the other way around. TLJ strongly hints at not a continuation of the Jedi but something more inclusive and less ego-driven.

Which TROS promptly trashes.

Which the ending of TLJ leaned heavily into with broomstick boy, and would have made a decent way to explain how Finn is force sensitive.

But nah.  IT CAUSE SHES SPEEECIAL.

“I never lied to you. Your parents were nobodies—to save you”

I’m pretty sure everyone in that theater heard me groan at that line.  It’s crazy how I knew everything that was going to happening, and still ended up pissed off.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Yeah it didn't belong to them but they still don't earn the force, it chooses them. Which, again, makes all the Jedi chosen ones. They're special no matter what.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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(12-23-2019, 09:28 AM)Evi Wrote: Yeah it didn't belong to them but they still don't earn the force, it chooses them. Which, again, makes all the Jedi chosen ones. They're special no matter what.

It’s less that and more that being a boss ass Jedi master didn’t rely on lineage.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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(12-23-2019, 09:20 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: I don’t think I care who Rey’s parents were. I don’t think that plot point moves the needle remotely for me, in either film.

Which is basically a roundabout way of saying you don't care about the Rey character generally, as her parentage is her key "issue", and if you don't give a fuck about that, hard to care about her overall.
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The lineage thing isn't really something I felt very deeply I guess. I never looked at the entire Jedi Order and assumed they were all princes and princesses of The Force.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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(12-23-2019, 06:26 AM)waaaaaaaalt Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 05:20 AM)rexbanner Wrote: Ben's turn back also makes sense to me, in a way it didn't first time round. It's been repeatedly established that he's unhappy being evil

This is a really funny sentence.

So tired of being evil, y'all. Guess I got to-got to TRY A LITTLE TENDERNESS...
the empire never ended
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(12-23-2019, 03:10 AM)Bucho Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 01:56 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent and say that I'm continuing to like this movie the more I think about!

The dumb stuff is still REALLY dumb, but the two most important things -- Rey and Kylo -- really work for me.

I've seen it 3 times and it's like TLJ ... the good stuff gets better and the not so good stuff gets not so gooder, and, also like TLJ, it's held at a wonky 7/10 each time in terms of overall entertainment value. The highs are higher in TLJ, but TROS is more consistently engaging.

Each time Hux's "I'm the spy!" moment has been the best joke in the film and each time Poe's dramatic "Somehow Palpatine is still alive" declaration is the most unintentionally funny. 

And also each time Chewie breaking down hits the hardest in the feels.
  There is no way that any of TROS is ever remotely comparable to whatever problems you might have had with TLJ.  

Consistently engaging?  How?  There are literally moments where characters decide to do shit based on whether or not it’d look cool in a trailer shots.  The action sequences ar fucking terrible, and most of the plot points prove to be fucking largely inconsequential.  Like I don’t give a shit about C3PO, but everything regarding that, from everyone just casually being okay with mindraping the droid to the bullshit solution they gave was fucking stupid.

TROS is what people were trying to claim about TLJ: an actual fucking clusterfuck.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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Funny how all the various Star Wars movies are on Disney+ except The Last Jedi, which is chilling on Netflix like some banished bastard child.
the empire never ended
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Quote:Consistently engaging?  How?

ska with one of his masterful "HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY LIKE SOMETHING I FUCKING DIDN'T?!?!?!??!" responses.
I was in a horror-comedy called BLACK HOLLER. It's now on Prime Video. Check it out!
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(12-23-2019, 09:32 AM)freeman Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 09:20 AM)arjen rudd Wrote: I don’t think I care who Rey’s parents were. I don’t think that plot point moves the needle remotely for me, in either film.

Which is basically a roundabout way of saying you don't care about the Rey character generally, as her parentage is her key "issue", and if you don't give a fuck about that, hard to care about her overall.

