Poll: Does the last scene in TDK work great or not?
This poll is closed.
Freeman is right
6.25%
1 6.25%
Nooj is right
43.75%
7 43.75%
Both are right
0%
0 0%
Both are handsome
6.25%
1 6.25%
Neither is handsome or right
25.00%
4 25.00%
Jason Todd dies
18.75%
3 18.75%
Total 16 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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NOOJ VS FREEMAN TDK DEBATE 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
#1



An amazing ending to an amazing fillum...  IN THEORY.  Everything works.  Great montage wrapping up the events...  BUT.  Bale's mouth is open, which obviously inspired the Pete Holmes mouth breathing parody films.  It's a little TOO melodramatic.  A little too goofy.  It never FULLY worked for me.  It reminds me of the Finn and Rose kiss.  On paper everything makes sense. But the execution is...  When Gordon starts telling his son this big elaborate spiel about how great and virtious Batman is...  Brrrrrrrrrrrppphhhhhhhhhhhh ohhhhhhhh boy.

WHO DO YOU STAND WITH?!  The hero TC deserves, but not the one it needs right now?  The FIGHTING FREEMAN?!  Or the why so Serious Lunatic who just wants to put a smile on that face, the NOTORIOUS NOOJ?!

Does the scene work great?  Or is it a great idea with an "OK" execution?!  WILL JASON TODD DIE?! 

You decide!
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#2
I like melodrama!

I like Finn and Rose

I like Batman limping to his bike. Because he can take it.
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#3
I feel like when you argue that you like "saving what we love" you're bad faith arguing ironically. The way a hipster might appreciate something.

I DOUBT your sincerity!
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#4
It's a great ending.

Better than any ending freeman's waifu Joss Whedon did.
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#5
(03-30-2020, 07:36 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: It's a great ending.

Better than any ending freeman's waifu Joss Whedon did.

I mean, Serenity The Cabin in the Woods and Avengers don't have me literally cringing at the screen. Honest question here Stocks, and be TOTALLY honest. When Bale is gasping for breathe and speaking in the growly voice, there's not even a small part of you that giggles inside at how silly it all is?

The Nolan movies never quite found a way to make Batman interacting with the real world not inherently silly.
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#6
stop this...before it's too late...
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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#7
I have voted.

It was not to freeman's benefit.
"Nooj's true feelings on any given subject are unknown and unknowable. He is the butterfly flapping its wings in Peking. He is chaos and destruction and you shall never see his true form." - Merriweather

My Steam ID: yizashigreyspear
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#8
A dopily sincere ending at the end of a dopily sincere movie. One of the reasons I love it!

I do hate the Finn and Rose kiss, though.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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#9
I like that they did a poll it’s fun to vote
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#10
(03-30-2020, 08:31 AM)freeman Wrote:
(03-30-2020, 07:36 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: It's a great ending.

Better than any ending freeman's waifu Joss Whedon did.

I mean, Serenity The Cabin in the Woods and Avengers don't have me literally cringing at the screen.  Honest question here Stocks, and be TOTALLY honest.  When Bale is gasping for breathe and speaking in the growly voice, there's not even a small part of you that giggles inside at how silly it all is?

Not at all, because I buy into its earnestness.
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#11
BaleBat's growly voice speechifying will always be goofy

but I still buy into the storybook-like ending's earnestness
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#12
I love both Whedon and The Dark Knight!

I can’t lose!
"I'd rather have hope...than nothing at all."
-Illyana Rasputin, X-Men: Omega #1

"But the public, knowing what it wanted, spinning happily, let the comic books survive."
-Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

Twitter: @BartLBishop
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#13
I don't know, maybe if you were to just watch the ending with no context you might think it's overdone, but who the hell watches clips of the endings of movies? Psychopaths, that's who. In context it's a terrifically dramatic ending to a wonderful film, that portrays the ultimate tragedy of Batman, in that he'll never be properly rewarded or thanked for everything he does. But he's Batman enough to deal with it.
There are weapons in my hands, my hands are weapons.
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#14
I want to point out that even the slightest agreement in the silliness of the scene, at all, makes your vote cast for my side. That's what this debate is in the end. So by those terms Evi, Nooj and Jones agree with me. I don't care what asterix they put next to their points. Silly is SILLY baby.
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#15
It's a guy who dresses up as a bat to go punch thugs in alleyways. Silliness is kinda baked in.
There are weapons in my hands, my hands are weapons.
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#16
(03-30-2020, 10:17 PM)Jones Wrote: It's a guy who dresses up as a bat to go punch thugs in alleyways. Silliness is kinda baked in.

Correct!

Which leads us to the very logical conclusion that such a "reality" focused take on the character is naturally going to run into issues. Some things are inherently not capable of striking a certain tone without fundamentally compromising elements.
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#17




   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
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#18
Freeman putting maximum effort into making TDK look like it doesn’t work.
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#19
It mostly works!

But completely?

Is any asshole in this thread going to say completely? Like a complete FOOL?!
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#20
(03-31-2020, 12:15 AM)freeman Wrote: It mostly works!

But completely?  

Is any asshole in this thread going to say completely?  Like a complete FOOL?!

[Image: 5EmY.gif]
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#21
Look how goofy!

You're sure that's not footage of Pete Holmes you accidently found doing pucker lips?
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#22
HAROOOOO!
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#23
The Burton films never had that issue.
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#24
(03-31-2020, 01:31 AM)freeman Wrote: Look how goofy!