I didn’t really care about any of the new characters, beyond the actor’s charisma. Finn I thought I was gonna. But I only really did in TFA.
Brigadier Cousins on PSN
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(12-23-2019, 10:13 AM)Mangy Wrote:
Quote:Consistently engaging?  How?

ska with one of his masterful "HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY LIKE SOMETHING I FUCKING DIDN'T?!?!?!??!" responses.

Yeah..no.  Considering the bullshit surrounding TLJ, fuuuuuck people trying to give TROS a pass.

You like TROS despite its, to put it nicely, “problems.” Sure I get that. I get seeing the Star Wars and just liking it because it’s more of The Star War. I just can’t gel with the idea that TLJ and TROS are remotely the same. I don’t have those ties with the franchise, but I get it. But TLJ works as a movie where as TROS only really works as Mastubatory fanfiction, and even then that’s stretching it.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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(12-23-2019, 01:56 AM)Belloq87 Wrote: I guess I'll be the lone voice of dissent and say that I'm continuing to like this movie the more I think about!

The dumb stuff is still REALLY dumb, but the two most important things -- Rey and Kylo -- really work for me.
Excepting the passionate kiss they share (a little too lusty for the situation), I agree that Kylo and Rey actually work.  But that’s why I’m incredibly disappointed in this film.  Because everything else effectively detracts and short-sells this narrative thread.  Everything else feels like a bad Saturday morning cartoon.  And a chunk of the Kylo/Rey works because of the lifting TLJ did.

This further cements my opinion of Abrams, though.  A hack, trading on old visionaries and their stories.
I'm not Avery.
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Nope, still doing the "HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY LIKE SOMETHING I FUCKING DIDN'T?!?!?!??!" thing.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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Fine, I’ll make it easier. Yes, I think you’re wrong.

It’s okay to enjoy trash. I do it all the time. But it is trash.
"Why did she do it?"
"Why are you the fucking Police?"

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(12-23-2019, 03:10 AM)Bucho Wrote: and each time Poe's dramatic "Somehow Palpatine is still alive" declaration is the most unintentionally funny. 

I think we can almost see Oscar Isaac realizing the burden of selling it is on him. He tries.

(12-23-2019, 05:20 AM)rexbanner Wrote: Ben's turn back also makes sense to me, in a way it didn't first time round. It's been repeatedly established that he's unhappy being evil; his mother's just confirmed that she still loves him; he's literally spent sixty seconds dying from a saber in the gut, so he'll have had the clarity and regret that comes with that; and Rey's just told him that she'd go out with him if he was good.

While there were some clear missed opportunities (I still don't understand how you DON'T have Luke Skywalker or Anakin Skywalker appear to him at some point), I think this was executed as well as it could have been... given that they couldn't really use Carrie Fisher.

And given that having him survive was apparently off the table (unfortunately).

(12-23-2019, 07:11 AM)hammerhead Wrote: It's similar to this one, which I think has more personality:



That's a great setpiece.
If we can dream it, then we can do it.
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The weird thing is that JJ has written some of the best TV pilots ever produced (Alias, Lost, Fringe). Each created likable characters and a world for their shows to succeed while also telling entertaining stories, all in less than 90 minutes. He knows setups and premises as well as any writer working.

Yet TROS suffers most because two previous films did a terrible job of setting up an epic finale. Two films in and the story was less far along than the OT was after Star Wars. By the end of Empire, the OT had set up its final villain, a romance, Luke's parentage, and given him his setback to establish doubt in his future, while also giving the next film its first story beat. TROS has to do all that heavy lifting itself, and it suffers from it.
Gamertag: Tweakee
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We needed episode 9 to set up the return of the Emperor and episode 10 to be...this film, I guess.

I still can't believe that the return of the big, bad Emperor was reduced to THE DEAD SPEAK in the opening crawl.
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The LOST pilot is still to this day one of the greatest pilots of all time. It's probably no coincidence that it relies heavily on mystery to drive our interest and that inherently most questions were open ended.
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