You're sure that's not footage of Pete Holmes you accidently found doing pucker lips?

[Image: Christian-Bale-Deal-With-It-Reaction-Gif.gif]
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#25
Oh look, a Christian Bale movie with exacting tonal consistency. Every element of that film works together towards one satirical vision. Directed by a woman. Coincidence? I think not.
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#26
[Image: tenor.gif]
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#27
How "real" and "non-silly" was TDK ever really trying to be though?

Surely the opening Joker heist can be read as a statement of intent, and that scene embraces the shit out of its own cartoonishness.
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#28
BATMAN BEGINS literally has a car chase that's basically a souped up Keystone Kops/70s James Bond chase with all the tropes you expect from bumbling cops. All it's missing is an obese sheriff shouting at his underlings for being terrible at their jobs.
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#29
Well that's the thing, it's all a part of the awkward balancing act going on. Nolan wants to look and feel like Heat, but he wants to have cheesy summer action movie one-liners like Gordon saying "I gotta get me one of those!" or the goofy slightly cartoony feeling "Dumb goon" during the Joker heist. That goon would feel perfectly at home in the Burton movies or the animated series which tonally allows for that cartoony oddity.

For me, it never quite comes together as gracefully and seamlessly as say Burtons first two films do.

(03-31-2020, 03:20 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: BATMAN BEGINS literally has a car chase that's basically a souped up Keystone Kops/70s James Bond chase with all the tropes you expect from bumbling cops. All it's missing is an obese sheriff shouting at his underlings for being terrible at their jobs.

Correct. That chase never quite works either. The first hour of the movie is DEADLY serious character study, and all of the sudden we're half a breath away from the Roger Moore slide whistle stunt.
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#30
I think the balance works fine for the most part. Nolan never took Batman as seriously as his fanboys seem to. The reason he took the Batman gig in the first place was so he could scratch that itch of doing a summer blockbuster, as he grew up as a kid watching James Bond, Superman, and Indiana Jones.
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#31
That's fine that he wanted to do that... But you can't tell me the first half of Batman Begins and the second half(which begins EXACTLY at "I'm Batman") are the same movie tonally. It's a VERY jarring tonal leap into summer blockbuster movie land.

Goodbye character study! We're off to have silly goofy fun now! BYE BYE!

If it works for you I'm very glad! But I refuse to accept that the jarring tonal 180 is a great wonderful feature.
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#32
Huh? The first half of the movie is Bruce Wayne training at a school for ninja commandos. IT'S ALREADY SILLY GOOFY FUN! The difference between Nolan's Batman and something like the MCU is that it doesn't feel the need to make quips every 30 seconds in order to point out how silly the whole thing is.

"YEAH, I GET IT MCU, IT'S ALL A LARK! YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP TELLING ME THAT!"
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#33
Your argument isn't whether the scene is silly it's whether it "works great." It does.
I might have been born yesterday sir, but I stayed up all night!
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#34
(03-31-2020, 03:39 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Huh? The first half of the movie is Bruce Wayne training at a school for ninja commandos. IT'S ALREADY SILLY GOOFY FUN! The difference between Nolan's Batman and something like the MCU is that it doesn't feel the need to make quips every 30 seconds in order to point out how silly the whole thing is.

"YEAH, I GET IT MCU, IT'S ALL A LARK! YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP TELLING ME THAT!"

Dood.  The ninja stuff is treated relatively seriously.  The ninjas are deadly serious.  Ra's is deadly serious.  They don't have an obnoxious ninja extra sitting on the sidelines contributing random stupid comedy one liners like those goofy cops later in the film.  Being ninjas doesn't inherently make the first half silly.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that "I'VE GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!" doesn't fit in with the ninja training section?  I shouldn't have to hold your hand and explain this.
(03-31-2020, 03:43 AM)Evi Wrote: Your argument isn't whether the scene is silly it's whether it "works great." It does.
No, my argument as pointed out in the first post is that something that works great ultimately doesn't FULLY work because of these tonal issues.  Goofy one-liners, or the unintentional comedy of Bales duck lips and his silly gasping for breathe voice actively working against the very serious and very dramatic tone of that moment.
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#35
(03-31-2020, 03:51 AM)freeman Wrote:
(03-31-2020, 03:39 AM)mr. stockslivevan Wrote: Huh? The first half of the movie is Bruce Wayne training at a school for ninja commandos. IT'S ALREADY SILLY GOOFY FUN! The difference between Nolan's Batman and something like the MCU is that it doesn't feel the need to make quips every 30 seconds in order to point out how silly the whole thing is.

"YEAH, I GET IT MCU, IT'S ALL A LARK! YOU DON'T HAVE TO KEEP TELLING ME THAT!"

Dood.  The ninja stuff is treated relatively seriously.  The ninjas are deadly serious.  Ra's is deadly serious.  They don't have an obnoxious ninja extra sitting on the sidelines contributing random stupid comedy one liners like those goofy cops later in the film.  Being ninjas doesn't inherently make the first half silly.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that "I'VE GOTTA GET ME ONE OF THOSE!" doesn't fit in with the ninja training section?  I shouldn't have to hold your hand and explain this.

I'd say it's treating it more earnestly than seriously. Much like how SUPERMAN began with the Krypton and Smallville sequences as being somewhat straightforward and dramatic, and then once Clark moves to Metropolis the snarky dialogue is cranked up from 0 to 11.
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